Botellines

Just my 2 euro-cents... Some people has wondered why we euros care so much about who americans choose as POTUS. First you have to understand that Europe have had its share of wars and most of us are quite fed up with them. Every country has its history, but just in Spain, we have had to deal recently with a devastating civil war, 20 years of dictatorship, 30 years of terrorism that has just gotten worse. If your president had started his war by himself, we would still be entitled to our opinion, but we wouldn´t be so loud. Bush has blackmailed, threaten and bribe other countries to do war with him. We, europeans, do not apreciate it. We don´t want any more wars, and you must admit that the reasons for this war are doubtful at best. We wanted Kerry, because he wasn´t bush. We don´t care about your internal politics, we DO care about a foreign policy that deeply affect Europe without taking it into consideration. You may have started this war convinced that it was necesary, but Europe (the people) never saw it that way. And still thinks it was a mistake. It is normal that Bush is not well liked. The funny thing is that if it wasn´t because Bush´s foreign policies affect us more than what you probably realize, i would love this dude. He is making the Mirage rig i was going to buy cheaper and cheaper. Now I have a question, other than war and terrorism, do you americans think that Bush is doing a good job as a president. Please forget for a moment war, Kerry and terrorism.

Everybody is a law abiding citizen until they stop being a law abiding citizen. And when that comes, i much prefer that those ex-law abiding citizens do not have a gun at hand reach.

I am positive. There is many other couuntries who has a constitution similar to yours and therefore allows for a similar freedom of speech and are not hated that much if at all by the muslim world. No one has committed a terrorist attack against france for forbidding religious simbols in public schools. And that directly affects a lot of muslims. I never said it was Bush´s fault. It started way before, and he did continue with those policies. Let´s see, The U.S sold WMD to Irak so they could be used against Iran (another muslim country) The U.S gives Apache helicopters to Israel so they can use them against muslims in palestina.ç And you wonder why they are upset? The U.S bomb Afghanistan, a muslim country (I am not too upset about this though, no sympathy for the taliban). The U.S bombs Irak and kill thousands of innocent civilians... Do you really wonder why they hate you so much?

Sorry, that is Bullshit. No one hates the U.S because you like freedom or democracy. That is just an slogan your president likes to say to make the population hate whoever you need to hate at the moment. Make no mistake, if half the muslim world hates the U.S is because of many years of wrong foreign policies. I mean wrong for them. For god´s shake, what the hell did you expect when you econmically supported and still does Israel and Irak. Did you really expected to be well like by their enemies?

When your elected leader sais: "with us or against us" you don´t get to wonder why so many people is against you. Most of the countries you perceive as anti-american (ie France, Germany) would have been quite happy maintening their neutrality and not taking part moral or otherwise in your Irak adventure.

Well said!!!!

I wouldn´t care the slightest if the government reads my personal emails as i have nothing to hide. However there is some companies that would be very interested in spyware that tracks p2p programs. After all, to install programs obtained via p2p without license is illegal, so it would be very easy for the police to find out who is doing that and take proper actions I think pretty much everybody at some point or another has used a piece of software without license or heard a song downloaded from the net. Not me of course

clicky So that it happens in every war makes it alright... Damn reporters... always killing all the fun... You never asked me that particular question, so my silence must speak volumes only to you. As i have said in some other thread, although not to you specifically, No i have NOT been in the military. I am the guy who gives away a third of his salary so the military of my country can do their job. and no, not being in the military does not disqualify me to speak about this sort of situations...

This seems to be a trait on your posts. You should make it more clear, although many of us in here can see it coming from very far away.... More of your one line posts. Really, your opinion was much more valid when you used to copy-paste peacefuljeffrey´s posts. Go figure. Again, when you do not have anything to add to the thread other than personal attacks, it is when you should consider the virtue of silence. Edited to add some spelling mistakes so Juanesky can attack my post instead of my person...

I don´t understand, are you saying that the fault is whoever turned them in? I would say the fault is whoever pulled the trigger.

