mikkey

I am not sure that you can directly compare the situation in Eastern Europe with Iraq. There are great cultural differences. No doubt in my mind that the majority of people in Iraq wanted to get rid of SH - but I am not so sure that they want a western style democracy. Their values and believe system are quite different from western type countries. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

From what I have seen and read, there was broad skepticism amongst the allies in regard to the reports from the camps. It really only dawned on them how bad it was when the camps got liberated. If the people in the right places really had understood (and believed) what was going on, they might just have bombed some of the camps. Here is an article about the issue: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4175045.stm --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Yes it is. Ask "third parties" who spent time in both UK and US cities and ask them where they felt safer (e.g. walking in the streets at night). Also, there are a lot of issues regarding US domestic politics that I do not comment on, because while I have visited the US numerous times, I have not lived there, thus really should not and would not make judgement on a whole range of domestic issues. You seem to be obsessed on issues regarding the UK and use articles, snippets and dubious statistics. I wonder why? Most non-US posters do discuss US politics exclusively in regard to foreign policy. The statistics you used were clearly crap - e.g. in regard to Finland, NZ, Russia etc. But in regard to the US and UK it is spot on? Come on...... And how do you know that the reporting systems and definitions are similar? You want to see "uninhabited" come to Australia... I have been looking for some realiable stats, but could not find any. If you really wanted to compare the UK and and US in regard to urbanisation, you need a lot of different stats - from how many live in rural, semi-rural, towns, small cities, large cities etc. as a proportion of the population. Here: You used it in regard to a point on population living in large cities. That makes about 50% living in large cities. How does stack up against the UK? (I don't have the numbers). And as mentioned in another post - if you want to compare you need to take certain circumstances into account like the area with "middle sized" industrial cities in the UK that are very close together and create one large urban area. Again, very difficult to compare. You are taking snippets from dubious stats, articles etc. and make wide judgement about the countries legal system, gun laws, law enforcement (e.g. your "apple thread"). What is the agenda here? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I don't know much about the Dominican Republic, but having been in New Zealand and Finland, I'd say that any survey that puts these 2 countries in the top 3 World Highest Crime Rate Club is, at best, comical... Yes, the stats used by John are about as ridiculous and useless as it gets. It shows NZ being a gangsters paradise (must be the raping of sheep) and Russia a safe haven. Cross border statistics are very difficult to use and thus my original point about first hand experience in a country. Give you an example. I live in Australia which has a very low density of population per sq mile but on the other hand most of the population live in a few large cities (Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Perth, Adelaide). I live in Melbourne with 3.5 million people and every American I met thinks it is a very safe city. However – we had a big spike in murders over the last few years. Now, is the city suddenly very dangerous? No, the reason for the increased killings is an underworld turf war over drugs and those guys have been killing each other in droves. Has this affected the normal population? Not a bit. Does it proof anything in regard to gun control – nope. So statistics are a difficult thing – you need to at least use it together with other information and preferably first hand knowledge. I am personally very happy that we have strict gun laws where I live, but I would not get involved in the US debate except when they are trying to misuse “stats” from other countries. I have no idea why John Rich so often is posting about UK law enforcement and gun issues. Maybe he just doesn’t like Poms. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

You are mixing and using statistics as it pleases you. Again: 1) How much first hand knowledge do you have about living conditions in the UK? 2) You are using stats that show Russia having a low crime rate - which shows that they are useless. 3) You are using demographic data selectively. I give you a stats: Population density in the US is 78 per square mile in the UK it is 638. The UK population is concentrated in a few major urban centres - the greater London area and the old industrial centres which lie north of London in areas like Sheffield, Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool etc. If you had ever travelled in the area you would know that there are not cities over one million but they are close together so it is very much like one large urban area. 4) You are mixing absolute numbers with relative numbers. 5) A key stats you haven't mentioned is that according to the stats I have seen you have a 10-20 times higher chance of being killed by a fire arm in the US compared to the UK. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Crime is the justification given for gun confiscation. Confiscating guns has no effect upon crime. Got it? How much time have you spent in the UK and Europe? I have traveled a lot in the States but would not get myself involved in the gun debate as I just don't have enough experience about the local "environment" and culture. Crime stats are very difficult to compare. Firstly it depends how they are compiled (look e.g. at the Russian stats mentioned - try to travel to Moscow and tell me how safe it is...) and secondly it also depends on urbanisation, i.e. how many % of people live in cities and how big are those cities in average. You probably agree that a 50 K town is much safer then LA. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Now this is funny... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I'm sure he did and I'm also sure he agrees with him. Really? You love abusing people who don't agree with you... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

People are so troll happy lately....why do you think he is a troll??? When rightwingers post inflammatory statements on SC it is a totally different thing.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

