mikkey

BTW John - I found a new Avatar for you. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

John, the stats are BS (no matter where you got them from) and you know it. We had something like 2 threads on the UK recently where your claims were proven wrong. And don't start me on the Austrailan "numbers" in your "piece". I live in Australia and probably am a little closer to it. The numbers are complete rubbish. Anyway, can't be bothered going over all this again. People who are interested can just refer to the earlier threads. Your obsession with countries who have gun control amazes me. Why don't you just focus on your domestic debate? In OZ the UK in Canada - people are perfectly happy with their gun laws (check the polls) and crime stats (no matter what you claim) do not indicate that we need to change that. That does not mean that gun control is the right thing for the US. Really none of my business and really - I think people in the UK and OZ (and mayby Canada) really do not care what you guys do in the US. But FFS leave us alone with your mis-information - we do not want to be used. And really - conditions in the US are so different from the above mentioned countries - why would you? In spite of what some of you guys think - some of us are perfectly happy with our societies - soime of us actually think they live in the best place in the world (I do) and we really do not want a society that is exactly the same as the US. Believe it or not... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Gosh John, are you at it again? Firstly what is the source? Secondly you have dished these "stats" several times in earlier posts and it has been prooven that they are wrong. Do you think repeating them make them more thrue? I can not be bothered repeating all that was documented in earlier threads - for those interested do a search. I think the job as Iraqi infrmation minister is still open for you to apply... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

One thing is clear. You have no fucking idea what is going on Indonesia, the history of the place and the problems of the country which can not be simplified into a Muslims against Christian context (and yes there are problems of increased Muslim radicalism fuelled by Islamic extremists). The problems are - if you want to simplify it - basically social and result in communities turning on each other. One of the key issues being the huge diversity of ethnic groups and social groups (from urban highly educated elite to former head hunters on Borneo). You just apply a lot of bravado and a few articles you can find. As I said, no wonder that so many Americans including your President have no fucking idea how to approach those enormously complex issues around the world. The only way you can look at a problem is a black hat / white hat mentality and clearly not interested in understanding the “details”. PS: Ever wondered why the US got is so wrong in their anticipation and management of post-war Iraq? Lack of understanding the history, the culture/mentality and the diversity of the place. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Another example: Indonesians living in the Moluccas are fearful of a repeat of the violence which blighted the island chain before a peace deal was struck in 2002. In the three years before the peace accord, an estimated 5,000 people were killed and 500,000 displaced to other areas of Indonesia. It was not always this way though. For many years, Christian and Muslim communities lived peacefully together through traditional village alliances. But resentments had probably been simmering beneath the surface for some time before violence erupted in 1999. Muslims believed that Christians were given the best jobs in the civil service - a legacy, perhaps, of the fact that under Dutch colonial rule, Christians were offered better education. Christians feared that an influx of Muslims from other parts of Indonesia, as part of a nationwide transmigration project, would make them a vulnerable minority. 54% of inhabitants are Muslim and 44% are Christian. These differences were suppressed under the authoritarian rule of former President Suharto. But after his downfall in 1998, the fault lines were exposed. In January 1999, violence finally erupted - sparked by a minor traffic accident on the island of Ambon. The conflict quickly spread to the surrounding islands, and thousands of people were killed in the ensuing mayhem. Outside agents - including Islamic militant groups such as Laskar Jihad, as well as armed forces from Jakarta - exacerbated the carnage still further. The violence continued throughout 2000, but died down by mid-2001. A peace accord was signed in February 2002, and both sides then set about rebuilding their lives and restoring order. For a while it seemed that the peace deal was working. But in April 2004, more than 40 people died in clashes sparked by an illegal rally by a Christian gang in Ambon. With the renewal of sporadic acts of violence, observers have expressed scepticism about the peace deal's long-term success. Edit: So I could post a history of violence for a number of Indonesian provinces. The reasons are plenty - but most have their roots in social and ethnic issues - some going back to colonial times others to the the forced transmigration of the 1960's. Violence and cruelty has occured on all sides. Faith issues have played a part - but are only part of a complex issue. But this seems too hard to understand for some people here who only understand the "good guys" vs. "bad guys" kind of things. Real world is not that easy... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Shows you did not (or did not want) understand my post. Problems in Indonesia are not simply about Christians vs. Muslims FFS. Here is an expample: Kalimantan - the Indonesian part of the island of Borneo - has suffered from a number of outbreaks of inter-ethnic violence in recent years. In the late 1990s, long-running tensions between the indigenous Dayak people and migrants from the island of Madura finally spilled over in a series of violent attacks. In 2001, hundreds of people were killed and tens of thousands of Madurese were forced to flee the island, pursued by enraged Dayaks. Tensions between the two communities had been rising for decades, in the wake of an influx of Madurese under the central government's transmigration programme. Transmigration started at the beginning of 20th Century, but it was not until President Suharto came to power in 1966 that large numbers of people began to arrive in Kalimantan from other parts of Indonesia. By 2000, transmigrants made up 21% of the population in Central Kalimantan, and the demographics of the region had changed dramatically. The Dayaks resented the increased competition for land and jobs, and many felt the newcomers were unfairly favoured at the expense of the indigenous community. New laws gave the government power to reallocate land for commercial logging, mining and the construction of plantations for palm-oil and paper production. Non-Muslim Dayaks form the majority of the population. Muslim Madurese arrived in the 1950s and 60s Migrants - especially the Madurese - assumed control of much of these industries. The Madurese were not the largest migrant group in Kalimantan, but they were the principal target of Dayak anger because of their greater wealth and the long-held stereotypes each group held about the other. Under President Suharto's regime, the military suppressed any attempts at violence between the two groups. But after his fall from power in 1998, the central government intervened much less in local matters, encouraging the Dayaks to take matters into their own hands. Violence erupted in West Kalimantan in 1996-1997, and again in 1999. But the worst incidents happened in February 2001, when at least 500 Madurese were killed in the Central Kalimantan timber town of Sampit. Some of the dead bodies were decapitated in a ritual reminiscent of the Dayak's head-hunting past. More than 100,000 Madurese were forced to flee the area to escape the massacre. The violence spread out into other areas of the province, and by April 2001 almost the entire Madurese community had left Central Kalimantan. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