If i have understood correctly those articles pretty much say that U.S soldiers for the sacrifice athat are doing should not be held accountable for their actions, right? The way i see it, as Kallend has pointed out, is that that very same action, or crime, or decision, or whatever you want to call it, in the U.S would have cost him a much harsher sentence. However, crimes commited in Irak to iraki citizens are not being punished as hard as they should. Short of we only care about our guys, screw the rest. Maybe in other circumstances it is not clear wether the soldier did actually perceive a threat that justified his actions. In this situation it is clear the iraki was not a threat. IMO this soldier broke the american law and should be punished accordingly. anyeay this is an excerpt of the geneva convention. -------------------- 1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria. To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons: (a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; (b) Taking of hostages; (c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment; (d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples. 2. The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for. ----------------------------

No, you can finish him off if you want. War is war, but it works both ways, when the insurgency starts finishing off your soldiers, i really hope you still say that war is dirty and lightly joke about giving them band-aids. How can it be so dificult to grasp that the U.S will not win this war until they bring the iraqui population to their side. You are just tossing granades at your forces.

Sorry, my post may not have been as clear as it should. I think it is a extremely light condemn. No matter if the guy was an innocent bystander or a member from the insurgency, once he is wounded and disarmed and do not pose any threat, it is a murder to kill him. It was just an execution who has been punished only with three years of jail. A sentence in the line of abu-grahib etc, etc. Until the U.S military stops doing this short of things or the U.S judicial system starts punishing those acts as if the victim was american, no one will see the U.S as the "good guys"

Clicky BAGHDAD, Iraq - A U.S. soldier was sentenced to three years in prison after pleading guilty to killing a severely wounded Iraqi teenager, the military said Saturday. advertisement Staff Sgt. Johnny M. Horne Jr., 30, of Winston-Salem, N.C., also received a reduction in rank to private, forfeiture of wages and a dishonorable discharge. Horne, attached to Company C, 1st Battalion, 41st Infantry Regiment, based in Fort Riley, Kan., pleaded guilty to one count of unpremeditated murder and one count of soliciting another soldier to commit unpremeditated murder. The charges relate to the Aug. 18 killing of a 16-year-old Iraqi male found in a burning truck with severe abdominal wounds sustained during clashes in Baghdad’s Sadr City, an impoverished neighborhood that was the scene of fierce fighting between U.S. forces and Shiite rebels loyal to anti-U.S. cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. A criminal investigator said during an earlier hearing that the soldiers decided to kill him to “put him out of his misery.” The military said in a statement that a jury-like panel of seven service members issued the sentence Friday night after about four hours of deliberations. Horne is among six Fort Riley soldiers charged with killings in recent months — two for slayings in Kansas and four for deaths in Iraq. Staff Sgt. Cardenas J. Alban, 29, of Inglewood, Calif., is charged along with Horne in the teenager’s killing and is awaiting a court-martial hearing. Two other soldiers from the same unit this week faced Article 32 hearings — the military equivalent of a grand jury hearing — over a Sadr City killing in August. An Article 32 hearing was held Thursday for Sgt. Michael P. Williams, 25, of Memphis, Tenn., on charges of premeditated murder, obstruction of justice and making a false official statement. Also charged is Spc. Brent May, 22, of Salem, Ohio, who had a two-day hearing and is awaiting a ruling on whether he will be court-martialed, receive a lesser penalty or be acquitted. -------------------------------- Does anyone else think that this sentence is a joke? I mean, 3 years only for puting the Iraky out of misery? and how come he is being charged for unpremeditated murder when he shoot the poor guy "to put him out of his misery"? I can see some double standards here...

You would be surprise. No one likes murderers or rapist or scum like that. And no one has any simpathy for them. As someone said in this thread, you can always think of a crime against your beloved ones that will make your blood boil and would make you want to kill whoever did it. Most people against capital punishment will argue that it is unacceptable the risk of killing an innocent. No one will say that the criminal doesn´t deserve the punishment. So my guess is that most anti cap-pun will be willing to do it. No. Why? considering it hasn´t been prooved to work as a deterrent and that revenge is not politically correct, can you share your reasons?

What about if that inmate was jailed and forced to work his ass off for the rest of his life. The money he would be making would be to cover his expenses (no work= no food. If he dies for not eating, it would be suicide) and the rest to repay the family of his victim. It would be much cheaper for the taxpayer that normal life term or execution, victims would get compensations, and (very important) if it is found later that he was innocent, the state can attempt to compensate him. Everybody wins. Would you ban death penalty under this terms?

