
CooperNWO305
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Everything posted by CooperNWO305
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Flyjack: What are you seeing in terms of a bulge? Where is it? I go back and forth on whether Cooper had help, or if somewhere along the line there was money changing hands. I could argue both sides, but do not have proof either way. People in their 20's do stupid things sometimes. If we found out for sure that a stew got money, or even helped in some way, I would not be surprised, but I also would not be surprised if it was a solo job. Robert: You have done some research on other hijackings. Did the FBI or law enforcement question all passengers, crew, maintenance workers, etc. in all of those? I wonder if the FBI assumed that this would be solved quickly, and therefore it was not economical or logical to go down into the weeds of everything. In their shoes, I would have focused on catching the guy right there and then, and may not have taken the time to do more detailed work. If you know you'll catch him soon, why go through all the hassle? I personally would like to see pictures of every passenger, and worker involved in that flight. Names, place of birth, etc. Not that it would necessarily help right now, but someday if this is solved or we have a good suspect, there will be an opportunity to see if we can really tie things back. Himmelsbach put the crew above suspicion. That does not seem to be the standard procedure in a crime now. A bank robbery investigation would likely look at the employees first.
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Robert: The spammer has nothing to do with Bruce. Anyone interested in the case can go to any of the websites like Mountain News or the Cooper Forum. Just because they are on those sites does not mean they support everything that goes on. Calm down. Bruce's credibility is doing just fine.
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Nicky raised a point at The Cooper Forum about the Raleigh cigarettes, James Bond/Dan Cooper comic, etc. It may or may not get some discussion over there. I sense some of the long time posters there have already discussed many topics through the years and may be worn out on these theories. Nicky, we may be in agreement that the Raleigh cigarettes were not his usual brand. It makes sense to me that if he was hiding other parts of his persona, why not the cigarettes too. Why smoke your regular brand and possibly give yourself away? So much of the hijacking seemed to have a flair about it, so why not the cigarettes too? I had done some searching a while back on those cigarettes. They were a popular brand, but not the most popular. I looked at old advertisements for those, but did not see anyone famous as a spokesperson (granted it was a cursory search). Question-did anyone famous smoke Raleighs? Did James Bond? I know Sean Connery smoked in his Bond movies, but were the cigarettes Raleighs? Did Dan Cooper smoke cigarettes in the comic? Were those cigarettes in any movies or books? Flyjack this seems right up your alley.
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Robert-You were on the podcast. How many have you listened to? Darren is knowledgeable about the case, and he has opinions, but as a host he does a great job of staying neutral. Anyone who posts at the Cooper Forum knows that links are only available to those who log in.
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It would be great to see a minute by minute log of what was said and what happened with sources cited for each entry, and if there are discrepancies, then have those listed too. Sluggo has a good timeline, but if that was combined with some of the guys who know a lot of the intricate details, that would be cool. If this COVID thing keeps going I may have a few days of DB Cooper time to organize all my notes. For those on here: Did Cooper ever say to fly south? Did he say anything about which direction to take off? Or did he just say Mexico and then Reno? Would he have known if the pilots decided to fly over the ocean instead (I'm guessing he would at some point), but couldn't they have flown over the ocean and then cut south claiming that was a normal flight path?
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Flyjack: That would be crazy if the parachute that was found was Coopers, but that the FBI was looking for a different chute. Case Closed replayed yesterday on History. On Friday 3/13 the Wiki page on Cooper had 2,449 visitors. Yesterday there were 27,781. Part of that has to do with people staying in due to COVID-19, but the point here is that when there are shows on TV about Cooper, people get interested.
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Fly. I’m trying to visualize this. Cooper says no to military chutes, but he ends up using a military chute or a partial military chute given it was 1971? Or was it that he used a civilian container that had a military harness with a military canopy? I have not spent a lot of time on the chutes, except to zero in on the fact that he put on a harness easily. I assumed the harness was military spec. As always, great info. Although I respect the FBI, they are not infallible. I still think there are Cooper researchers who know more about the case than any agent, simply for the fact that an independent researcher can stay on the case for much longer.
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Does anyone know what Air Force units were stationed at McChord in November of 1971 in terms of bombers or cargo planes that might have flown with just regular backpack chutes versus ejection chutes? Any Army freefall jumpers at Fort Lewis? It definitely would have sucked if you're DB Cooper and you ask for parachutes and get static lines or ones with AAD's.