As you can see, Europe will not be a threat to anybody in the future, or do you mean the World of Marxist Decline? I think Europe has not learned the economic lessons of the past. Have you ever compared the trade and budget deficit of the US with the EU? Different priorities same economic problem. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Not all of them. I am disheartened that a Senator of mine would take an opportunity to berate someone and impugn their integrity in a public arena, when they knew that they were not in the right. I am all for tough questions. This wasn't "tough questioning," it was harranguing, ranting and spewing vitriol for the sake of the camera. That's grandstanding. Ciels- Michele After looking at this thread, I took the time to read the transcript. Really don't understand what the outrage is about. The Senator spent a lot of time taking the public statements of Rice and compare them with the information that was available at the time (and the different views about the information in different agencies). Looking at it - I think the case can be made that the administration and Rice were embellishing the information and misleading the public. If this is "impugn the integrity" - well so be it - looking at the facts there is a case to answer in regard to the administration "misleading" the public into war. Funny to see the "outrage" from the right. Just remember how happy the right was to "impugn the integrity" of John Kerry in regard to the Vietnam war. Anyway, it is Saturday morning here, not a cloud in the sky and going to be around 85 F. So I am off to the DZ --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Here you go - replies in bold. Would be nice if those defending these actions actually would do some research before presenting their oppinions as facts. They were also not the ones being "abused" if thats the word you want to use. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4165627.stm It's called scale. How can you equate humiliation, with the cutting off fingers, arms and legs, poking out eyes, and worse, that occured under SH? Got a link from a credible source? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4145585.stm Yeah, they would probably be sitting around singing "Give Peace a Chance" and "Kumbya." Terrorists do what terrorists do. They use any means and justification they can to recruit. They blame everything on someone or something else. Try reading a little about methods of psychological persuasion used by brutal dictators and regimes throughout history. SH was nothing but a terrorist who made it big. Big enough to have control of all the assets of Iraq at his disposal. I have absolutely no doubt, given what we now know, that the criminal elements within the U.N. would have demanded sanctions be ended and it would have been back to business as usual for Saddam. Given also that the Duelfer Report specifically found that procuring WMD's was a main priority for SH after the sanctions ended, that down the road we would have been faced with an even worse dilemma than we now face with N. Korea. I also have no doubt that Iran would be even less cooperative than they now are if there weren't over 100,000 US troops sitting next door. How anyone can sit there and so blindly believe that if we just don't upset terrorist they will become passive and learn to love us is beyond me. Look at how Israel tried to pacify Arafat. He was asked what it would take to end the terrorists attacks and then walked away from the negotiations when it became clear he was going to get 95% of what he asked for. When will people finally understand that these people want to kill you and your family because you aren't a Muslim? When will people understand the terrorists are brain-washing the young Muslims in the Mosques to hate Western Civilization? When will people finally understand this is a Cultural and Religious War? How many more dead Americans do you think we should have found acceptable? How many more terrorists attacks should we have suffered until we did something? Does anyone honestly believe that just by going into Afghanistan, that the terrorist attacks would have ended? Tell us what we should have done? The biggest mistake you make is to say that the insurgency and Al Qaeda type terrorists are the same. The insurgency is mainly based on local resistance to the occupation. These people are not killing Americans because they are not Muslims. The insurgency has been created by the occupation. Iraq was no terrorist threat. That has been proven again and again - no matter what the Administration and Fox are telling you. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Reading some of the stuff here - looks like quite a few posters really think the soldiers only made one mistake and that was taking pictures. BTW the prison was not a POW camp - all kinds of people were held there - also people arrested for minor offenses and were not convicted or charged at the time of abuse. So how can posters who all the time say that the Iraq war was justified because it got rid of Saddam and his methods, promote this type of treatment of prisoners? So the US can and should do what ever it pleases and behave like the worst human rights offenders? or at least if it is against muslims? So aren't you becoming what you supposedly are fighting against? Quite disturbing stuff IMHO. BTW - the insurgency in Iraq is now believed to have up to 200 thousand participants. And there are not many foreign terrorists amongst them - they are nearly all locals. Ever wondered why the insurgency seems to be growing? And forget about the latest BS that Iraq is like a flypaper and if they were not in Iraq they would be bombing your local cinema. These people would not be attacking coalition targets if it wasn't for the occupation. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