That side being the U.S in the present war...

I apreciate your response. you are the only pro-cap-pun, brave enough to look at the issue and admit that you don´t care wasting an innocent life for a bloody revenge. Don´t take me wrong, i don´t think it is good, but it is much better than those who just dodge the question. Let´s call things by its name. If the guy is guilty it is an execution, but if the guy is innocent it is a murder. a legal murder if you want, because your constitution allows it, but a murder nonetheless. He did nothing and met death, just like the shop owner who gets robbed or the bystander who gets runover by a drunk driver. So, how would you compensate the family of the executied/murdered person since it would be a bit too late to compensate him. Would they be allowed to compensation? Please, include figures as a reference. How to measeure what a life is worth? Of course an apology is due? but who will take responsability for the mistake. Which take me to the next thought... Shouldn´t we hold accountable of the terrible mistake someone? Maybe if the police had gathered more clues, or if his lawyer had been more competent... a jury of his peers really fucked up should we hold them accountable for their mistakes? If not we would be leaving a crime unpunished which is what cap-pun is all against. I just read in the news that the "brain" behind the bombimg in the Atocha Station in Madrid has just been caught. Don´t you think that i don´t want him to die? however, it is remotely possible it wasn´t him. Only for that slim chance, i am willing to lock him in a cell and loose the key rather than kill him. And believe me, i could kill him with my bare hands. edited for clarification

Oh, and by the way. No one here idolizes people killing americans. Most people with a bit of common sense idolizes people fighting to defend their country. Don´t you? isn´t it your job to defend your country? In your book, insurgent should be heroes.

Dude, it is the second time you threaten someone on this threads for disagreeing with you (I was the other one). Get a life, you don´t own the truth, and anyway, aren´t you suppose to be fighting for your people´s rights and freedoms, like freedom of speech?

Yes, i do. Did you understand my question? I guess not since you are avoiding it.

clicky And don´t you think that is enough? You have to really use your imagination to make up an excuse for sitting on top of a prisoner. No trained person would ever sit on top of a person in order to hold him down. Maybe the marine was tired? we cannot tell from the picture. No, i compared the most extremist person i can find in the U.S with the most extremist person i can find in Irak. If you want me, i can compare the most open minded american with the most open minded Iraki, and both would see it with a mixed of horror and sadness, and there is a whole lot in the middle. Again, unless you are asking me to compare the most radical iraky with the average american, (then yes, there is a diference) i don´t see your point. It is not dodge, it is just that i didn´t fall for wathever trick/trap you were just setting. I just did, if this is not the right answer either, please do tell me wich one it is because i am truly curious. Surely you are not implying that all irakis are radicals or that all americans are well moderated. We have gotten nuts in every single country.

Come on, Juanesky. We all know here your agenda and you are not precisely famous for your respectful posts, specially to those who don´t share your right wing ideals. By the way, strange criteria for identifying a troll: left wing = troll. I have also asked you many times before to read the whole thread before posting. Please do read it this time and you will see how Rehwma was talking about me. I assume that you are just writing me from Irak or afganistan to be able to lecture me. I mean you talk about this conflict so matter-of-factly that i wouldn´t think of you that you are an armchair quaterback...

Is that suppose to be a personal attack? And i am close minded regarding to what? I have told you many times before that if you cannot contribute to the thread with anything useful, it is much better not to say anything. That includes spelling and grammar corrections, copy-pasting other people posts and one line posts. Thank you, and please do check again the forum rules in SC, they have not changed but you may have forgotten them.

Right, we know nothing, hey, maybe the hooded guy was asking for it. Maybe he is in some sort of S&M. Pleeeeeeaseeeee, give me a break. I wish it had never happened Other than the beheading, and you will agree with me that the U.S has also killed his share of innocent people, including Guantanamo, the treatment is pretty much the same. The only different is that you get all pissy if someone call you terrorist, and they know they are terrorists. I am comparing now those americans screaming let´s nuke them and yelling something about glass parking lot with those muslims dancing in the street everytime one of your guys die. Sorry, what is your point? No problem, you can repay me if you like by answering my question in the execution thread. (If you are pro death penalty). It seems that no pro-death penalty type guy has any idea how to support their believes.