CooperNWO305

I think the rows on the spreadsheets are individual particles. Tom’s presentation at CooperCon 2018 mentions 100,000 particles. So each particle had some combination of elements it seems.

Georger: How well versed are you on the McCrone part of the Citizen Sleuths website, or was Tom Kaye the one who focused on that? I was looking at the Excel spreadsheets on the elements and noticed that the summary tabs only hit on the major elements found, and not all the elements that were actually found on the tie. This makes sense because the site says something along those lines. I've been focusing on the overall summaries. For instance, the summary might say Gold, but that is the element in the Excel row with the highest percentage, listed as First Element. But also in that row are Silver, Aluminum, and Sulphur. What I'm trying to figure out is what each row means. Each tab on the spreadsheet has the same stub that was used, but each row for that stub is different. Tom Kaye has said that there is no way to know if an element was found combined with another one, but I'm wondering if elements were found together. Example: Pepperoni and Cheese may be found together in a pizza, but they may not be combined together, just one on top of the other. I know this is a loose example. What leads me to look at the McCrone analysis more is a desire to see if McCrone has other data from their research that they can compare to the DB Cooper tie data and see if there is overlap. There could be 50 elements in this data, not just titanium. It will take me a while to pull out all of them. I guess one could look at the elements and decide anything they want. For instance, I could pull out Vanadium and say that it came from coal dust. I've theorized that Cooper was a working man and worked in some industrial setting (as have many others theorized the same thing). As I was looking at the McCrone site, I perused their press releases. There are a few on DB Cooper, but what caught my eye was on one coal analysis: https://www.mccrone.com/media-coverage/fox10-news-investigates-coal-uncovered/ Also one on stolen currency. You need to be a member to read the whole thing. https://www.mccrone.com/media-coverage/laboratory-analysis-of-stolen-currency-paper-money/ Bottom line is that a lot of folks love to talk about the titanium and not the other 50 elements. I think McCrone could give us some good info just by comparing the stubs to other analysis that they've done. I would still like to see some other clothing items analyzed besides Cooper's tie and a Boeing tie. Flyjack I think you were working some angle on this too.

Call it conjecture or whatever. TC has a history, a pattern, a series of trends. We all know where he is going with things. "Lots of new material on Rackstraw." Sure. One of my favorites is how they tout this 100 pieces of evidence on Rackstraw. It is not evidence, it is information. For instance is this evidence: "On October 20, 1963 the Santa Cruz Police Department found an intoxicated Robert Rackstraw with fake identification" How is this evidence? The fact is that every suspect has good information about them, but to call their life story "evidence" is a bit misleading. Information is a good word, theory too. Here is their list of evidence on Rackstraw. He was 28 at the time, does not look like any witness description, and did not have the temperament to be DB Cooper. I'd be curious to know if the investigation team is so caught up in the details that they can't see the forest for the trees, or is it that they are fanatical true believers, or is there an integrity issue here? https://dbcooper.com/evidence/

I agree with you on the science Georger. But on the Netflix series I have a different view. DB Cooper’s relatives are out there. Maybe they know their grandfather was DB Cooper, maybe they don’t. But you never know how one of these shows will motivate someone to come forward or for some person to get excited to join the search.

https://ew.com/tv/d-b-cooper-hijacking-documentary-netflix-trailer/ News article on the Netflix series.

Looks like it should be good. I had heard that it was very focused on Colbert and team, but it looks like they've got Gray, Bruce Smith etc. Darren is in there too.

That’s a great way to put it. The tail does not wag the dog. The money find does not prove a flight path.