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On The Cooper Vortex episode with Martin Andrade, he mentions that his dad who was a fighter pilot tried to put on the same type of chute that Cooper likely used, and it took him a little while. Martin Jr. also wore harnesses a lot in his job, and he found it difficult to put on. So from that perspective, even someone with harness or parachute experience could find it difficult to put on the Cooper chute. Cooper did it easily, which opens up some questions. Was he faking it? Did he have experience with that chute/harness, or maybe experience with multiple types of harnesses?
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Flyjack: Are you of the belief that Cooper jumped with a military rig vs a civilian rig and that he could have chosen either a civilian rig or military rig, but chose the military rig? That's my understanding.
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Think about it like this. Have you ever been on a boat and gone through the training in case it sinks? You put on a life jacket, you tie it, you get ready to get in life boats, you talk about what to do, etc. But sometimes you never really actually get into the water. That's the difference between an exercise and the real thing. The military does this all the time, it's called training. Cooper could easily have been an aircrew member who trained for the eventuality of jumping from a plane, but may actually have not ever jumped from a plane. Larry Carr called Cooper a know it all, one who got the broad strokes down, but not the details. Cooper could have had all the practice steps down, and that one day in 1971 decided to take the final step of jumping in the water so to say. Hahneman was an aircrew member, so he would know harnesses, but did he ever jump (until 1972?). He may never have jumped until that one day, but he was comfortable right up to the point that he left the aircraft, so it was not a huge leap for him to go that last few inches.
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A good thing about these forums is that the discussion keeps us current on the case and keeps ideas flowing through our brains. I need a refresher often. Question: Today the skydiving rigs are all mainly civilian, and are not similar to military chutes. However, in 1971 the sport was just advancing, and skydiving rigs could be composites of different types of chutes, harnesses, containers, etc. Would someone who had a few skydives under their belt necessarily be familiar with putting on a military harness? Could their jumps have all been with more civilian type gear?
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I believe we are talking about the same things, but in different contexts. Putting on a harness quickly indicates that Cooper was familiar with harnesses, but it does not necessarily indicate that he was an experienced skydiver. I think Fly, R99, and I would agree on this. One group that would be good with harnesses would be aircrews. Where we may diverge is on the level of skydiving experience, and whether or not this would have resulted in his survival. I'm of the Martin Andrade school where I think he could have jumped out and been a lot like a pilot or aircrew bailing out of a plane. Most pilots and aircrews that bailed out of planes (B-17s in WW2, F-4's in Vietnam, etc.) would likely have been on their first jump. The intent was not for these guys to jump out of a plane, but to land in the plane. The military does not send all aircrews through parachute training, just basic bail out techniques and survival. Remember, parachutes were for getting out of a damaged plane, they were not meant for fun. In most cases the chutes worked. If a kid jumping from a burning B-17 over Germany could pull a ripcord, then DB Cooper could have too, especially if he did it while sitting on the back stairs. No one was shooting at him, the plane was not in flames. I believe Cooper knew how to put on a harness, but was not a skilled skydiver. He could have had a few jumps. He may have practiced in the military, even gotten on a plane back when there were not as many rules as today. He may have practiced a jump at a place like Elsinore. It is also possible that Cooper never actually parachuted out of a plane, but did have parachute experience. How is this possible? Well, the Navy trained their air crews in parachute techniques using a para sail type set up. Army Airborne used towers.
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He would have trouble stabilizing because of a 20 pound bag of money tied to his body, but not because it was dark or he could not see the horizon. If he had any skydiving experience, or parachute free fall training, he would have known to arch his body. He could have done this in the dark, or with his eyes closed.
