mikkey

Do you have any prove of terrorist training camps in Iraq prior to the US invasion? According to the facts I have seen, the only proven link between SH and terrorist movements were Iraq's financial support for the families of palestinian suicide bombers. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Yeah, a great SPEAKER....Morally corrupt in every other way. The guy could not even smoke pot correctly....Or he lied when he said he didn't inhale. I'll go with him being a liar....As he was shown to also have lied to congress. Looking from the outside, I prefer an American President lying about pot and sex instead about matters of war, human rights, international law, the economy etc. I spent quite some time in the US in the 90's and thought it was a very prosperous time with people being happy and optimistic. Really do not understand the Clinton haters. Yes, he is morally corrupt, but to me he seems to have been a good president in matters of importance, i.e. the economy and foreign policy. Ask people in "friendly" nations and ask who they prefer, Bush or Clinton.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I think that you do not find many people in the "western" countries that “hate” Americans. However, you find a lot who are annoyed with them…. You will find a lot of people in the Muslim world who “hate” the US – mostly due to ideological/religious reason (having been indoctrinated all their lives that the US is the great Satan) and the US support for Israel. The “annoyance” in Europe and other “western” countries like OZ, is caused by “US arrogance” on 2 levels. One level is political, i.e. the foreign policy of the US, which behaves like a bulldozer and is often discussed in this forum. The other is on a personal level. One has just to read many of the comments made in this forum which shows great disregard towards non-Americans and total believe that anything American is always superior to everything else. (Quite similar to the mentality of the French). Think back to the Sydney Olympics and the behaviour of the US 4x100 meter relay athletics team after their win if you want to understand what type of American behaviour foreigners do not like. No other team from any other country would have done something like that. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

My dad was in the resistance in Denmark blowing up railway lines to interrupt German troop and Iron ore transports between Norway and Germany. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Interesting point. I think it is going to be a major problem for the US that the focus is off China. This is a growing giant with a potentially aggressive attitude. The US should worry a little more about them. They are starting to influence a lot of different areas - including the oil price. Major reason for the price increase is actually the huge increase in oil consumption in China due to their continuing double digit economic growth. The chinese are very tough and would not be afraid to use military force if they feel it is important - e.g. in regard to Taiwan. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/05/31/1085855463688.html I have not noticed this before checking the local news paper. Is this a "real story"? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

You should spent more time outside Texas mate...

Suggest you come to Australia. You like it here then... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Al Qaeda (i.e. its Asian branch) had and probably still has a net of training camps in SEA - especially Indonesia. The countries are large and there are lots of remote areas where you can do these activities without being detected. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

One more point Re Chalabi. There is a warrant for his arrest in Jordan (bank fraud). This fact was known by the US administration all along. It did not seem to concern them that he had a reputation as a fraudster..... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Good post. I think most people do not understand how critically important the Israeli / Palestinian conflict is when it comes to the problem of radical fundamentalist Islam. The Palestinian problem is like a cancer in the mind of Muslims and a peaceful settlement that satisfies both sides would be the greatest antidote against the radicalization of Muslims in the Middle East (much easier said then done of course). The US policies in regard to this problem have been pathetic and worsen the situation. Unfortunately the Bush administration totally lacks the understanding of the way these people think and their culture and history. The way they “planned” the post-conflict Iraq situation clearly demonstrates that. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well, they were better equipped then you think. Including stinger missiles which shot down the helicopters. "group" is not all Afghanis – so the term exterminating Afghanis is not really correct (or you would have to say the US is currently exterminating Iraqis) . The soviets did actually also a lot of good in Afghanistan. They gave women rights and improved education and health care. Again, see any similarities with current events? Well, yes it is correct that OBL's money was important. But it has become more clear that Al Qaeda have been financed by a wide range of organizations and networks in the Muslim world. I think they are less financially dependent on OBL then what many people think. Difficult to speculate. Would the Soviets have won if the US had not supported the insurgents? Would Al Qaeda be such a factor if Israel and the Palestinians had reached and implemented a peace agreement in the early nineties? Who knows.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well, the Russians (Soviets at the time) were not exterminating Afghans. They had put a "friendly" Government in place because they saw Afghanistan as strategically important. They were engaged by and fought insurgents who did not want to accept a communist government. These insurgents were hard line Muslims amongst them many foreign fighters like OBL. (see any similarity with recent events?) The US supported these fighters because they wanted to strategically weaken the USSR and reduce its influence. After years of bloody fighting with the well equipped insurgents the USSR finally gave up, withdrew its troops and those fighters established the Taliban regime. The foreign fighters amongst them established AL Qaeda with the aim to spread the fundamentalist fight around the world. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