As mentioned - it is not just the quantity of countries visited, it is the time spent and the interaction with locals. Of those mentioned below I lived in 5 of them most others visited several times: Europe: Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Germany, Belgium, Holland, France, UK (England, Scotland, Wales), Spain, Portugal, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, Slovenia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Greece Americas: USA, Canada, Brazil, Barbados, Virgin Islands Asia/Pacific: Hong-Kong, Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Japan, New Zealand, Fiji, Vanuatu, New Caledonia and Australia (where I now live). Other: Mauritius. Unfortunately never been in Africa but will soon. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I want to hear details about: or were you just bragging? PS: On a serious note, I must agree with Christel - you guys are happy just because he admits some of his most obvious blunders? Oh, well nobody outside the US can understand why you guys re-elected that man after all he done. You yanks are "different". --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Maybe a few people both know a little more about what the UN is doing every day (and has being doing for many years) and is not blinded by a campaign in certain US media. The oil for food issue looks bad and probably is, but that does not mean all parts of the large UN system is corrupt. The UN has a lot of experience in relief and done a lot of good things (by "UN" I do include sub-organisations like UNICEF, WHO etc.). Why do you think it was such a huge blow for the coalition when they pulled out of Iraq after the bombing? Here is an example taken from Fox News web site (just so you don't start ranting about left wing media). --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well don't let a day pass by without attempting to bash the UN or France... I worked years ago with a company selling equipment to developing countries through the UN system and sure there was corruption. On the other hand - same problems did exsist with aid from bilateral national aid agencies. The issue is that there is a lot of corruption in countries where aid flows to and is really impossible to totally avoid it. You will find the same problem existing with aid from private charitable organisations. Remember the issues regarding the money send to the American Red Cross for a specific desaster and ending in administration some years ago? The UN has a strong infratructure in most developing countries and a lot of experience in humanitarian relief. So - yes - I would trust them to do decent job with the money. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

All evidence to the contrary. Which evidence? These things do depend on your political point of view. If you think that Fox is "fair and balanced" - then yes most US media is to the left of them. But then again many would not agree that Fox is "fair and balanced" nor that Fox is in the center (but to the far right). --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Same here in OZ --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

The problem is that the right confuses the center with the left. Anyone left of Bush is considered liberal, even though he is an extreme right wing neo-con. Most people, and most news organizations, including NPR, fall within the center. Yes, same when Fox News calls itself "fair and balanced". I been laughing my pants off watching Fox News the last couple of days and seeing their intense CBS bashing. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

What I find interesting is that there no outrage about tax payer money is used by government to buy positive commentary for its policy. If this would happened down here the government would be in big trouble. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

What abuse? Lest I knew a terrorist didn't have any rights? There you are, giving a good example why it is unwise to start "playing" in the "grey" area. Hundreds have been held in Gitmo for now 3 years without any rights and not one has been convicted or been put in front of this "tribunal". Only a handful have been mentioned to be in the process of been put on trial (but nothing is happening) with the biggest fish said to be OBL's driver. Today a number of prisoners have been nominated to be released without charge - among them 4 Brits and one Australian. Some of those were picked up in Pakistan - not on the battlefield. Gitmo seems more and more to be an embarrassment if you think the US should follow due process. Seems many of those held got "caught up" and - well "bad luck - have been held in cages for 3 years. Wonder if China would do that to any Americans what the reaction would be. Seems very clear that far from all in Gitmo are terrorists. I think ist is sad that the US so proud of its "freedom" is behaving like a rogue State. So leaving the path of playing by the rules - rules being the rule of law, due process and respect for human rights and international law - will not win you the war on terror. It will only result in more terrorists and the loss of moral superiority. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

This will not work and it did not work in e.g. Vietnam. The population is increasingly turning against the coalition due to the collateral damage caused by conventional "warfare". Introducing death squads will only help the insurgents and risks a regional war. If you look at the re-definition of "torture" - the "bending" of international law and now this: do you want to become what you fight? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

The key problem is that it is actually difficult not to appear like a hostile occupying force, which again wins the insurgents popular support. Especially if you behave heavy handed. Here are 2 examples from todays media: http://www.theage.com.au/news/Iraq/Officer-jailed-for-drowning-Iraqi/2005/01/09/1105205976228.html and http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4159521.stm An Australian officer I met who had been serving in Baghdad told me before Christmas that many coalition soldiers think the US is acting too heavy handed. Trying to dismiss the insurgency as "terrorists" and under estimating its popular support will only lead to further problems. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

The key problem with the type litigous environment you have in the US (which we unforunatley seem to follow more and more of down here in OZ) is the (often hidden) cost to society. I remember working in Europe for a company selling industrial machinery to the US and we had to increase our prices to the US by abut 10% due to the very high product liability insurance cost. In the end it is the consumer who pays. I think people are aware about the cost and problems in the health sector, but there are a lot of ther costs. Insurance, the judicial system etc. I believe people should be able to achieve compensation for negligence, but things have to be within reason and people should be expected to take reasonable care themselves. I remember a friend told me how his company (in Europe) was hit by a large suit when a young child opened a hearing aid they were producing and swallowed the battery. They were told they should have written a small warning on the aid and they would have been covered. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.