mikkey

I do not appreciate your insults and personal attacks. Not discussing with you if you can't behave. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

No, but if they are terrorists, why are they being released without charge? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

So which is it? You have been proven wrong and made countless contradicting statements. Do you actually believe the things you say and type? So you don't know the difference between a terrorist and a soldier? A kid with an AK47 is very dangerous, but I do not expect a 12 year old being involved in blowing up trains and planes and especially the planning of it. Really - where? Facts not insults please. Why can't you guys have a discussion without pouring shit over peoples head? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well, we agree on the “agree part” of your post ..... In regard to the kids. I am aware that kid soldiers can be dangerous. But Gitmo was supposed to hold Al-Qeda terrorists who were detained in order to be able to obtain important information, stop them from committing terror and put them on trial for crimes. I have a problem seeing those 11-14 year olds in this scenario. (But no doubt I could imagine them throwing a hand grenade at US soldiers in Afghanistan) And by the way they were all released after about a year or two and reunited with their family. It just does not make that much sense to me. The reason I am bringing the issue with the kids up, is that we were told that the US admin knew what they were doing in Gitmo, that these were all terrorists, that we need not to worry about their lack of rights and the “home made” unfair legal process that has been created for them if they ever get put in front of the commission. The said “trust us” (like they said with the WMD’s). But the fact that they were holding these kid soldiers for the time they did and the large number of prisoners (119 so far) that have been released without charge – tells me that it might to a degree have been quite random who ended up in Gitmo and who did not. (The original story I was referring to at the start of the thread talked about that the UK prisoner in question had been held as a prisoner by the Taleban before being taken by the US and put into Gitmo for 2 years). I am bringing this issue up because Gitmo is part of this slippery slope where we start to compromise the exact thing that we are supposed to defend: Justice and human rights. I am not soft on terrorists – but I am strongly against undermining the principles that our western democracies are build upon. No matter how much abuse I am going to receive… --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Hot of the news wires: "Twenty-three Afghans and three Pakistanis held at the US naval base at Guantanamo Bay have been freed, the American military has said. The men were released in Afghanistan and Pakistan, US officials said. No specific reason was given for their release. In a statement, the Pentagon defended retaining 610 "enemy combatants" at the base in Cuba. The US says that in all, 119 detainees have been released and 12 have been transferred for continued detention. " So 119 have been released without charge so far and no way to know how many will follow. The legal limbo these people are held in was always justified by saying that Gitmo was full of dangerous Al-Qaida operatives that would be a threat against the US and its allies. Again, the facts as they emerge are: - There was a “kids prison” within Gitmo holding 11 –14 year old “kid soldiers”. Hardly your hardcore terrorist operatives. - Over 100 of around 700 prisoners have so far been released without charge and have to be either innocent or really “small fries”. These people have been held for over 2 years without any charges, without any access to lawyers or others, with no knowledge when they would be released. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

