Chrisky

Well, i never had a PC in tow, hesitation or anything with my throwout yet (in 300+ jumps). A horseshoe mal is usually the dbag and bridle out with the PC still in some way attached to the container, so you can't get rid of a horseshoe by looking over your shoulder... Probably you meant a PC hesitation, where the PC is caught in the burble. I will not say it can't happen with a throwout, the point for my decision to stick to Throwout (and recommending it to others) is that if you pull the throwout out to the side like you are supposed to, you always pull the PC INTO the relative wind and not into the burble, whereas the PC on a pullout system is located pretty much inside or on the rim of the burble. This, imho, increases the possibility of the PC being caught there causing a PC hesitation. And for me, that is a situation out of the ordinary deployment sequence. Extraordinary situations at pulltime, no matter how easily cleared, are an unnecessary stress factor and decrease my safety during the jump. Summing up, as i see it, you can have problems on Pullout systems by their design, and problems on throwout systems by not throwing out properly. One thing can be easily changed, the other is there to stay (or be modded by a rigger...). But right, personal preference. I just can't see any advantages over a throwout. The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

Funny, we just had a poll and discussion on this at the Stammtisch (german forum). Badlock posted this info (of which' source i have no idea). Sorry i have no detailed source info, but i think the issues pointed out in the correspondence make sense no matter what. If anyone has a more detailed info or knowledge of the subject, feel free to correct or criticize me at any time. So here it goes: The following is a series of letters regarding pull-out pilot chutes. Hello TK: (at the Relative Workshop) I don't know what your opinion is about pullout pilot chutes, but here is mine, in response to a question regarding rig conversion. I, personally, am against pull out's. (20+ years, jumper, pilot, rigger) As predicted, I have seen (watched) two near fatalities as the result of pullouts. Both were main-reserve entanglements. In both cases the PC's were held long enough to allow the bridle to half hitch around the pilot chute causing a PC malfunction. When I say long enough, I mean as short as maybe one half second or less! This may not seam very long, but consider the action/speed of the bridle being out next to the inflated PC. (perceived malfunction rate?) With a hand deploy PC you are holding the apex of the PC. There is only a horseshoe starting at your hand, and ending at the closing flap. When you release the PC the total horseshoe remains taught until pilot chute inflation. I have held on to my hand deploy for five seconds on several jumps with no problem. Would you want to do that with a pullout? As far as concern about the pin not being pulled? A 28" pilot chute has at least 70 lbs. of drag at 120 MPH. What's the likely hood of a misrouted bridle on a late-model rig? Buy the way, in both cases of near fatalities, both jumpers pulled their reserves around 1000 feet. In both cases there were entanglements with the main-bag that deployed at reserve pull. They both got reserve openings below 300 feet! On one, "garbage of the main" was pushed down to the jumper by the reserve slider, blinding the jumper! Sounds like fun time, HA! (bonus days included) I was witness to both of these jumps! Dave Brownell Mesa/Eloy AZ Dave, I'm with you on all counts. Here's a fact or two you can add to your list. We've done a lot of tests to determine the strength of the average jumper in the pull-out configuration. The strongest guys in our shop were not half as strong as the drag of a standard hand-deploy pilot chute. No contest there. In an ideal world, a hand-deploy is always thrown, and should not be held onto unless you discover someone over your back at that very moment. But when you must hold it, the worst that can happen is that the drag on the bridle pulls the pin. (which is what you get on every pull-out deployment!) If you're stable, the bagged canopy will stay on your back. (Dave, all of the maladies you mention are absolutely true.) With a pull-out pilot chute, you don't get the great, aggressive throw capability of the hand-deploy because you loose ½ of the throwing stroke just trying to pull the pin out of the locking loop. Without a good throw, the pilot chute could end up on your back in the burble. I personally have about 300 jumps on a pull-out system and on many of these jumps, I experienced pilot chute hesitations. I went back to hand-deploy and have not had a hesitation since. Dave, you're absolutely correct when it comes to two canopy entanglements. Here's how the scenario goes: They pull the handle and pin and then let go of the PC. The burble sucks the PC onto their back. They fail to look over their shoulder hard enough so the PC stays there. Eventually, and usually quite low, they decide to pull the reserve. Both canopies will usually deploy one after the other. And here's another problem. Most jumpers with pull-out systems loose their handle at least once during their career. Some don't ever find it on that given jump and end up pulling their reserve. Some don't pull anything. Before the days of AAD's, a significant number of jumpers bounced, Jeannie McCombs being one of the notables. I'm sure I could go on an on about the virtues of H/D over P/O, but life is short and so is the list of jumpers using the PULL-OUT System. Talk to you later, TK Edited to add: Having jumped a Pullout a couple of jumps myself, i prefer a throw out, as i see the deployment sequence of PC->Bridle->Pin->Dbag uninterupted. And from habit, of course. The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