That's pretty funny coming from a guy who consistently regurgitates the same old tired themes, over and over and over . . . ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz That's pretty funny coming from a guy who consistently posts smartass one liners attacking posters instead od debating the issues... ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

There is no doubt that the Bush administrations actions in Iraq is a "gift" to Al Qaeda and similar groups. The Islamic world thinks the US is at war with their Religion. Living close to SEA and traveling there regularly I can feel the surge in anti-western pro-Islam "mood". As a secondary effect, the US has also pissed off people in "western" countries who are supposed to be allies. I have not seen as much ant-American sentiment in Europe since the Vietnam war - maybe even greater. Here in Australia people are starting to turn against the Americans to. You could normally win elections by being close to the US - at the moment looks like the current government which is close to the US will loose the coming election - mostly because of Iraq. So nice work Mr. Bush - not only have you strengthened Al Qaeda and its affiliates - you have also alienated your traditional allies. And OBL is still on the loose in Afghanistan - and troops have to be moved away from Korea to plug holes in Iraq. PS: Interesting to see how the usual suspects - just dismiss these issues and call all critics ant-american and tell all foreign critics to go and fuck themselves. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

This thing goes all the way to the top and started when the US declared that the Geneva Convention was not applicable in Gitmo and by denying the detainees any rights what so ever. Based on released Gitmo prisoners’ statements the abuse there is systematic. The General in charge of Gitmo was sent to Iraq to make the detention system more ‘efficient” and funny enough the torture stuff started soon after. AFAIK the guy is still in charge. It has also been reported that it was Gen. Sanchez who authorized that the military intelligence was in charge of all aspects in the prison. Looking at some pictures showing people parading covered in human faeces, reports of people eating same, boys being raped, dozens of suspicious deaths in detention etc.- in my eyes the US has completely lost it’s moral high ground. These are pictures that remind me of stuff that was done by people we fought in WW2. We also need to understand that people got “picked up” and were detained quite randomly and that 90% of people detrained at some stage were again released. So the people tortured and abused are probably mostly innocent civilians. I just read about how the UK military and bureaucracy behind the scenes is very upset about US tactics in Iraq – especially the “over whelming force” tactics. The toll on the civilians is so great that the hatred against the west is growing every day. Also saw a TV report a week or so ago how a World War cemetery in Gaza for UK and Australian soldiers has been totally vandalised (never happened before over decades) and was plastered with revenge notices showing the abuse pictures. Al Qaeda recruiters are having a field day in the Middle East. I’ll bet you we will soon see a number of terrorist attacks around the world. I have just had a holiday and done some travelling around the country – the growth in anti-American sentiment down here is amazing (and this is one of the most pro-American countries in the world). So what has the Bush administration achieved by its actions: - While there was no considerable Al-Qaeda presence in Iraq pre-War – the place is now full of it. - Al Qaeda and related organisations are having a field day recruiting the next 9/11 terrorists in the Middle East. - Iraq is a shambles and will most likely end up breaking into 3 parts. In the north the Kurds who will destabilise the US and NATO ally Turkey. The middle and western Sunni dominated part aligned with Syria and the South dominated by Iran. Maybe even the whole country dominated by Iran (as the Shiite’s are in the majority). - Anti-American sentiment around the world (and not just in Muslim countries) is palatable. Many Pro-American governments who are part of the coalition of the willing are standing to lose elections due to this mess. - US intelligence has lost any credibility. They were fooled by people who were known to be fraudsters (Chalabi & Co.). And the great irony is that the Iranians might have arranged the whole thing. - It will be impossible for many years for the US to assemble any efficient “coalitions” for armed conflict. - The influence of the US has taken major damage. - Terrorism will most likely increase. - And the whole thing has cost about 800 American and many thousands of Iraqi lives. If Americans have any brains they get rid of Bush and his administration. The damage done by these folks will hurt the US and its Allies for many years to come. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

