skydived19006

I fear some DZs aren't looking at the big picture by requiring everyone to have one. Ultimately it is the jumper who's responsible for saving their own life. Since when did this ever change? AADs are just a great insurance policy for freefall collisions. Maybe DZOs are looking at a picture you don't even see? On some public airports a skydiving fatality might be the last straw and cause the DZ to be forced off. Some DZOs have looked at the "big picture" and decided that requiring digital (as opposed to Cypres, big pictuer is that Cypres isn't the only modern AAD) AADs as one step in reducing the chances of a fatality on their DZ. Other DZOs may just be soft hearted, and think that requiring AADs might cause them to attend one less funeral of a friend. I know of a DZO that has instituted digital AAD requirement, won't allow you to jump a rig that is out of date, or over tso on either the reserve or harness (maybe this DZO is also concerned about the pilots rating as well?), and has instituted a wing loading restriction. This has had the affect of driving a lot of fun jumpers away form this DZ, and you might argue has cost the DZ revenue. Maybe others would do the same, but fear loosing business more than they fear loosing friends? I think that DZOs that put safety above dollars should be commended! BTW, I'm a DZO and I have no such policies. Infer whatever you like about that! Martin AC DZ Wichita Kansas Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

To avoid conflict of interest and more drama - those board members that are DZOs did not vote. It was not a representation of their thoughts on this topic. Imagine what could be said if a DZO did vote to revoke the GM of their competition? That would be just as unethical. I'm glad that they did step out when the votes were casted. Which leads to the question.Should DZOs be voted onto the board to begin with? That could probably be a new thread. Maybe we shouldn't vote skydivers to the BOD either for fear of conflict of interest? Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

That was fun, one point you're missing in the equation is that not every voucher/gift certificate is redeemed. If they were extremely up front with the no refund policy, it wouldn't be a problem. I've heard various percentages thrown out as to how many gift certificates are not redeemed, and that money is all theirs to keep! So in a perfect world, they would have "taken" a little on both sides, and kept every bit of the non redeemed certificate money. For the most part "everyone goes home in a limousine", save a few people who changed their mind and were upset about the refund policy (which they were informed of up front) I sell gift certificates at my DZ. I'm not a big proponent of it, we make it extremely clear that they are not refundable, suggest alternatives, etc. Some people simply insist that they have to have the gift certificate so we sell them. Every year we also get the "sob story", someone was diagnosed with some horrible disease and now can't jump, the intended jumper just refuses to jump and now they can't buy food or shoes for the kids because they spent the money on a skydive that nobody wants, etc (these are actual examples). And every year we refund a couple of them anyway. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

As I understand it this suit if won by Skydive Arizona, the defendants would be required to repay damages by three fold. That said, how much actual damage SDAZ can “prove” is going to be interesting. It may amount to a moral victory, and cause Skyride to cease and desist within the state of Arizona? I’ve heard estimates of $100,000 in legal fees as a starting point to pursue the suit; I could see the damages being significantly less than that. Might Skyride be forced to pay both side legal fees? Will this suit if won by SDAZ set precedent and make it easier (cheaper) to be pursued within other states? Attorneys care to speculate? I defiantly do not mean to imply that Larry shouldn’t be pursuing his law suit; I actually admire him more for doing it!!! Also, anyone who thinks they are not affected by this whole thing may eventually wake up to smell some “new coffee”. I’d heard that the Skyride boys were looking at opening/buying a DZ in Missouri. If they do, I’d also bet that they would do all within their power to dominate the state, and force other DZs out. Envision that scenario happening in your state, and maybe the whole issue strikes just a little closer to home. Could just be that the little family DZ will go the way of the family farm, and the buggy whip industry. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Ok, I'd say that the shower issue was addressed this year, so in the words of Clint Eastwood "let's move on", please! Anyone seen Mark (beer truck ombudsman) lately I think we left him at the beer truck. We arrived Wednesday afternoon, and left Monday noon, believe it or not Mark actually found time to squeeze in three skydives (although I think in protest, two tandems with his gf, and one other tandem by special request) Anyway, Here's a couple of posts form our DZ forum. I think it sums it up fairly well. Posted - 07 Sep 2005 : 6:56:25 PM Where is all the chatter about Freaks and all the great jumps everyone got to make this year? Tell me please that I missed nothing. It will make me feel much better. Ned Posted - 08 Sep 2005 : 08:26:09 AM It was just terrible !! You wouldn't want to go. The 14 to 15K altitude jumps with a 12 to 14 minute ride in the skyvan and twin otters, the extra altitude "sights", the beer, the food, the 8 to 13 way attempts with a few successful (remember we're a bunch of Kansas Cessna 4 way "experts"), the naked women, the comradely, seeing old friends, etc., etc. It was horrible, just horrible! Please, please, please don't make me go again !! Feel better now ? Tony Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I also run the student and coaching schools as well as manage the instructors. Chuting Star Rigging Loft is listed as a professional skydiving school. Mike Ok, I understand. It’s too bad you have to be associated Skyride! Everything I’ve seen regarding you Mike has always been very positive! Maybe you should reconsider your associates? Martin AC DZ Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Sept. 2 at this point, although there is a review process in order on Chutingstar's group membership. Mike I don’t quite understand what the advantage for a rigging service to have a USPA Group Membership is. Can you inform me? Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