I've noticed a trend where the FBI files released seem to often times have info that has recently been a hot topic, for instance the air stairs. That topic was being discussed a lot, and then it shows up in the FBI release. I have not seen a lot of rhyme or reason to how the files are released, like by date order. You'll see a file from 1972 and then one from 1982. So maybe if we talk about it enough, something could show up. It's possible that Mark Zaid uses the discussions to then ask for certain files. I don't know, but it does seem to be a trend. I asked about photos a few weeks ago and was told there have not been any released, so yea, I'd like to see it too. I've been thinking about the tie some. Was it Cooper's? What really indicates that it was his? He was wearing it, ok. But he was wearing a suit too, and we talk about him buying a suit secondhand, but not a tie? Ties did not typically show up in secondhand stores I guess. They did end up in lost and founds though. Cooper did not wear any identifying jewelry, no watch, no rings, etc. But he decided to wear a tie bar/pin etc?? Does Cooper buy a suit but use his own tie? Possibly. But if he did get it second hand, and we trace the particles to say Kansas, that helps. I question how rare those elements were, titanium specifically. It was being used on aircraft and racing cars in the 60s for certain. I have to imagine it was on other items like trucks, cars, brakes, etc. Anything needing light weight or corrosion resistance. The part about the pictures would help me a bit. I think he could have dropped the tie accidently, or on purpose, or placed it and not picked it up. But if he had a tie bar, that would have been used to hold the tie to his shirt, and therefore it would not be flapping in his face. Why place the tie on the middle seat and not the seat closest to the aisle, or on Bill Mitchell's side? We don't know if he left the tie on purpose or by accident. In terms of photos, I'd like to see how things were found, the tie, the chutes, etc. Citizen sleuths have 50 years of discussion and learning and may be able to see something the FBI did not see.

Does V23 encompass both the FBI flight path and the WFP, how about the EFP (Washougal)?

Do we know if Cooper's coat was for sure a raincoat or was it an overcoat? It's been a while since I've worn suits regularly, but when I wore them more often, I had a raincoat and an overcoat, but I would not travel with both. Basically when it rained, I'd pull out the raincoat. I guess if I was on the road a lot, I'd have both with me. Does Cooper travel with both? Or because it rains a lot in Seattle, does he have that raincoat with him at all times? We talk about the tie being bought second hand, the suit too, but I have not heard much talk about the raincoat/overcoat being bought second hand. We may never know, but if he owned everything, that is different than him buying everything at the last minute.

The US government, any agency, military, politician, etc, rarely will admit fault. It just does not happen that way. There are scapegoats, which there does not seem to be in the DB Cooper case, but no one will admit that they did not get their man. Now, if this somehow became political between Democrats and Republicans, then I guarantee the case would move forward. That won't happen. Bottom line is that we can't expect the FBI to say "Cooper lived, and got away with the money." Even though there are probably FBI agents who believe that. I'll be curious to see if Larry Carr adjusts his theory as the years go by. If Cooper did die, then there are plenty of methods to find him, and frankly this case would be easier to solve if he did die.

Another takeaway I had from the Larry Carr interviews is that the FBI is not doing anything on this case, and unless you have a $20 bill or some other huge item, then the government is not taking this anywhere. Translated, it will be a citizen sleuth who takes this to the next step.

Great. It worked. Thanks.

Anyone know what the url was for Sluggo’s site? It would be on the Wayback Machine but I think you need a url.

"He stated that there was approximately one stream per mile of land in this area. If a person parachuted in this basin, he would most probably come to earth on land. Based on this fact, there is a good chance the money was carried to water rather than falling into it. If the money had not landed within ten feet of a stream, chances are almost zero that the money would make the stream. [Almost a repeat of Bradley’s comments. Who came up with the Washougal Theory first?]" This goes with my thoughts in that Cooper likely did not land in water. I say not likely, but that does not mean impossible. But given that most of the drop zone was land, it is unlikely that he landed in water. There were 3 packets of bills found at Tena Bar, $6000 or so. This is very possibly the same amount of money that was taken out of the bag and handed to Tina, then maybe put back in the bag?? Or into the raincoat, or Tina kept it. I realize that this money is one of our only clues, but many people in case want to use the $6000 to define what happened to the other $193,000. My stance is that it is possible that the $6000 was separated from the $193,000 early on in the event and that the $193,000 is still out there buried, or disintegrated, or was spent, etc.