The article says: "physical conditions" not "physical treatment " (e.g. during interrogation) quite a difference. A visit would not be able to judge that - would it. Also note: "unusually blunt public statement " - the Red Cross does normally not criticize in public. I have not called him honorable - has anybody? I do not know if he is innocent. I just know he was released without charge after 2 years and that he (and others) are making serious accusations (read the article). If you had been detained for 2 years and released would you not try to make some money? I could imagine he might need it. At this stage it is not even totally clear if this was done by ETA or Al-Qaida. If it was Al-Qaida then it seems that Gitmo has not had quite the effect it was supposed to - has it? I doubt detaining 14 year old boys broke the back of Al-Qaida. Actually there are numerous indications (as discussed before in this forum) that the treatment of the prisoners (which is in stark contrast to any American criminal/terrorist) is only stirring anti-US feelings in the Muslim world and might just help Al-Qaida recruit support. (Just to be clear - I am happy to see any Al-Qaida terrorist detained, tried and even executed. I just don't like the rule of law compromised and "bystanders" sacrificed. The goal does not always justify the means. ) --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Flag burning again? That's a typical comment from trolls and assholes.... I was referring to that this issue has been discussed earlier and those "hard liners" were telling us that all the prisoners were hard core terrorists and did not deserve any rights. The facts as they now emerge are showing that this was maybe as much BS as the claims about WMD's. So time to re-visit the issue. The replies of people like you and some others are IMHO much more "a typical comment from trolls and assholes..." then putting some new information up for discussion. Stick to the issues if you have anything to contribute and don't call people names. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Point taken. Still don't understand why you dislike the BBC more then other media. A mentioned before, I have to take your word for it. But your original account did sound different. You said you were handing them over because they did not answer your questions and that the Afghans would "adjust their attitude" and then send the back. But I take your word for it. I am sorry but this is a cop out. You guys are holding people for 2 years without access to lawyers or anything and put pressure on. Then you release them without charge. This must mean that you have no evidence whatsoever that they are guilty of terrorist activity. Well, one was even only 11. Still - did you send every goddamn Taleban fighter you caught to Gitmo? No. Are we being told that the prisoners are Al-Qaida terrorists - yes. You must excuse me, but a young boy running around with some tribal fighters carrying an RPG is not enough of a threat to Global security to sent to Gitmo IMHO. It seems that it was quite random who ended up in Gitmo and who did not (again referring to the dangerous people you say you had to release because you could not hold them). Not correct - every PERSON prosecuted by the US legal system has the same rights. In Gitmo you are bypassing your own constitution. It is the first time that the US is applying a legal process (especially invented for the purpose) without giving people the rights. There are many US legal experts who think the US administration is more then bending the US constitution and the principal issue is still before the courts. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