What I find so interesting about this thread is that it demonstrates the way Americans see the world in black and white. No wonder US foreign policy is less then “smart”. Indonesia is an enormously complex issue. I live in neighbouring Australia, have spent quite some time in the country and have a Christian Indonesian working for me. It is soooo easy taking some news headlines to run some agendas. People need to understand that Indonesia is spread across an archipelago of thousands of islands between Asia and Australia with the world's largest Muslim population. Ethnically it is highly diverse, with more than 300 local languages. The people range from rural hunter-gatherers to a modern urban elite. Indonesia has seen unprecedented turmoil in recent years, facing first the Asian financial crisis, then the fall of President Suharto after 32 years in office, the first free elections since the 1960s, the loss of East Timor, independence demands from restive provinces, bloody inter-ethnic and religious conflict and a devastating tsunami. The current President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono is trying very hard to create a democratic state without ending up in civil war. This is not just a question of Christians having problems. There are huge internal conflicts between ethnic groups, between moderate and fundamentalist Muslims and major social problems. In Ambon, which is the centre of the conflict of Christians and Muslims – there have not just been bad things done to Christians – it has also happened the other way around. The key issues are social – the economic problems and growing poverty – especially in the rural areas – are a hotbed that extremists are trying to take advantage of. The worst thing you can do is to simplify all these issues to a Muslims vs. Christians issue. Unfortunately this is what seems to be done here. Firstly the western world needs to support the current President (and luckily Australia is doing just this) – things are actually moving in the right direction in regard to democracy and counter terrorism. Secondly don’t try to boil this down to some Muslims vs. Christians thing – this will only help the extremists. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Sounds like standard US foreign policy... see Iraq... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Because he is obsessed with countries which have gun control. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Ahh, now its just a joke. So all your endless negative and factual incorrect postings about other countries are just jokes.... Better put a disclaimer in all those threads you start "if I am again proven to use dodgy or false information - please note it was just a joke" --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