They're not going to call you, go ahead and call them back. If you do it sometime other than "peek" you should be able to get right through I would think. Then report back about how the "discount" works out for you! Actually if they are unable to keep staff it may seriously hamper their ability to screw potential skydivers. I wouldn't ever encourage anyone to call and give their call center people a hard time, but if people did they might "reconsider" their jobs? I for one would much rather be pushing french fries at McDonalds, than to have to listen to people inform me of what a lowlife, thief I was working the Skyride boiler room! Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I say "I plan to live forever, or die trying! Looks like fishing (drowning) is more dangerous than skydiving after all! Whenever the subject of dying skydiving comes up, I point out that fishing is more dangerous. Virtually everyone knows of someone who died in a boating/swimming/drowning (which I lump into "fishing") accident. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

That’s funny, they’ll give you %15 off, plus $40 discount, ironically the price will still be $240 or whatever it normally is once you add in the instruction, gear rental, etc. etc. Call them and check into the discount! They’re generally very good with customer service! That is good up to the point that they have your credit card number. Call and press for the “final answer” regarding price, you’ll have to really push for them to give you the price with all the additional charges without giving a credit card number. Whatever you do, do not give them a credit card number! Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I’m the “Kansas DZO that controls my Yahoo Search bill to $20 a month. Ironically I have to push it up to the $20 a month minimum spend point. I also spend $10 +/- on Google Adwords. I do not push general terms such as “Skydive”, “Skydiving”, that’s where someone like Jan comes in. It would do me little good to pay for someone in Florida to see my paid ad. The whole Skyride issue spurred me to do a few things to help my internet marketing. At some point I found Jan Meyer, I can personally attest that she looked at my site and suggested a few fixes. She didn’t charge me, and it didn’t occur to me to send her money (Damn cheep DZOs! lol). It makes me sick to see the USPA site in such a screwed up state! That site is perfectly positioned to be at the top of virtually every search for the words “Skydive” or “Skydiving”. All it would take is any average high school graduate these days to work on things a bit. I know for a fact that Jan has tried to help, made suggestions, and has simply ran up against a brick wall (I think that “wall” may be going away). Thanks for all the help in the past, present, and future Jan! Martin Air Capital Drop Zone Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Ok here’s a unique idea, never believe anything you’re told by anyone at Skyride. I’ve called them myself as a potential tandem customer, I pressed for the location of the DZ they had in my area, and they gave me vague directions to… guess who…My own DZ. And no, I don’t take Skyride business. You’d have to actually be at a DZ, and see people trading Skyride certificates to ever really know. I’d almost bet that very few DZs advertise that they do business with the devil. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