This is old news and was reported a month ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3488175.stm An Afghan boy has told the BBC he feels no bitterness about being held in the US Guantanamo camp for terror suspects. More than a year after being captured by US troops fighting members of the Taleban and al-Qaeda, Naqibullah, 13, is back home in eastern Afghanistan. He spent much of his time in captivity in Camp Iguana, the children's section of the US detention centre on the tropical island of Cuba. …….. Unlike most of those in Guantanamo Bay, he was not forced to wear an orange boiler suit, or shackled and hooded. In fact, apart from the two other boys released with him, he says he saw no other detainees. ……. and http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3450687.stm Three Afghan boys freed last week from US custody in Cuba are back home with their families. The boys - thought to be aged between 13 and 15 - were the youngest detainees at the controversial Guantanamo base. They were suspected of fighting with the Taleban against US-led forces which invaded Afghanistan in 2001. The boys' detention without trial was attacked by human rights groups - one of them is thought to have been only 11 when arrested. The BBC's Andrew North in Kabul says the Red Cross, which helped re-unite the boys with their families, has been keen to avoid drawing publicity to their return. The boys are still minors and there are fears of reprisals against them. "They were in good form," General Baba Jan, Kabul's police chief, told Reuters. "They said they were kept in a separate cell from the elderly inmates and were allowed to play and have fun." ------------------------------------------------------- (underline are mine) So the conditions were clearly different for the kids. Now can somebody please explain to me: 1) If Gitmo is only holding dangerous Al-Qaida terrorists - why did they have a children’s department?????? 2) It seems clear that those boys were running around with Taleban fighters - but why in hell were they sent to Gitmo? And why did it take such a long time to return them. What does it say about the whole process?? 3) One poster who served in Afghanistan was telling us that they were releasing dangerous people who threatened to kill Americans because they could not hold them but at the same time there was capacity to fly 11 year old kids to Gitmo?? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Does the word "unconventional" relate to that normal rules of engagement were not adhered to? I still wonder why you were so upset that media from an allied country was looking over your shoulder. Got something to hide? Sounds different then your original account. : "Whenever they got cocky and wouldn't answer our questions, we'd just turn them over to the Afghan prison guards. Some of the Afghan prison guards were previously tortured by the Taliban regime before we kicked them out. The afghan guards would make sure the prisoners got their attitudes back in check and then they would send them back to us. " I was not there so I have to take your word for it. But based on your original account I would say you broke the rules. Me too, but you are assuming that everybody picked up during the war automatically was affiliated with Al-Qaida. Based on recent events and the release of the prisoners without charge I can not assume this. Why do you assume that ALL of the Gitmo prisoners are terrorists? I really would like some more detail. So you had the resources to send 14 year old kids to Gitmo and hold them for 2 years (before released without charge) but you had no resources to hold "very dangerous prisoners" and released them. This makes no sense to me. Please explain. I am not defending them. I am defending the application of human rights, the law and the right to due process. You guys give any serial killer (including the Oklahoma bomber) in the US greater rights and access to the protection of the courts then any of the prisoners in Gitmo. If all of them are very dangerous terrorists why some of them being released without charge? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Replies in italic And just what is making this so clear to you? AnswerI have been following the news - prisoners have been released with no charges over a longer period now - this does include young boys who were 14 years old when shipped to Git. Do your own research. (E) On whose words? The detainees? Yeah, because prisoners never bitch about conditions without being totally accurate. A: Again, I refer to the fact that a substantial number of prisoners have been released without charges. It must be reasonable to asume that they are innocent or small fish.The accounts of the released prisoners are all similar. (F) When did anyone other than you bring up citizenship? I imagine they would feel the same if American citizens had turned on the US and were fighting against it. A: This is a key point. None of the prisoners are US citizens (AFAIK). The one they captured in Afghanisatn was brought to the US and enjoyed the priviliges of the US legal system. (H) Where exactly did parajito say anything about torturing prisoners? You seem more than willing to presume a great deal and infer more than is said. Do us all a favor and just read what's written, not what you want to see there. Can you get to any other conclusion after you read: " I had to deal with Al-Qaeda and Taliban prisoners at a particular prison in Afghanistan. Whenever they got cocky and wouldn't answer our questions, we'd just turn them over to the Afghan prison guards. Some of the Afghan prison guards were previously tortured by the Taliban regime before we kicked them out. The afghan guards would make sure the prisoners got their attitudes back in check and then they would send them back to us." --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I actually agree with that to a point. I know enough people who have "been there" in many different scenarios over many decades even back to WW2 to understand that "shit happens". I do however not sympathise with points of view promoting brutality and violation of rules as the MO that should be followed. ??? So people who disagree with you are trolls? Maybe you should look in the mirror instead. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Interesting replies here. Mostly : "They are not Americans so we don't give a shit...." Ever wondered why anti-US sentiment is growing around the world? In regard to this post: Firstly: “The BBC was a constant liability to us in the field.” Why is this? Did the BBC look into issues where you guys might be breaking your own laws as well as international conventions? Secondly, if "pajarito" is who he claims to be and his story is right, then he just admitted that US forces in Afghanistan did violate international conventions by torturing their prisoners. Handing them over and let surrogates (locals) torture them is no excuse. I assume that the actions were also a violation of US military and civilian law. Interesting.... Thirdly: “Screw those bastards. I'm worried about our own guys. Not those shitheads at Gitmo.” Well that assumes that “pajarito” knows everyone of those prisoners and knows that they are guilty of serious crimes. I just wonder why so many of them then are being released without charge? If people are pre-judged and can be treated in any way seemed fit – where are the values the US armed forces are supposed to be protecting? Is there one set of rules for Americans and another one for the rest of the world? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Time to stir the pot a little. The number of prisoners released from Guantanamo has been substantial in recent time – not that the US media is dwelling much on this. The interesting facts that are becoming more and more clear are: 1) A substantial number of people held in Guantanamo are either totally innocent bystanders or “fringe” supporters of the Taleban. 2) The treatment of the prisoners (especially when you take into account that many seem NOT to be “top-operatives” of Al Qaeda) is unacceptable for a country that proclaims to be the bastions of human rights and legal fairness. The below is an article from the BBC about a British prisoner released after 2 years without any charges. He was actually arrested by the Taleban under suspicion of being an US spy and then taken by the US to GB. What has happened at GB seems to be connected to the total lack of legal due process. I can not understand that a country with such strong tradition for the rights of the individual and due process can accept that such a large number of people - who are either innocent or only involved at the “fringe” - can be treated like this for years. Another story about the treatments of other prisoners: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3509750.stm --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