You make continuos claims about other countries crime rates in spite of a) been proven to often have used dodgy sources b) that it is agreed by those who are the experts in the areas (including the US department of justice) that crime stats in different countries are not comparable – with the possible exception of homicides. This has been discussed in many threads – of which you have started most – and in spite of the facts being provided to you – you just continue with the same old claims. You should apply for the job as Iraqi Information Minister. I did not call you a liar. I accuse you of ignoring facts in order to nurture your obsession in regard to gun control in other countries or your dislike of same. Interesting how the overwhelming majority in the countries you continually spread misinformation about their crime issues are very happy with their gun laws. “Information” and stats can be distorted for political purposes – and this is what you do. Reminds me of a certain President… --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Now I know who you are... Good to see you back..

Give it up. John does not care about facts. He continually posts incorrect information about other countries and no matter how often people prove he is wrong he will do it again. I just refer to the stuff he previously has posted about English Australian and Scottish crime rates. Do a search in the forum. I can just repeat what has been posted earlier in regard to cross National crime stats: From US Dept. of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics "Cross-National Studies in Crime and Justice", September 2004 - chapter concerning crime rates in the USA: These results and those summarized earlier regarding changes in police recording practices (see section above “Trends in percent recorded of reported”) raise concerns about the reliability of police statistics for measuring trends in crime rates. Homicide is an exception since there is no reason to think that, over the study period, changes occurred in reporting or recording percentages for homicide. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

So what was your point about Napoleon again? Napolean was born in Italy (yeah, Corsica) originally before he moved to France and became emperor. It was much later when he turned around using French forces to attack Italy. With Washington, however, it was a clean break, done immediately. One day he was a British colonist, and the next day he was a traitor to the crown for joining the rebellion, and subject to execution if caught. Oh, and as for Napolean being French because he was born on Corsica: France gained control on Corsica only three months before Napolean was born. You can't read? Corsica never was Italy. Check your Atlas and a history book. Firstly Corsica was for much of history (when not independent) under the control of Genoa. Italy as such did not exist prior to Napoleon. What we now know as Italy was a fragment of city states and small kingdoms for many centuries. The Italy we know was formed in the 1850's. Secondly Napoleon was born after Corsica became French territory - it does not matter how long before his birth this happened. Same as saying somebody born in Alaska or Hawaii shortly after these territories became part of the US are not US citizens (i.e. Americans). So he was Corsican (definately not Italian) and he was a French citizen. It also should be noted that Corsica for about 40 years prior to the treaty of Versailles was factual under nobodies control (the war of independence 1729 - 1769). It then ended up being French territory. This has been explained to you in other posts above. You just continue to present false "facts"about other countries. Seems to be a repeating pattern in your posts. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Firstly I think if you call a Corsican either French or Italian he will punch you. Matter of fact is that at the time of Napoleon’s birth the island was under French rule. So he was a French as much as somebody born in Hawaii is a US citizen. Capiche? John, you have such a great record of providing facts about other countries.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Anyone have an idea when the new L&B product range will be available? Just lost my alti and want to buy an Altitrack asap. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Not quite. What I meant was: The Dutch started building dams last time the sea levels started rising (hundreds of years ago) and have now the most sophisticated coast protection system in the World. Holland would be under water if they did not. So the lesson could be - if we can not stop global warming - and if the sea levels are rising due to reduced polar ice caps - maybe we should look at what we can do to protect islands and countries under threat and not just use all the ressources for marginally decreasing global warming. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

