mikkey

The following link contains a map which appears to show that the barrier is well within Palestinian territory. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3111159.stm I think Israel would have got more international support for the barrier if an attempt had been made to route it fairly. As it is she has left herself wide open to accusations of land-grabbing. Agree with you. I am very pro-Israel, but sick and tired of Sharon's policies - it seems like he really does not want a peaceful solution. The other issue about the wall that I noticed in news reports is that the wall in places separates Palestinians from their own agricultural property making it impossible to make a living. I do understand that Israel is fed-up with the attacks and want to close the border, but the way they done it is unfair and will loose them friends. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

All news stories should always be digested with some skepticism... Here is an update on the story - it might not even have happened.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I did not know that Trump is a Democrat. Sure about that? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Interesting article I found down here. Is that a sign that Bush is loosing support in the part of the business community that does not have Iraq or military contracts? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

You need to keep this in context. The article was from the NY Post which is a Murdoch owned (Fox News style) biased tabloid. Here is an article from CNN that does not sound quite so hysterical: http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/09/kerry.concert.ap/index.html It is funny how these right wingers here whine about the more hateful comments. Just look how they talk about Clinton --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Funny that most people who have replied to the question are people who support Bush..... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Same goes for successful business men. Saw an article here in Australia where the majority of the most successful entrepreneurs never had an academic education or even left school early... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I agree. I found it to be bogus. Many questions are difficult to answer with "agree" or "disagree". Lot of the questions are impossible to answer this way (e.g. the first one), as it really "depends" on the situation and the context. Really did not find it very useful. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Sorry, but sometimes you are completely off with the fairies…. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

It means no free elections and no free press to hold the government acountable. This makes it more dangerous. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I agree with this. A good example is to compare countries with very low gun crime rates. You will find a lot of these countries have strict gun laws but you also find Switzerland where guns are allowed and most people have some at home. The reasons are more complex then just gun laws. Socio-economics, traditions and demographics (urbanisation) play a role in this. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

The linked article is a very lengthy commentary -not just "facts". Some of "counter" facts are debatable and "spun" the same way MM is spinning. I would recommend the latest Time Magazine that has a list of "facts" from F911 that can be disputed. Gives a better overview I think. I must laugh when I see the right-wingers here complaining about false or distorted facts, when they in turn defend the US administrations lies regarding Iraq. There is another thread here where these guys just still go on about WMD's and that Iraq was a threat and involved in 9/11, Cole etc. I am not a big fan of Michael Moore. I do not like people distorting facts and he clearly does. However the people criticizing him here are in a glasshouse. MM uses the same technique of selective "facts" that the right-wingers do and their friends at Fox News. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