There are five small Cessna DZs in Kansas. All five have agreed to participate by bringing one (or two) of their Cessna 182s over to Air Capital Drop Zone for the First Annual Kansas Cessna Boogie. This year it’s a one day only boogie on Saturday September 24, we’re charging no registration (who wants to pay registration to jump their own 182) so it’s a no frills boogie as well. Anyone in the area (or not) is more than welcome to attend. The basic idea is for all of us in Kansas to get together, have a good time, and get to know each other a little better. You want to talk about cooperation between drop zones, this little boogie requires the whole state to shut down their skydiving businesses for a Saturday! KSUPC has already requested to host the Second Annual Kansas Cessna Boogie. Participating DZs: Air Capital Drop Zone Kansas State University Parachute Club Skydive Kansas Skydive Suppesville Skydive Wichita Martin AC DZ Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Hey Chris, This is defiantly a tough decision! We currently have a student that did 15 practice throws (we train IAD). We finally cleared him for H&P, he went unstable, and fell to Cypress fire. He was obviously shaken, landed off field, and dislocated his elbow. He really wants to jump again, and at this point it looks like we’re going to do a lot of harness time with him, and go back to practice pulls. My fear is that if ever faced with a malfunction he’ll brain lock again, leaving five kids with one less parent. Oh, don’t send your student to me, and I’ll promise not to send mine your way. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Ok, a few inaccuracies here… This one is nitpicking, but my waiver allows Coaches to work with students only after the H&P. You say we formally let Jumpmasters work with freefall students, where I came form Jump Masters were allowed to do absolutely everything short of teaching the FJC. They thought with no supervision form jump 1 on, and were allowed to dispatch students starting at jump #1. I don’t know what your definition of “a bunch” is, but at a little Midwest DZ where we have less than 50 students take the FJC a year, and less than five get to the point where a Coach would be allowed to work with them it would take 10 years to get “a bunch” of student jumps in under my definition. Ok, so you’re an IAD Instructor and your students goes unstable in freefall on a 30 second delay. Explain what an Instructor can (is allowed to) do for that student that a Coach can not, please! Read the proficiency cards for both a Coach and an IAD/SL instructor; fill me in on where an Instructor is required to perform any freefall skills above that of the Coach. Now I’ll be the first to admit that a Coach with “a bunch” of student training jumps will have far better free fall skills, but again we go back to the 10 year thing. Chasing, and dodging a student is excellent freefall skill building. Where USPA turns the Coach lose with students is in my estimation where it gets a little scary. “Ok, I’m going to lay a base and you’re going to swoop down and dock on me”, you damn sure better be able to get the hell out of the way of these students! Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I'd really love to demo one, but I'm not going to purchase one with the intent of returning it in order to do so. Seems that if they had a dealer over here with 2 or 3 demo canopies circulating the country they might sell a bunch of canopies, that is if everyone's half as impressed as you are. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