If the documentation in Bill's and my post is not clear enough for you then you are beyond reasonable discussion. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

You make some very bold statements for somebody who does not want to do any research and find out the facts. But then again... am I surprised.? I refer to the material Billvon provided in his above post and can add a couple from a quick search on the BBC web site: 1) From an analysis on the War on Terror a few months ago by : More attacks The attacks have not stopped. In October 2002 the Bali bomb killed 202 people. Then came the attack on the hotel near Mombasa in November 2002. Then a lull, then the triple bombings in Riyadh in May 2003, killing more than 30 people. Then there was Casablanca, Jakarta and a whole string of major bombings in Iraq that may or may not be connected to Islamist suicide bombers sympathetic to al-Qaeda. US intelligence analysts are convinced that the US remains the prime target and that Bin Laden's supporters have not given up their quest to carry out a truly devastating and humiliating attack on either the US or Britain. Diversification Before the Afghan campaign of 2001, al-Qaeda was relatively easy to find. It had a logistical and command headquarters in Afghanistan. Now that it has been scattered across the world it has been likened to a hornet's nest hit with a stick. The hornets are everywhere and harder to catch. In order to survive, al-Qaeda has successfully mutated. It is no longer a structured organisation with different divisions for financing, recruitment and operations. Instead it has transferred its ideology and some of its expertise and finance to splinter groups such as Jemaah Islamiah in Asia, Jihadi militants in East Africa and certain North African cells in Europe. Hearts and minds The importance of this clichéd expression cannot be underestimated. Victories on the battlefield or in the interrogation rooms are meaningless if terror networks can continue to recruit from a large wellspring of discontented youth. And that is exactly what is happening. The wave of horror and sympathy for the victims that spread across much of the Arab and Muslim world after 11 September has long ago changed to something else. America is seen as having capitalised on those attacks by trying to "conquer" Muslim countries - Afghanistan and Iraq. The war on Saddam was seen by many as an unwarranted attack on a largely defenceless civilian population, already emaciated by 12 years of UN sanctions. Washington's military and diplomatic support for Israel - still the bête noire for most Arabs - is undiminished. Unfairly, many young Arabs blame their unemployment and lack of a political voice on a "US-Zionist" conspiracy aimed at somehow suppressing Muslims. But there is also now a growing conviction that the Bush administration has acquired a taste for regime change and will not stop at Baghdad. Threats to Syria and Iran to change their policies only confirm that view. Against this backdrop it is hardly surprising that the US - and its close ally Britain - are losing the battle for Arab and Muslim hearts and minds. 2) From an article in Feb reproting statements by George Tenet (Head of CIA) The head of the CIA has warned that the al-Qaeda terror network remains capable of mounting another 9/11-style attack on America. George Tenet said although the network had been seriously damaged, it continued to pose a major threat to the United States and its allies. Mr Tenet said there was evidence al-Qaeda was planning to recruit airline pilots to carry out attacks. "Terrorists" were still trying to obtain "catastrophic weapons," he said. ..... "The steady growth of [al-Qaeda leader] Osama Bin Laden's anti-US sentiment through the wider Sunni [Islamic] extremist movement, and the broad dissemination of al-Qaeda's destructive expertise, ensure that a serious threat will remain for the foreseeable future - with or without al-Qaeda in the picture," said Mr Tenet. .................................................... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