Yep, but there are scanning services with scanners that can scan any number of pages automatically (used almost exclusively by hireable document management companies i assume). I once scanned an old booklet, ran it through optical character recognition and then edited the contents for spelling errors (from OCR). Lots of work, not even imagery. I guess it would be a lot of work to edit it (talking weeks here), but due to the output format the actual medium to be sold would be really cheap and for the rather low price of 100 bucks more people, and presumably not only riggers, would buy it. Question is, make it a digital image collection of an existing book or a convenient resource with nifty features (computers just can't search for words in image files...). Next question is, would it sell enough to make a profit? Tough question. Thats the one for the businessman. Always thinking of becoming a rigger one day, i would really like to see something like that out there. But remember, i am not a rigger, so i don't really know how much the computer-convenience thing matters to them. I just think when you do it, do it as right as to make good use of the tools the computer provides. Would also help sell it i guess. Long topic line, btw... The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

Not being a rigger but having an idea of the work involved to get all the stuff together and set it up properly, i'd say 80 bucks would be a good deal, maybe 100. I guess it would sell well, which i based my price guess on That is having updated old, bad photos replaced with clear new illustrations. No yearly update fee, but an update CD (for little money) whenever there are enough new systems out there. That being PDF or HTML. Both have the ability to hyperlink, PDF even inside the open document. Edited to add: Simply scanning in the book wouldn't be worth 20 bucks. The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

Had that one last year on a borrowed rig... Nice big blueish bruise on the inner side of my bicep from the smacking handle during the opening... The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

Make that two years. The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

Damn, you spoiled me! YES! I think it is stupid to spend money on something you will not be able to use for an unpredictable amount of time. I don't buy a car at age twelve, hoping i might be able to drive it before i'm 18 (or 16 or whatever). I buy stuff when i know i can use it. Right now, the thing is just catching dust and the DOM is growing older and older. Sounds like a good deal for used gear coming up in a couple of years. (the "DOM 9/91, but only 50 jumps, great condition" kind) That as apart from the whole wingloading preach. Sorry, i couldn't resist... Exaggerated? Sure! The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

I assume the last post is asking why vertical separation cannot be relied upon, but is then referred to for FF going before AFF/TD. The difference is: between a 4way team deploying @ 800 m and freeflyers opening @ 900 m, vertical separation (which you can't rely on) is 2 seconds @terminal. between freefliers opening @ 900 m and a AFF/TD opening @ 1500 m vertical separation (which you can't rely on) is 12 seconds @terminal. You can't be sure to deal with a mal in 2 or 12 seconds, but you are less likely to fall into someone when forced to cut away up high. When cutting away 100 m above an open canopy of another jumper (->no HORIZONTAL sep.), you will be under your reserve below him or have crashed with him. Not so if you're more than 500m above. (Considering well trained emergency procedures) If you always open @ 1500 m, i will have no problem whatsoever going first (before you that is) as a FFer. Then again, you might still come crashing down on me having cut away. But the probability is just way lower because you have so much more time until you are on my level. Horizontal separation is the key. Bellies out first! The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