A lot of DZ websights use the USPA logo as a "seal of approval" for the people looking for a "qualified, safe etc" DZ. Does the BOD decision mean that skyrides DZ's won't be able to use the Logo? R.I.P. That is seriously ironic! I once asked USPA if I could use (get them to send me a copy of) the USPA logo, the response was basically NO. They take the stance of “protecting” the use of the USPA logo. So the irony is that if what you say is true, those DZs are using the USPA logo without permission (intellectual property issue?), and now you think that because USPA has pulled group and individual membership the Skyride Guys will cease using USPAs logo because they no longer have permission! For the most part the customers lured in by the bait and switch, boiler room tactics of the Skyride operators are not exactly “doing their leg work”, or McDonald’s mentality, as in I want it, and I want it now!!! Whether the particular boiler room they’re connected to is a USPA Group Member isn’t exactly going to be the first question that comes across their lips. If the customer did enough research to even know that there was a national association, I would guess that 98% of them would never be lured into the trap in the first place. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Well, I guess I can now get off my soap box! And this sets a precedent for any other IAD/SL DZs! As Gary said, if enough of us apply for this waiver, they might change the BSRs. The BOD meeting was this last weekend, and my people earned their Coach Rating the weekend before. I did end up submitting individual names that this waiver applies to, it's not an open waiver for my DZ. Martin Air Capital Drop Zone Wichita Kansas "Martin, I'm glad you asked because I was going to contact you and forgot. The waiver was approved with very little discussion in the committee, and without any at all when voted on by the full BOD. The main part of the discussion in the committee was related to me suggesting that we change the related BSR. This shows that it is good to do the detailed work up front so that there are no questions from the BOD members. If you don't hear from Mike soon I suggest contacting him so you can put those Coaches to work this weekend. Good job. If more people would ask for a similar waiver, the BOD would realize that the related BSR might just need changing. :) -- Gary Peek" Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I wouldn't do this if I thought he would care, but here's a post form another forum by Tim Bucher. I have been using straddle benches since 1997 when I got my first Caravan. Since then, I have made sets for 5 different Caravans and for 6 different Otters. I only own one Super Otter now and have had the same benches in it since 2001. The easiest way to make a bench seat is to go to a commercial foam products supplier and buy a block of high density styrofoam. The stock size is 4 ft x 8 ft x 12 inches. This needs to be cut into 12 inch sections which makes your bench seat 12 inch x 12 inch x 8 ft. long. I have always ordered the blocks cut for me, because I could not figure out a good way to accurately cut it myself. They then need to be completely wrapped in an approved carpet or fabric. Approved means aircraft grade or FAA burn tested. We also put foam padding on one side as the styrofoam is actually quite hard and uncomfortable to sit on, yet it will still deteriorate from butt imprints over time. Installing some padding solves both problems. The entire covering is glued on,which requires glue that will not dissolve the styrofoam, and the ends are overlapped and tuck fitted like regular upholstery or carpet is done. On the forward outboard end, we have hand tacked a piece of tubular nylon to the vertical corner edge of the carpet and have a metal snap fitting at the other end to secure the bench in place. This was suggested by an FAA inspector and we did it even though the benches are heavy enough that they just do not move much. They might make it to the door in a Caravan, but I can not see it happening in an Otter. Regardless, they definitely will not leave if there is a lanyard attaching them. We also have a full length/width floor pad made of a high density closed cell foam which is wrapped in the same approved carpet. It is about 2 inches thick and is very comfortable on which to sit or kneel. The combination of benches and floor pad weighs less than 100 lbs, if I recall correctly. We also have two plastic milk crates wrapped in the same fabric which sit between the forward end of the bench and the cockpit bulkhead with the open end of the crate facing inboard. In these we store the required aircraft paperwork, the required cabin fire extinguisher and spare goggles and altis for students. They are both reachable from the pilots seat. Since the space closest to the cockpit bulkhead is are usually occupied by tandems, the tandem rig basically is supported by the carton, and the instructors butt, is on the forward end of the bench. This makes the benches essentially 9 ft plus a little, and they can hold 6-7 skydivers. As for legality, I have had my Caravan and my Otter ramp checked at several DZs in several different jurisdictions, and looked at by my FSDO nearly every year. A few inspectors asked about them, and I told them that they were not an attached seat, berth, or appliance so they should just be considered the same as a floor cushion or interior padding for the comfort of the occupant. Then I told them that the real value is from a safety standpoint. First, it puts more weight toward the center of the aircraft by allowing tighter seating in that area (This is more important in a Caravan than an Otter. I worked the W&B on Caravans every which way you can think, and benches are pretty much mandatory to fly more than 13 in a short body, or 16 in a long body. There is no other way to get the people compressed into the center of the airplane otherwise). Second, it allows the seat belts to really function as designed in the event of a crash (we use Hooker single point belts), Third, it offers spinal protection by offering some vertical compressability between the jumpers body and the floor. It will also keep the people in the aft section somewhat seperated from the people on the bench and protect against horizontal