You can also "turn" the argument and say that it is better to invest in improving the levees the trying to lower the water level, i.e. use more money in protecting from changes in nature then trying to change nature.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I find it interesting that some of the same people who complain about "unfair" and unreasonable US bashing by people around the world are the first to jump on the "hate the French" bandwagon.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Bill, I wont get into each point of your post again as it IMO reflects the disagreement about the science behind the discussion well documented in the House of Lords report to which I provided the link. I recommend people to read the report and make up their own mind. You mention that some issues are "political" and not about science - and I agree - this is the crux of my point. This IS a political issue as much as it is scientific. The key issues from a political point of view are: - Should we base major changes to our economic infrastructure on science (and models) that is disputed? - What are the global strategic issues? - If we can not stop global warming (only marginally) as some scientist claim - should we then maybe focus more on how to adapt to a warmer climate instead of fighting a loosing battle? I don't believe that changing certain behaviors of the 25% wealthiest people in the industrialised countries will alone solve the problem. I want to be clear that I think we actually should attempt to shift away from fossil fuels towards alternative energy and also try to reduce other greenhouse gasses - I just think that we have to be realistic and a) ensure we do not shoot ourselves in the foot by damaging the economic infrastructure (as some measures suggested by "greens" do). b) look at what needs to be done to adapt to a planet that will get warmer no matter what we do. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Difficult to see you argument: As I wrote: We had a Medieval Warm Period from 800 to 1300, followed by a Little Ice Age until around 1900. Says Philip Stott, London University professor emeritus of bio-geography: "During the Medieval Warm Period, the world was warmer even than today." So how does your point sit with this. How can you say "we are forcing climate change" in medieval times when there was no fossil fuel being used by humans? We had global warming then and no human activity you now blame for global warming. I can not see that you are proving your point. I assume you might be referring to the popular "hockey stick" theory (which might be the base for your above point). Please note that some scientist believe they have proven it to be bogus (refer to the report I provided link to below). Well, I have not personally the scientific background to discuss this in detail. I do however refer to a very interesting report from the British House of Lords which documents that these are NOT as clear cut as the "greens" tell us. Here is a link: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200506/ldselect/ldeconaf/12/1202.htm It both documents the popular view of how global waming occurs and how it will continue. But also documents the sceptics who do not think that things are quite as clear cut. I recommend it as balanced reading in this debate. Some of the "sceptical" ponts to popular accepted "facts" and "models" used by the "green side" that are mentioned are: concerns that changes in ice-core record CO2 concentrations might have followed temperature rise rather than the other way round; the poor nature of the data used to compute the long run historical record, or alleged misinterpretation of the long-run historical temperature record; the GCMs fail to "reconstruct" the long term historical record; the view of some that the relative importance of the natural factors affecting climate variability, e.g. variation in solar output, is underplayed in the IPCC assessments; apparent divergences between land-based temperature records and satellite-based measurements, the latter showing some cooling rather than warming in recent years; the manner in which the GCMs are adjusted until they align with the observed data; the uncertain role of cloud cover. Firstly a lot of people do not have the economic means to create a set-up like yours. You also very conveniently forget the fossil fuel needed to peoduce the products you use in your household. You also forget the effect on production, employment and wealth a major quick reduction in fossil fuels would have. Not that I am against trying to increase alternative energy and cut down consumtion - just don't believe major quick changes are possible. Firstly China's consumption is increasing so fast that they are up to 5 million barrels a day already and projections say that they will use more then the US within 20 years. So I can see no logic in trying to only focus on reducing consumption in the US and western countries when the increase in China, India and lets not forget Africa will more then outway what we cut back in the West. The secondary effect is also a strategic shift in economic / production power which we already see. So any effort needs to be global. I see this as a big flaw in the Kyoto plan. I am just endorsing a more open minded attitude towards the global warming issue. Too much of the science that is being used as "gospel" can be challenged. I think governments should put much more effort into research of the issue. I am concerned we might be "wasting" resources on measures that might not have a significant effect. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Bill, Are you denying that we had cyclic “warm” periods before? You mention CO2 – so what about volcanic activity that releases enormous amount of CO2? I think no one is denying that human activity is contributing to global warming – the issue is how much and how much you can “decrease” global warming with e.g. Kyoto. There is quite a lot of scientific evidence that a) the human factor is not that big b) that we will not able to “stop” global warming or decrease it more then marginally except going back to stone age societies…. This does not mean we should not look at replacing gas with bio-fuels, alternative energy etc. – there are good reasons for that – especially the problem that we will run out of fossil fuels soon if we continue using more and more. I have also an issue with focussing on “western” countries alone. The biggest problem in regard to fossil fuels are India and China who a) have a huge increase of consumption b) terrible environmentally records (e.g. pump poison straight into the atmosphere and water). Those countries (and other developing countries in the third world) are being treated very “lightly” under Kyoto. I still think there is too much “religious” believes in the “green” movement and not enough rational thinking. It’s the same like certain politicians mix religion and politics… --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