As a lot of very good advice has already been given, here are my 2 cents. Build a packing routine. Do it the same every time, and you are less likely to forget something. The first three things i do after dropping my rig is: 1. Stow breaks 2. open slider 3. cock PC Then its off to the standard Propack, and when i put the canopy in the d-bag i can see that the holding line is longer than the collapsing line(PC cocked, Checkpoint 1). When i put the Pin through the loop, i check the "eye" in the bridle (PC cocked, Checkpoint 2). If in doubt, i can get a pincheck at any time. The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

I do have the stainless and "the ring", but if i had to give one up, i'd keep the ring harness. The stainless option is mostly something for the looks (had i learned this earlier, i had probably saved the money..). Definitely go for the articulated harness, it snugs so sweet to your body, you hardly feel it. Again, i love it! The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

Not being a rigger myself, some riggers complain and others love it. It comes from the way their freebag is designed, and from my experience, no rigger ever complained when i payed the repack... And i love my Wings, btw... The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

The handle on the right is for cutting away a malfunctioning main, The handle on the left for releasing your reserve. Just in case... The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

The TSA letter states AAD, not Cypres... The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

Awesome Pictures!! Flew over the DZ once in a small student C-182 as a passenger with my cousin on his refreshing flight hour he needed to take, and was really sad that i couldn't stop by. Looked like a really nice place to jump. What planes do they operate? Is that the DZs Otter on the photo? The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

The Force you must use. Full of it your new canopy is. Control, control and patience you need, time help will you.. Know what you mean, my Main only has like thirty on it and still packs like a b*tch.. The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

I just stumbled over a calculation (in german, and no, not from Airtec...) comparing the total cost per year for both aads. (sorry, too lazy to look up the link). The vigil was up front with 78 Euros/year based on a 20 year lifetime (Battery has to be changed by a rigger in Germany, who knows why...). Cypres was 118 Euros/yr, based on the 12 yr lifetime. If you would calculate the vigil on a 12 yr lifetime, it would only be 3 Euros cheaper. That is with battery changes by a rigger (for money ofcourse..). So the thing is that the Vigil will only be cheaper when it really outlasts the 12 yr lifetime, which (although i do not doubt that) has yet to be proven... I'd think about switching if iever buy a new rig in the next 12 yrs (just got a new one, so chances are... slim..) The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

Make that "(Enter anyone/thing on this planet) suffers just so Bush can (whatever)" The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

What should a pilot do with a dangerous object? Hijack the plane?!?! Ah... Wait! Think.... The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

Enjoy that little extra adrenaline, but keep your mind... The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

Did you check all the tuck-aways in the flaps, the pocket for the reserve packing card etc? Usually there's a label with DOM and Serial-# on it stitched to the rig. The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

Waaay better. Sure, there was a reported misfire on the french RW team last year, but were there a new ones? Where, when and how? That's what i'm curious about. Edit: I'm just a too slow typist... The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

Having jumped at DZs varying their exit orders, so i have quite some personal reference on which order i prefer from personal experience. Ever since most DZs have adapted to the "big and slow to small and fast, then highpullers" order, i had a lot less close calls/"drop-bys" under canopy. FF don't go out first... The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

Believing doesn't help much... except for a cleric. Anyone actually has the Mag and can give more details? The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

*slightly offtopic* A Wings for 3700? H/C alone?? I can hardly imagine you can push a Wings to such a high price without covering every inch in custom embroidery... i have three pieces of custom embroidery, tiedye and all options, and it cost me about 3k straight. And don't even feel my legstraps anymore... Used to get bruises like that on my old container (same manufacturer as your current rig) when i had slammin' openings... The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

Sure there is! Anything higher! The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...