1. Maoist/communist 2. Nuclear weapons 3. 1.2 billion people 4. Korea (Yalu River)54,246 Americans service men and women lost their lives during the Korean War 5. Vietnam 58,178 Americans service men and women lost their lives during theVietnam War 6. Taiwan 7. American sales of nuclear and rocket technology during the 1990s --------- You can add: - Fastest growing economy in the World (for years now). Second biggest user of oil now and probably the biggest polluter. - Largest Army in the world - Aggressive foreign policy Strategically China is the most important Nation to watch. Clinton knew, GWB is to busy being a crusader in the Middle East.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well untimately, yes, for invading to begin with, but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'd wager a bag of donuts that at some point in the furture we're going to see some of that money skimmed off. I don't know who's going to do it, but it's too tempting of a target for -everyone- to pass up. Many years ago I was involved in a business working with a number of international aid organisations (infrastructure projects). My experience is that this type of money gets “corrupted” very easily. You will see a lot of very rich Iraqi’s in a few years time. It will be a little like the formation of the new Russian “millionaire class” in the nineties when the state assets got privatised. Big Bucks = Big Corruption. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I liked the subtle bits most, e.g. when Mel plays an Indian Chief with a Yiddish accent… Mel Brooks’s early work (not so much his later movies) are the best comedies ever produced. Also loved The Producers and especially Frankenstein Junior. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Wow, I did not know that Iraq was behind all those attacks........ Where do you get your information from? Fox News? (or maybe the CIA ) --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Weren't you one of those who were upset about Bush's CV being posted half a year ago: RESUME - GEORGE W. BUSH EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE LAW ENFORCEMENT: I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine, in 1976 for driving under the influence of alcohol. I pled guilty, paid a fine, and had my driver's license suspended for 30 days. My Texas driving record has been "lost" and is not available. MILITARY: I joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL. I refused to take a drug test or answer any questions about my drug use. By joining the Texas Air National Guard, I was able to avoid combat duty in Vietnam. COLLEGE: I graduated from Yale University with a low C average. I was a cheerleader. PAST WORK EXPERIENCE: I ran for U.S. Congress and lost. I began my career in the oil business in Midland, Texas, in 1975. I bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas. The company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock. I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using taxpayer money. With the help of my father and our right-wing friends in the oil industry (including Enron CEO Ken Lay), I was elected governor of Texas. ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR OF TEXAS: I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power and oil companies, making Texas the most polluted state in the Union. During my tenure, Houston replaced Los Angeles as the most smog-ridden city in America. I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas treasury to the tune of billions in borrowed money. I set the record for the most executions by any governor in American history. With the help of my brother, the governor of Florida, and my father's appointments to the Supreme Court, I became president after losing by over 500,000 votes. ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT: I am the first President in U.S. history to enter office with a criminal record. I invaded and occupied two countries at a continuing cost of over one billion dollars per week. I spent the U.S. surplus and effectively bankrupted the U.S. Treasury. I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit in U.S. history. I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period. I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period. I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the U.S. stock market. In my first year in office, over 2 million Americans lost their jobs and that trend continues every month. I'm proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in U.S. history. My "poorest millionaire," Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her. I set the record for most campaign fundraising trips by a U.S. President. I am the all-time U.S. and world record-holder for receiving the most corporate campaign donations. My largest lifetime campaign contributor, and one of my best friends, Kenneth Lay, presided over the largest corporate bankruptcy fraud in U.S. History, Enron. My political party used Enron private jets and corporate attorneys to assure my success with the U.S. Supreme Court during my election decision. I have protected my friends at Enron and Halliburton against investigation or prosecution. More time and money was spent investigating the Monica Lewinsky affair than has been spent investigating one of the biggest corporate rip-offs in history. I presided over the biggest energy crisis in U.S. history and refused to intervene when corruption involving the oil industry was revealed. I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history. I changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts. I appointed more convicted criminals to administration than any President in U.S. history. I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest bureaucracy in the history of the United States government. I've broken more international treaties than any President in U.S. history. I am the first President in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove the U.S. from the Human Rights Commission.--this is true. I withdrew the U.S. from the World Court of Law.--actually what happened is the World Court is changing into the International Criminal Court--because the US wants to be a part of the court, but not be open to having the US have charges brought up against them, they have temporarily ceased negotiating with the countries involved in and taking part in the establishment of the ICC. So, in other words, the US wants to be able to establish the laws within the ICC, practice those laws within the ICC, but not have those laws applied to our country. I refused to allow inspectors access to U.S. "prisoners of war" detainees and thereby have refused to abide by the Geneva Convention.