First of all – I do think human activity is contributing to climate change – but much less then many claim - and I do think that reducing the output of fossil fuels is necessary – but more for the reason that we have limited reserves and have to reduce so we do not run out of oil, natural gas and coal before we have alternative energy sources. There is too much “believe” in the global warming debate and not enough critical science. A few facts: We had a Medieval Warm Period from 800 to 1300, followed by a Little Ice Age until around 1900. Says Philip Stott, London University professor emeritus of bio-geography: "During the Medieval Warm Period, the world was warmer even than today." Glacier researcher Roger Braithwaite noted in Progress in Physical Geography, some glaciers are growing and "there is no obvious common or global trend of increasing glacier melt in recent years". There is no agreed link between warming and extreme weather. As a House of Lords committee said in July, after grilling dozens of climate experts, "there is uncertainty and controversy about the underlying data required to substantiate this claim". The US National Climatic Data Centre says "other storms have had stronger sustained winds when they made landfall", including one in 1935. It adds: "The most deadly hurricane to strike the US made landfall in Galveston, Texas, on September 8, 1900 . . . claiming more than 8000 lives." A century ago. If anything, hurricanes are weaker. Says the World Meteorological Organisation: "Reliable data from the North Atlantic since the 1940s indicate that the peak strength of the strongest hurricanes has not changed, and the mean maximum intensity of all hurricanes has decreased." As a paper accepted last month by the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society notes: "Globally there has been no increase in tropical cyclone frequency over at least the past several decades . . ." And, besides, "no connection has been established between greenhouse gas emissions and the observed behaviour of hurricanes".. "There is no long-term trend in the number of landfalling hurricanes since 1900," says the National Climatic Data Centre. The problem is that is not fashionable to say that the current global warming might just be part of a “natural” cycle and human activity has only marginal effect. The well known “skeptical” scientist Bjorn Lomborg produced a paper some years ago showing that even using “green” scientists methodologies – a total implementation of the Kyoto protocol would only effect global warming in a very small way. So maybe there are better ways of using the resources used tgo implement Kyoto to look after the planet? I remember reading that the last five major volcanic eruptions emitted more CO2 into the atmosphere than the combined total that humans have produced in history. Something to think about….. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Seems like the US government has a tendency to "throw" money at business when a problem occurs due to lack of planning (same in Iraq). Found this article form the Washington Post on a news web site down here: --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Firstly: In regard to the article you found: Note the words "planned" etc. So not in force - I had however not heard of this development. Probably being done to scare drug using tourists away from the country. I have no problem with that and it has nothing to do with what was implied by the original poster. Secondly: "Rubbish" was towards the statements he made regarding systematically "setting tourists" up and state terrorism. Indonesia is trying to lure tourists to the country but deter drug smugglers. They are not “setting up” innocent tourists. If you are not smuggling drugs or buying drugs – guess what – you have nothing to fear. Same is true in most SEA’ians countries. Thirdly: Death penalty is normally given for trafficking of commercial quantities. I am not surprised by the % of foreigners as most of these guys are caught in airports (btw foreigner does not have to mean westerner - probably a few from neigbouring countries and China amonst them). You probably see similar % in Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand. Heck, even here a lot of the drug traffickers in jail are foreigners. Fourthly: No doubt Indonesia has corruption. It was rampant during the old regime (and Suharto is no longer in power). Fortunately the country is moving towards democracy and against corruption (they have to – they want investments). The cases you mention are except for one some years ago and have to do with the corruption regarding influential people. Again - the issue raised was that Indonesia would be “dangerous” for normal tourists to visit because you get set-up and land in jail. That is complete rubbish. And BTW … how many times have you visited SEA? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.