compression. Fourth, it allows for much quicker aircraft evacuation whether on the ground or in the air. When you explain these things it is pretty difficult for any inspector to say 'take them out'. Especially if you ask them to put it in writing, so that the lawyers will know who made you remove this safety enhancing floor cushion. An inspector may argue that they can not be used unless specifically TSOd for the purpose, and I can not think of a way to argue against that, other than using the same logic and common sense previously stated. No inspector has ever gone past the point of agreeing with me that they are a good idea. However, if you already have problems with your FSDO, it may be difficult to win this argument. If asked about combustibility and fumes, many people (including FSDO inspectors) do not realize that aircraft interior foams and fillers will burn and produce noxious fumes. They are supposed to be wrapped or covered in approved fabrics and carpets so that they will not be the first thing to burn. In theory this will allow people to escape prior to breathing poisonous gases. In airliner crashes I am not so sure if it really matters that much. In a skydiving Twin Otter crash, with nearly empty fuel tanks in the belly and one of the strongest airframes ever built surrounding me, my last worry is about fumes from the benches. In fact, each person is wearing 20 plus pounds of combustible nylon which will melt and give off a noxious smoke when it burns. My argument is that if it gets hot enough to ignite the styrofoam wrapped in fire resistant carpet, you are probably all going to burn to death from nylon melting to your skin anyway. I would rather have a chance at surviving the crash and getting out of the wreckage by being seated and restrained in a more advantageous fashion. In my opinon, my chances of surviving and getting out are highly improved by sitting on a crushable bench seat with a properly attached and tightened Hooker single point seat belt. Of course I want everyone else on board to be wearing the same belt and have it properly attached which means through the main lift web by your gut or shoulder and made snug in a straight line to the attach fitting. I have Hookers in my C182 as well as in my Otter, and would not consider anything else until someone comes up with something even better. I honestly do not think that there is a worse way to fly jumpers than using the old fashioned caterpillar style seating on the bare floor with a cheap surplus non adjusting seat belt around the jumper or placed haphazardly through the harness. I am to the point in my skydiving career that I will not jump aircraft set up like that anymore. As a matter of fact there are a lot of aircraft and setups I won't jump anymore, but that is altogether another subject. Fayard has the design and approved paperwork for a fixed aluminum bench seat that is similar in size and function to ours, and has been given field approvals in Otters and Caravans. They seem to be a pretty good product, but the truth is that I would rather have the crushability of the styrofoam in the event of a crash. Fayard also can install the troop style seats which work pretty well and also provide for very good use of the restraints. In my opinion, they are a royal pain for tandem operations, and I would choose the bench seats any day over troop seats. Both, however, are a quantum leap beyond seating everyone on the floor like we did in the old days. From an operational standpoint, the ease of flying tandems should be obvious. We seldom fly more than 6 tandems per load, so being able to seat 3 pairs per side makes for very quick and smooth exiting. Even with 8 per load, the first tandem instructor can often fit on the aft edge of the bench with his student on the floor. He can then go straight to his knees or bring the student up to him for the hookup. There is no fishing around for attachment straps, everything is right there where the instructor can see and feel it. There is no need to stand up or move the student up or place him/her on your lap. After using benches since 1997, my instructors would probably go on strike if they had any other setup. On exit, we slide one after another to the end of the bench, stand up and take three steps to the door and we are out of there. With AFFs and coaching, the instructor(s) can sit behind the student or beside him/her on the opposite bench. It is far easier to gear check a student who is on a bench than one crammed between other jumpers on the floor. The student does not have to be made to stand there all hunched over while waiting for his/her turn to exit. This is a time of major anxiety for students and the less discomfort they experience, the better. There is also far less opportunity for snagged bridles, handles, etc. etc. Another advantage is quick loading. At least 12 of the people getting on board simply climb aboard, turn around and sit down. There is no fishing for belts or moving someone's feet, knees and elbows. The difference in comfort is incredible and it makes more room on the floor for the remaining 8 or 10 who do sit on the floor. We actually have 26 seatbelts installed in the Otter and 6 in the C182 so that there are always enough belts available regardless of the combinations of tandems and big and little jumpers who take up variable amounts of space. The only time that our benches have gotten in the way is when we had a 16 way team practicing. The benches did interfere with their door jam a little bit. What we did was either remove them for a few jumps, or disconnect the snap on the lanyard and let the jumpers move both benches to one side and stack them. Since they were the only ones on the plane it was no big deal. Another very important safety item is that the seatbelts close to the door must have the adjustment lanyard tacked down so that the user can not make it out the door with the belt still attached. This is the only disadvantage I have seen to the Hooker belts and that is that they are so comfortable and passive, jumpers will try to leave with them attached. Dangling outside the aircraft with a seatbelt attached to you is a very lonely place to be -or so I am told :-) Hope this is helpful. Tim Butcher AerOhio Skydiving Center, Inc. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