--Guantanomo Bay. I am the first President in history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. election). I set the record for fewest number of press conferences of any President since the advent of television. I set the all-time record for most days on vacation in any one-year period. After taking off the entire month of August, I presided over the worst security failure in U.S. history. I garnered the most sympathy for the U.S. after the World Trade Center attacks and less than a year later made the U.S. the most disliked country in the world, the largest failure of diplomacy in world history. I have set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously protest me in public venues (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind. I am the first President in U.S. history to order an unprovoked, preemptive attack and the military occupation of a sovereign nation. I did so against the will of the United Nations, the majority of U.S. citizens, and the world community. I have cut health care benefits for war veterans and support a cut in duty benefits for active duty troops and their families - in wartime. In my State of the Union Address, I lied about our reasons for attacking Iraq, then blamed the lies on our British friends. I am the first President in history to have a majority of Europeans (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and security. I am supporting development of a nuclear "Tactical Bunker Buster," WMD. I have so far failed to fulfill my pledge to bring Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein to justice. RECORDS AND REFERENCES: All records of my tenure as governor of Texas are now in my father's library, sealed and unavailable for public view. All records of SEC investigations into my insider trading and my bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view. All records or minutes from meetings that I, or my Vice-President, attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view. ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I have made the point in other threads that it is a major problem that US politicians do not understand the the Muslim / Arab way of thinking, i.e. "Baghdad is not Dallas". I have noticed how the "hand over" in Iraq has been celebrated. Today I open my local news paper and find an article by Amir Butler, who is "executive Director of the Australian Muslim Public Affairs Committee". I do not agree with many of the opinions in his article, it does however reflect very well the type of feed-back I've had from mainstream muslims. I also think he makes some valid points that might help to understand some of the reactions in Iraq. The article is in hard copy so I repeat extracts from it: A lousy kind of freedom Amir Butler At first, the justification for the invasion and occupation of Iraq was WMD’s and their certain use against Western targets. But now we’ve moved from pragmatic to ideological. The mission is now to create the first democratic Arab state; an objective …..(that) will alter the dynamics of the middle East for the better. …..President Bush’s messianic vision of a “global democratic revolution” beginning in Iraq, but ultimately extending across the Middle East. Only by democratising the Middle East can we on the other side of the world know peace and security. It’s a naïve idealism that betrays an ignorance of the nature of human societies and marks a dangerous course……. One destined only for disappointment and failure. As conservatives, George W. Bush …. should understand that societies are complex organism that have evolved and continue to evolve in response to unique conditions and experiences. That they cannot be transformed by either social engineering or force is a cornerstone principle of conservative thought. And ultimately, the utopian vision of democratic revolutions has its origins more in the idealism of the French Revolution and the Left than the hardnosed realism of the Right. There is no doubt that Iraqis, like all people, love and desire freedom. However, if that freedom doesn’t mean right to complete self-determination, unfettered by the interests of others, then that freedom is less than worthless – it’s oppression. The passage of some emaciated version of sovereignty and political freedom to a US purchased Iraqi government may provide a useful illusion of progress, but it represents nothing more than a changing of the guard. The export-grade freedom offered to Iraqis is constrained by nearly 100 US-issued edicts that demonstrate the farce of this handover. The edicts allow the banning of any political party or candidate arbitrarily, and US citizens are rendered immune from Iraqi law.…………………………. The fundamental flaw in official thinking on Iraqi democracy is the idea that, if given the opportunity, Arabs and Muslims will readily embrace secularism, democracy and social liberalism. One need only examine America’s forays into “public diplomacy” to understand the hubris that lies at the heart of White House thinking. Radio “Sawa” broadcasts American music into Arab homes and “Hi” is a lifestyle magazine typical of the sort consumed by youth in the West: marketing Western pop stars, fashions and cultural and social attitudes to intrinsically conservative societies. Unfortunately, the imposition of American culture and values is not seen by Muslims as being the solution but rather the very core of the problem. The campaign to bring secular democracy and Western ways to the Muslim world is not preventing the clash of civilisations, because this is the clash of civilisations itself. Like everyone, Muslims value freedom and desire the freedom to choose their destiny and governments that represents their own interests. However, after wasting hundreds of billions of their nations’ wealth and sacrificing so many young lives, could America’s commitment to freedom ever accommodate a populist Iraqi government that reflected the anti-Israeli, anti-American sentiment of the majority of its constituents? Instead, it seems certain that America and its allies will continue with the elaborate charade that the occupation is for the protection of the Iraqi people; each attack on Westerners by Iraqi insurgents will then be cited as a further proof of the need to to remain and, as more atrocities are committed by US soldiers to maintain the occupation and counter popular insurgency, our leaders will offer more apologies to Muslims about this is not what the West is really about. This may not be what America – or indeed the West – is about. But it is what occupation has always been about. If we are to continue to try to force the square pegs of secular democracy and Western ways into the round holes of a conservative Muslim society, then we will continue to see escalating resistance and violence. The ”handover” will make as much difference in Iraq as the Nazi-imposed Vichy government did in France. As mentioned above, I do not support the opinions of the writer, but I think it probably represents mainstream muslim thinking. Some of the points he makes in regard to the problems of trying to enforce western values on muslim societies make sense to me. The question must be if the whole US strategy in the ME is doomed due to lack of understanding of the local culture. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