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Heady estimates he jumped at over 300 miles per hour. Lapointe jumped into the snow. Within 7 months of Cooper, 5 men jumped from similar planes and survived. Even most in the FBI have Cooper landing between Battleground and Orchards. I've personally seen that area, and can attest that it is flat as a pancake. There are many open fields. I'd have to see a topographical map from 1971, but I think it was likely as open then as it is now, if not more. What is difficult to do is put ourselves back to before we knew the details of the jump, and then look at it objectively. The big problem is that the narrative was put out that Cooper died, so people believed it. Had it started out that Cooper lived, things might be very different. We know he likely had a good chute for survival (maybe not for steerability). He had a chute to wrap himself in to stay warm It was not freezing cold. Life would have been uncomfortable, but survivable. No body was ever found, and had it gone into the ocean, it would have had to travel a ways, over dams and obstacles. 10,000 bills left that plane, yet only 300 were found. We know bank tellers stopped looking for the bills fairly soon. Cooper could have spent the money. The FBI who says he died still decided to keep the case open for over 40 years, spend millions of dollars on it, and had a list of 1,000 suspects. That's a lot to do for a dead man. The list goes on. To me there is way more information indicating survival than death.
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R99. What are your thoughts on the copycats who survived? Where is the other $194,000 dollars that did not end up on Tina Bar? Where is the body? I’m of the belief he survived. When I started I may have been 50/50. Bottom line for me is that his death/survival is debatable and the FBI narrative is misleading when it says he likely died. Maybe they want it that way, to keep Cooper thinking he is safe. I wonder if they actually did find more $20s. It took 20 years for them to tell us about the tie.
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R99-I don’t know where the Bohan stuff came into this. You state that there is no evidence DB Cooper survived. What is the evidence that he died? What evidence would be required to lean towards his survival?
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Is anyone an editor on Wikipedia? Can you help? I've noticed the second paragraph of the Wiki article on DB Cooper basically says he died in the jump. The footnote reference is tied to an official FBI page. Seems kind of wrong that the page says he died, and to prove it, they use a FBI site, the one group that wants everyone to believe he died. I was under the impression that most skydivers and researchers think he probably survived, or at least are 50/50 on it. When Wiki is the main site for info on Cooper for the majority of the public, and they see that he died, I think it reduces interest in the case. If people thought he might be alive, it might raise interest. This is what it says: "Available evidence and a preponderance of expert opinion suggested from the beginning that Cooper probably did not survive his high-risk jump, but his remains have never been recovered" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._B._Cooper
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Didn't some conversation take place at an Orioles game or something over beers? I thought I read that somewhere.
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I think he's under contract and can't speak about things. I'll check with him. :)
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Robert-The suspect pool is full of supporters with current or former security clearances. An 18 year old kid can join the Army and get a security clearance, so lets not use that as evidence of a suspect. Edward Snowden had a security clearance. The list of people like him goes on and on. The name dropping in this case is laughable. My uncle's neighbor's cousin's friend's father's Army buddy's dog was a FBI agent and he thinks xxx was DB Cooper. CASE CLOSED!
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I try not to focus too much on disproving suspects. Although I can. However, in the KC case, today I will only offer this: It seems like a number of suspects have a group of retired FBI agents who support that suspect. In the case of Reca, there are agents, and voice recognition experts, etc. The Rackstraw team has a whole group of retired law enforcement too. DB Cooper was one person. He may have had help, but it was still just one guy. So, all these suspects with FBI and other law enforcement backing simply can not all be DB Cooper. Therefore, a large portion of these retired agents are wrong. Kenny has FBI agent Jarvis. Peterson has FBI agent Mary something. Reca too. Rackstraw. Even McCoy has an agent who claims he shot DB Cooper. When Larry Carr comes out and puts his support behind a suspect, then I may start paying attention.
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One thing to remember is that Cooper put on the harness/chute quickly and with ease, and did not need any instructions. He has been accused of doing things haphazardly, but this part of the hijacking does not indicate someone who was winging it.
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I'm thinking some of the same things as you dudeman. I've said it before and will repeat it. Storing a dummy chute anywhere near a real chute is akin to storing cyanide tablets in your medicine cabinet next to your aspirin. You just don't do it. Something about a dummy chute smells bad to me. Sending Cooper a dummy chute is not something out of the realm of possibility. The FBI had snipers ready to shoot him, why not try to kill him with a dummy chute, or like dudeman said, try to make it so he can't take a hostage?
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The Universal Studios late November 1981 release could play a possible link if you believe Max Gunther and his Clara story, or even if you don’t. “Cooper” contacted Max in early 1972, and quickly fell off the radar. For some reason, Max was not contacted again until early 1982, by Clara, “Cooper’s” widow. The movie could have reignited a passion in Max, an imposter (Clara), or the actual real DB Cooper. It’s a good way to draw some attention away from a suspect by saying he died in 1982.