That’s BS and you should know better. The US took its eyes of the ball after the initial action in Afghanistan to pursue actions in Iraq, which it claims, is part of the war on terror, but it is clearly not. It is about strategic influence and securing oil. The invasion of Iraq has been the main trigger of major terror attacks against civilians in Turkey, Iraq and parts of Asia. The activities related to fighting the Al Qaeda network lost priority in favour of the activities in Iraq. The action in Iraq has upset many Muslims and has not only led to more attacks, but also a strengthening of extremist organisations like JI in Indonesia (do some research and you will find articles documenting how extremist organisations in Asia and the Middle East have gained ground). I am also sure that many of the people throwing bombs in Iraq did not do that prior to the US led invasion. The latest issue is that a fundamentalist political organisation (which has been compared to the Taleban) has grown very strong in Malaysia on the back of strong anti-=US / western sentiment. This might de-stabilise Malaysia at the next election. Do some research and you will find enough material regarding the increase in terrorist activities and the increased popularity of extreme organisations in Muslim countries. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I think there is a problem with certain "assumptions" being believed to be absolute "truths" when it comes to Global Warming. There is growing movement of "skeptics" who attack this. The Green movement has been very successful in getting everybody to believe these "facts". There are highly qualified people out there who think: a) That human activity has much less influence on global warming then most believe. b) That the money spend on "fighting" global warming in the modern industrialised world would be better spent on cleaning waterways, reducing air pollution, clean up chemical dumps etc. - especially in developing countries (if we want to protect the environment most efficiently) One of the more prominent "skeptics" Professor Lomborg wrote the following which makes you doubt if the money spent on implementing Kyoto is the most efficient way of protecting the environment: --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

The amount of terror attacks in the world (outside the US) has increased dramatically in the past 2 years with high death tolls. The largest were Bali, Turkey and now the latest ones in Iraq. There are smaller terror attacks around Asia every week. I know you guys don't give a f*** about what happens outside the US. Most of the attacks have direct correlation to actions of the US but who cares, its mostly "foreigners" being killed. There are indication that the invasion of Iraq has increased the recruiting of islamic terror organisations dramatically. Thank you Mr. Bush. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Seriously Gawain, you don’t want to go there.. If you try to divide Iraq along ethnic/religous lines you get an explosives mix. 1) Turkey will intervene militarily if a Kurdish state is created in the North. 2) Sunni and Shiite are not cleanly divided by geography. You will get a Bosnian type of situation. (i.e. a lot of minorities being persecuted in local areas). 3) The Shiite majority in the south might want to re-unite with their brothers in Iran and thus giving Iran control of the largest oil fields and the oil shipping facilities in the south. 4) It is risky to create an unstable Balkan type of ethnic/religous divide structure” in an area with some of the worlds largest oil reserves. Good chance that religous fundamentalists will have a major influence. This is just for starters. You are right about "Since Iraq was formed, it has always been governed by a strict, ruthless style of government. It has never had any real democratic traditions" - it was one of the points made by the Europeans when warning against rushing to war. A few people said prior to the war that Iraq would be nearly impossible to manage if "liberated" from the outside. Check back to 12 month ago and check what GWB supporters said about those who raised the concerns. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Good one....