No one seems to mention that Clinton was really entrapped. Linda Tripp tipped off Kenneth Starr, who again tipped off Paula Jones’ lawyers. Starr wanted them to ask Clinton the Monica question during the disposition because he knew this would force him to lie. Most people would have. Starr was supposed to investigate Whitewater and he could not find anything, so he used Tripp’s information – as he was out to get Clinton, one way or the other. I would say that there are mitigating circumstances here. Morally Clinton was /is not the nicest character, but then again – what about many other powerful men? JFK is called a great President and he was far worse when it comes to his sex live – including very young women and sharing a lover with a mafia boss. And if you would dig into the background of most politicians in Washington with the same vigour Starr did with Clinton, you would find a lot of dirt… I still believe it is far worse if a politician lies or misleads about matters of war or policies then about a blowjob. No matter if he lied under oath or not… --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

But who is going to provide the intelligence about this? The CIA? Based on the experience in Iraq, it might be very difficult to assess the facts... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Your statement is factual incorrect. Please tell me about terrorist attacks centuries ago? Terrorist attacks: Suicide and car bombings, kidnappings, attacks on soldiers and convoys etc. etc. have all occurred in Iraq post invasion. Many of them have been attributed to Al Qaeda, some to SH followers and some to radical Shia's like Sadr. I think many people are not aware how many hundreds of Iraqi's have been killed in recent months by these attacks. On top of that you have attacks on westerners - not just in Iraq but also in Saudi Arabia. I am honestly surprised how difficult some people find it to recognize the sad truth. The sad truth is that terrorism has increased not diminished since Iraq was attacked. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

You misunderstand. I was referring to tunaplanets very rude "demands" and dictating how exactly it should be answered. The second part of your post is not supported by any facts. Fact is that terrorist attacks have increased since the invasion of Iraq. Fact is that Iraq was not a sanctuary for terrorists pre-war, but that it is now post-war. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Then perhaps you should wait until we are finished and then make a decision. How long? 1 year? 5 years? 10 years? Which decision? No need to wait to ascertain if frequency of terrorist attacks has increased over the last 15 months. No need to wait to understand the fact that key Al Qaeda and Taleban leaders have not yet been caught in Afghanistan. No need to wait to see that number of westerners attacked and killed in Saudi Arabia and Iraq has increased. No need to wait to ascertain if Al Qaeda and similar organizations have been strengthened by the invasion and the aftermath (i.e. prisoner abuse). Fact is that Iraq pre-war was not an Al Qaeda base like Afghanistan. It is a hotbed now. Also, the focus on Iraq might have allowed Al Qaeda groups to reorganise themselves outside Afghanistan. The Madrid bombers came from North Africa. JI in Indonesia is still very strong and dangerous. So the next 9/11 type of attack (if it happens and I hope it does not) - probably might not be committed by terrorists from the Middle East, but maybe by terrorists from SEA or Algeria/Morocco.... If you care to listen to some terrorist "experts" who do not figure on Fox News, you might become as worried as I am. I am not saying that SH should not have been removed at some stage. But I am convinced that the timing was very wrong (too early), the pre-war diplomatic effort was terrible, and the post war planning was very poor. The way it has been executed it has increased terrorism – not diminished it. PS: Interesting how you "demand" an yes / no answer and then you won't do it yourself. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Answer one question, Mikkey...yes or no...Is the US done with our operations in Iraq and Afghanistan? Answer yes or no for me. No going into a long, word-twisting dialog. Yes or no? We are not in Abu Ghraib prison here.... No they are not finished - which just shows how bad the strategy and policies behind it has been. If the US had not diverted its resources to Iraq, I would bet they would have had more progress in Afghanistan. (it is now 2 1/2 years since military operations began and the top leaders of the Taleban and Al Qaeda are still not caught). I also bet there would have been more resources supporting counter terrorist activities in SEA and North Africa available, which have a large network of Al Qaeda cells and training facilities. Now you answer - has there been more or less terrorist attacks since the invasion of Iraq 15 months ago? Answer yes or no for me. No going into a long, word-twisting dialog. Yes or no? You are fair dinkum ridiculous... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Would be interesting to see some stats in regard to terrorist attacks and causalities in the Middle East pre and post invasion of Iraq. The argument that invading Iraq would diminish terrorism seems not to hold water. I often wonder what would have happened if the US would have focussed on finishing the job in Afghanistan, plus going after the known Al Qaeda networks in SEA, Europe and North Africa before turning towards Iraq. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.