He mentioned maps too, but that does not get a lot of publicity. We don't know if those are aeronautical maps or street maps. As I understand, Hahneman jumped into the jungle with no real plan, as did some of the other hijackers. So a hijacker jumping with no plan may not be that unusual.

I don't remember seeing the reference to Mazatlan. Is that in the 302s? Good point about possibly changing the destination in flight. That would have been an option for him.

Larry's comments on the Washougal had me looking at a map to see how far the Washougal was from the actual jump spot. It is a good distance, and I just don't see it. As I was playing around, I used the map to draw a straight line from SEATAC to Mexico City and one to Reno. Attached is a rough attempt to see how those lines would look (granted this is on a map and not a globe, so a straight line would be a little off, but not too much). What strikes me as unusual is that the line to Mexico City goes over completely different areas than the one to Reno, and those are both different from where he jumped. If Cooper did plan a jump spot, then he had to have been flexible, because once the plane leaves SEATAC he does not know for sure where it will go. Did he hope it would go through Portland? Did he hope the stairs would work? Sometimes I think he planned every step, and other times I think he just didn't care and winged it as he went. Map to Reno and Mexico City.pdf

Georger: I'm with you on this one. As I was listening, I realized that Larry Carr was referring to the tried and true methods of law enforcement, which were knocking on doors and the belief that criminals get caught because they talk. Apparently this is the case most of the time, but clearly the DB Cooper case did not go that way, so the knocking on doors and waiting for someone to talk just may not have worked out. Larry actually says in the podcast that there were sort of two groups in the FBI, one was the "knuckle draggers" his words, the former street cops it sounded like, and the other was a group that focused more on long term investigations, warrants, etc. That makes sense from people I've talked to and friends in different agencies. The ones who wanted to do the tactical stuff leaned more towards city police, or DEA, and the higher level investigative work interested people who went into the FBI or State Police. I am generalizing here, but it sounds like Larry is more of the former, wanting to do bank robbery and the hardcore law enforcement work, but he got stuck on domestic terrorism to start. I can relate in that I prefer a field job to a desk job, or at least I did when I was younger. In 1971 I think they thought they would catch him, so looking into every suspect made sense, but in hindsight that was looking for a needle in a haystack. Edit: I feel like the FBI was looking at Cooper as a lifetime criminal who had done crimes before and would act like a crook and tell his buddies about the crime or brag to some person in a bar. But what if this was Cooper's only crime and what if he never told anyone, except maybe his wife or his accomplice? If that was the case, then waiting for someone to talk is futile.

I have yet to see any information about a systematic way to check bills or that they were even doing it. The NCIC has been around for over 50 years. There would have to be a situation where someone took an actual bill, then ran it through the NCIC. I could see something in the late 90s or 2000's being more automatic using computers are a program to recognize serial numbers, but it still seems very manual. By the 90s most of these bills would be out of circulation. If they were spent overseas, at some point some of those would end up back in the states too. I just find it very hard to fathom that someone would have this money and not spend some of it. Some kid finding the money actually makes sense. Like most things in this case, there are a range of odds/probability. Money washes out to sea? Possible. Low chance. Money is still out there? Possible. Very low chance. Cooper got away with the money? Possible, higher chance. Someone found the money: Possible, higher chance. If one believes that the money left the area by hand (Cooper, some kid), then we have a very cool character who does not spend any of it. If it were me, I might spend a little of it to enhance my life. Eating out, gas, gifts, whatever. Little things. If you're a blue collar worker making $5 an hour in 1971, a few extra $20s can go a long way.

The latest 302's are decent. Not a whole lot of new info. A good amount on the air stairs test if people are interested. Some info on Early Cossey. Here are my takeaways. Composite B is the sketch to be using. Frankly if someone is using Composite A, it is to make their suspect fit. It sounds like the SR-71 did make a flight but did not take pictures.. The sketch was expensive to re-produce and may not have made it out to all the magazines and newspapers as often as the government would have liked. The FBI did search a lot of the area, to include the new search area (I'm guessing closer to Orchards). They made an effort to engage hunters to look in their hunting areas. My observation on this is that it is just one more reminder that no body was found, no nothing. So many things need to fall into place for Cooper to have died in that jump. I just don't see it. I listened to Darren's podcast and the Facebook Live with Larry Carr. I'm looking forward to hearing more about the case from Larry. He is still focused on Cooper dying. That just does not make sense to me. He did talk about how the money would not have been found in circulation.