Now you are really asking for trouble. "Small" issues like "Kurdistan" and the effect this will have on claims for territory from Turkey and Iran will "pop" up. Issues around the borders with Iran in the south, etc. etc. You end up with Tribal controlled areas with resulting faction wars and instability (a little like Afghanistan). This will not just affect Iraq but also Iran, Turkey, Syria, Jordan and the Golf States. That is like putting a light to a powder keg. And the Powder keg holds something like 70% of the worlds oil reserves. Woooha - hold on to your seats and tune in to "mayhem in the middle east". Gawain you really ARE a follower of GWB's school of "foreign policy made simple".... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Do you mean America bashing? Can you explain on which basis you make this statement? Your ability to grasp complex issues seems to be quite similar to GWB's. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Druse is a fictional character and the "book" is part of the plot line. The following article from AP gives you some background: Stephen King has embedded knowledge of 'Kingdom Hospital' By Bridget Byrne Associated Press LOS ANGELES - Stephen King still isn't sure whether he'll pop up in one of his Hitchcock-style cameos in ''Stephen King's Kingdom Hospital.'' ''You can't call what I do acting. But if they find a cameo, I may do it because I've got a lot of sliced ham in my personality. ... A lot depends on how well I feel,'' said the horror genre master. ''I feel a lot better than I did,'' he added. ''Finally, my body seems to be winning.'' The 56-year-old King, seemingly recovered from his near fatal injuries from being hit by a van in 1999, was very hands-on when filming began last year on this 15-hour, 13-part ABC series. Then he was hospitalized again with pneumonia and an intestinal infection. But next week - after a brief detour to catch the Boston Red Sox in spring training - he's heading from Florida back to Vancouver where filming continues on the humorous horror series, which premieres with a two-hour episode 9 p.m. Wednesday. ''Kingdom Hospital'' was inspired by ''Riget'' (''The Kingdom''), a 1994 miniseries by Danish director Lars von Trier, who shares executive producer credit with King and Mark Carliner on this adaptation. King saw the original in 1997 and ''was just amazed by it.'' He then hoped to adapt it for U.S. audiences, but was initially stymied because Sony/Columbia had the rights to make a feature film. The studio eventually made a deal with King to co-produce the miniseries in exchange for the rights to his novella, which has been adapted into ''Secret Window,'' the Johnny Depp movie that opens March 12. King wrote all but four episodes of ''Kingdom Hospital.'' (Richard Dooling penned the rest.) His viewpoint on both the natural and supernatural aspects of a hospital environment was deeply enhanced by his own long bout in the ICU. He created an alter ego character, Peter Rickman (a heavily bandaged Jack Coleman), who is hospitalized after being hit by a van. ''His injuries are much worse than mine ever were. He's got head injuries and spinal injuries, because that makes the story work better,'' King said. This choice also was inspired by the thought processes of the bed-bound patient at the heart of Dennis Potter's 1986 black comedy ''The Singing Detective,'' which King believes is '''The Citizen Kane' of miniseries.'' But he remained faithful to von Trier's original, keeping ''the really scary and really funny'' but removing some of the confusing gothic, ghostly background. ''We took away a lot of the clanking.'' Major characters he retained: Dr. Hook - ''the one doctor who is not a laggard, a layabout, an incompetent or a slacker'' - and the renamed Dr. ''Steg'' Stegman, who is definitely evil. Andrew McCarthy plays Hook; Bruce Davison is Steg. Diane Ladd portrays Sally Druse, who constantly checks herself into the haunted hospital to use her powers as a medium, while Ed Begley Jr. is the incompetent Dr. Jesse James. King, long an admirer of Davison (a supporting-actor Oscar nominee for 1990's ''Longtime Companion''), insisted on his casting: ''Nobody can smile and be mean the way Bruce can.'' Stegman does lab work with rats, which gave King the inspiration to write a scene that evokes the rat-infested ''Willard,'' Davison's 1971 cult hit. ''Steg represents so much of what's really wrong with this country. It's all about power and control and it's just run amok,'' said Davison, relishing this villain's role. ''He's bad and he pays the price for it, too, because it's the sure way to insanity.'' Davison and McCarthy, briefly in Los Angeles to promote the series, seemed sort of cheerfully spooked by their duties on what Davison calls ''Doctors Gone Bad!'' ''I think Stephen really appreciates everybody's quirks ... When I met him he was interested in the weird little things of my personality,'' said McCarthy, declining, with a grin, to reveal what they are. King, who has already created a synopsis for a possible second season of episodes, insists the show is ''a bit different'' from the mainstream. ''This is a little bit oddball, a little bit strange. It's not a 'CSI' clone; it's not a 'Law & Order' clone; thank God, it's not a reality show - it's not about carrying a tiki torch up the side of a volcano.'' And it's not like a regular series, he said, ''which has a beginning, a middle, a middle, a middle, a middle ... ''The promise that we make to the audience is the same promise that I always make. I will tell you a story and it will have a beginning, a middle and an end!'' --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

That is correct. But 80-90% are US forces and the administrative / political side is run by the Americans. Try to focus on the issue at hand. More and more civilians are bing killed, security situation is very bad, infrastructure and jobs are not being established fast enough, and now Iraqi clergy is starting to blame the occupiers. This is not looking good. This is going to be a long and bloody occupation. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.