You can contact Jump Shack to demo a Tandem Firebolt. American made and based in Deland,Florida as well. Not a bad idea, I'd be interested in flying the Firebolt! Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

Update, I ordered a V357 (this is a bit of a cross post, but I wanted to bring this one back to the top) I wanted a V3 to put a PD218R, and an Icarus Crossfire 159, if you look at the sizing there is no such beast. I ordered a demo PD176RM (set up as a main) as Egon suggested, couldn’t get a stand up landing out of it (240 lbs geared up, dead center accuracy just not pretty). I decided that maybe I should buy a PD193R, but looking at the sizing charts the mains listed in the 2 containers specifying a PD193R (V353, V355 both take a PD230, etc), are the same mains listed for the smaller of the 2 containers specifying the PD218R (V357 takes a PD230, V358 takes a PD260 etc.). I already own a PD218R, so I just confirmed the V357. So the main will be a little “easy to pack”, I’ll bet my life that it won’t kill me. Yeah I know, the two canopies out issue has been covered. Never did hear from Bill on this one. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I was in the middle of exactly the same issue, and there is a string I started here http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1679945;search_string=bill%20booth;#1679945 titled “Do Skydivers Care About Safety” Bill Booth. I wanted a V3 to put a PD218R, and an Icarus Crossfire 159, if you look at the sizing there is no such beast. I ordered a demo PD176RM (set up as a main), couldn’t get a stand up landing out of it (240 lbs geared up, dead center accuracy just not pretty). I decided that maybe I should buy a PD193R, but looking at the sizing charts the mains listed in the 2 containers specifying a PD193R (V353, V355 both take a PD230, etc), are the same mains listed for the 2 containers specifying the PD218R (V357 takes a PD230, V358 takes a PD260 etc.). I already own a PD218R, so I just confirmed the V357. So the main will be a little “easy to pack”, I’ll bet my life that it won’t kill me. Oh, I’ve been all thorough the two canopies out issues with mismatched canopies. I figure I’m better off with a “reasonably” sized reserve. Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

You’re absolutely right about all the customs issues, and I understand. That said, it would be smart I would thing that if they’re interested in selling canopies in the US market that they build at least a small dealer network over here. If they had a few demo canopies circulating this country it might make it easier to sell to us. PD, and Precision, (a few other small players) are basically the only canopy manufacturers in the US of A. I would be that most skydivers don’t even realize that Icarus is in Spain, that Aerodyne (PISA) is in South Africa, etc. Guess I’ll have to purchase either Precision Tandem mains, or PDs Sigma since customs are such a problem? Are there any canopy manufacturers in Canada or Mexico? With the North American Free Trade Agreement it should be like shipping out of California. I'll stop at that, I'm starting to push the political. Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

That's funny, if I'm ever in Europe it'll be a vacation. I run a DZ (which means I don't get to take vacations anyway), skydiving isn't generally what I do when on vacation. I'm happy with Icarus, I'd like to check out some of the many others now available, but if they can't get me a demo, screw em! Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ

I checked into getting a demo HOP, they suggested I buy one and if I don't like it return it. I guess it's a demo with a $2000 deposit. No thanks, if that's the policy, I'll just stick with my Icarus! Martin Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