Imagine the 727 is flying today and I go to a pilot, mechanic, stewardess, etc. and I ask "Is there any reason the aft stairs can not be opened in flight?" They would say "There is a Cooper vane which makes it impossible." But what would they have said to that question in 1971? There really is no reason that the stairs could not be opened unless it was due to air pressure (which he planned for) or some locking mechanism somewhere, which we know there wasn't. It is really how one asks the question. Question: Can the aft stairs be lowered in flight? Answer: Well, I don't know, I've never done it or seen it. Or, Question: Is there any reason the aft stairs can not be lowered in flight? Answer: No, not really. There is no reason. I agree that he would not want to just assume on this one, but if he could not test it in flight, then the best guess would be that there is no reason the stairs can't be lowered in flight. I thought of something else in terms of picking Seattle. Proximity to a military base for the parachutes. If he assumed the chutes would come from a military base, then he would have wanted an airport near a base. That rules out a lot of other airports.

The airstairs piece has been used to indicate Cooper knew a lot about the 727, but this info above seems to discredit that some. There is mention that he knew where the oxygen bottles were on the plane too. This to me is not that big of a secret, as I've seen oxygen bottles on planes many times. Another piece mentioned is that Cooper knew the area because he knew McChord Air Force Base was a 20 minute drive from SEATAC. But was it really a 20 minute drive? Straight line distance is about 24 miles, so even at 60 MPH it was 24 minutes, but in reality I'm guessing it was more like a 25-35 minute drive. This is information easily obtained from a map. Also, it is mentioned that he knew the area because he identified Tacoma from the air. The only major city on the route from PDX to SEATAC was Tacoma. The next closest city was 25 miles away (Olympia, much smaller) and there is no reason to think that the plane would circle Olympia (25 miles from the flight path and 25 miles from Tacoma). Also, Tacoma's population in 1970 was 154,000 to Olympia's 23,000. It would be hard to confuse Tacoma for Olympia. How much effort was put in looking for someone from the Northwest who had intimate knowledge of the 727 when it could very well have been some guy from Kansas who had visited the area and studied up on the 727? I give Cooper a lot of credit for having the guts to pull this off, and to have pulled it off, but I do not put him in the James Bond or Special Operations category. I still see him as an average guy who got away with a crime. He may have wanted to be James Bond, but he was not, except for a few hours on that night.

I'm with Flyjack on the air stairs, and I don't need to have Hahneman as a suspect to think this way, so no bias here. Initial demands seem to be air stairs up, with aft door open, which makes total sense. Cabin stays de-pressurized, plane can take off. Somewhere along the line he decides he wants the stairs more easily accessible, so he says something along the lines of halfway down. That makes total sense. Leave the stairs unlocked, and hanging, but not touching the ground. This allows the aircraft to take off. Air stairs locked down and hitting the ground just does not make any sense. I would challenge someone to get all the documents relating to this exchange and post those. Flyjack has posted the sequence of communications, so what out there trumps this? Whether he jumped where he wanted or not is up to interpretation. I believe he jumped almost exactly where he wanted to. Jumping in a city does not make sense to me, nor does jumping in the wilderness past Portland. After that point he has no idea where the plane will be, except if it goes to Mexico City. However, part of me thinks this guy had such a death wish that he just figured he could escape and evade from anywhere. Flyjack is one of the few who actually post the relevant evidence (302's, book excerpts). So who has the equivalent evidence that he wanted the stairs down at takeoff from the beginning?

See if this works. I went to Jo's profile and found her early posts, which seem to be part of the original chain. This should get us to the beginning of the thread.