There is an interesting theory "out there" that the whole Iraq war is the brainchild of the Iranian secret service. 1) It is well known that SH started the war against Iran, which killed millions of Iranians. 2) It is also a fact that SH brutally suppressed the Shiite’s who are closely related to the Iranians. 3) It is fair to say that it was in Iran’s interest to get SH removed. It is also fair to say that Iran would expect a post- Saddam Iraq to be dominated by Shiite’s who are the majority of the population. This giving Iran a major influence over this strategic country. 4) It is also clear that most of the sources regarding WMD’s in Iraq were “delivered’ by Chalabi to the CIA. Now, if Chalabi worked for the Iranians we have an interesting picture here (or conspiracy theory if you like). The Iranians know Iraq better then the US, and could have calculated that any US occupying forces and their political allies would be forced out in the longer term. So: - Iran got Chalabi to deliver the “slam dunk WMD evidence” to the CIA. - The US does the dirty work. - Iran organises a lot of the insurgences, which forces the US to “hand over” earlier then they like and to an unstable government. - Once the US is out of the country, Iranian “friendly” Shiite’s take power and align Iraq with Iran. If this is true, it would be major embarrassment for the US. Even if it is not true (the Chalabi / Iran connection), the outcomes could still be the same. Great work Mr. Bush….. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

They are not. The exhibit has already been removed. This happened as soon as the city council was made aware of the issue. The art that was supposed to be exhibited was not available and some low level person, decided to go with this "art". We have a strong and reasonable large jewish community in Melbourne that is living in harmony with the rest of the population. Anti-semitic "issues" do not happen very often. Melbourne is very multi-cultural (e.g. second largest greek population after Athens), also lots of muslims, asians, italians etc. etc. and it is working quite well with only isolated problems. It is one of the aspects I enjoy in this city. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Look at the reaction: "US worse than Saddam, Arabs say" http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/05/01/1083224628877.html --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

If we can get back to topic. I find the pictures appalling. Especially the smiles on the face of the many US soldiers involved in the abuse. Do you guys have any idea what this will do the Iraqi people? Especially that women are involved in this. Every time people here question the tactics and operations of the US armed forces the right wingers here tell us how the army just exactly knows what it is doing and has everything under control. Apparently not - right in the middle of Baghdad. Read the latest Time magazine how Iraqi security forces do not want to work with the US troops because of their arrogance and domination. The whole thing is badly managed - as mentioned before the Brits are doing a much better job in the south by being much more respectful and "sensitive". But the American attitude which is also reflected on this board clearly does not work. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Fear not, I'm sure we'll be disagreeing again very soon. The world will return to its natural balance. LOL - I'll fix it right away.. So, if you are sensitive enough to understand that the flag issue can cause problems, why can't you see that the "blazing gun" tactics applied by the US military in Iraq is counter productive ? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I agree. This might just stir even more "nationalistic" resentment to the coalition. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Mate, if I am ever sat next to someone on a plane who needs to lift up the armrest in order to fit in then I guarantee you that flight will not lift off until I either have a new seat or security has carried me away. Don't remind me .... I once was on a plane from Bangkok to London (around 12 hour flight) when a fat guy like that sat next to me - profusely sweating and smelling after having had a garlic prawn dinner before going to the airport (happily sharing the story)..... and no empty seats on the plane. Speaking of nightmare flights... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

It is problematic to compare different Wars in different locations in different decades. However, there is some similarity in my opinion and that is the inability of American decision makers and military to understand "the locals". One of the reasons the North Vietnamese / Vietcong "won", was that they took full advantage of the local conditions (weather, terrain, etc.) and that their mentality and culture was very different – able to endure and displaying ruthlessness and applying guerrilla type tactics that a “westerner” probably would not. We are IMO seeing a little of this again in Iraq. The culture and mentality is very different in both tactics (e.g. not many “westerners” would act as suicide bombers) and how the people react. Depending on military strength might really backfire. The way things have gone in Falluja and Najaf shows that the US commanders do not understand the locals and that might become a major problem. Trying to kill everyone of the “insurgents” will only create more of those with plenty of money, weapons and explosives available. These guys are not “scared” the way we westerners are – going in hard might pacify a country in a different part of the world – in places like Iraq it might just do exactly the opposite. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Just a question from an interested outsider (non-American): Isn't it dangerous for the Republicans to bring up 30 year old stuff? Wouldn't this justify the democrats bringing up GWB's alcohol consumption and drink driving when he was "young and irresponsible" at around 40 years of age and also alleged drug use? Do you guys think this is going to be a complete mud slinging match over the next 6 month? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.