mikkey

Wow, that was great. Three quick posts spreading a little abuse and "well documented undeniable truths'" around and you have again made your "valuable" contribution to a discussion. Sic.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

There are people claiming that many of the prisoners were NOT caught on a battlefield carrying weapons, but "arrested" suspected to be supporters of Al Qaeda. This complicates the situation even further. AFAIK the US is unfortunately in breach of a number of international laws and convention and is only avoiding breaching its own constitution by placing the prisoners in GB. I just find this very messy. If you want to claim to be the policeman in the world with any authority, you must keep the high ground on issues like this. Many of the prisoners have citizenship in countries allied to the US. Due to the secrecy and lack of progress, people are starting to feel sorry for these prisoners even so they might not deserve it. They are also asking why their compatriots are being treated so much worse then US citizens. People feel that the US thinks it can play by it owns rule and that non-US citizens are less “worth”. I do not think Americans understand how much anti-American sentiment has increased lately – also within countries that are traditional allies. The only way to stop this is to make the process more transparent, give the prisoners some basic legal rights and charge them. That might stop some of the “sympathy” if people know what the prisoners actually are alleged to have done. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Iraq is a different discussion all together (the prisoners in GB were picked up during the war in Afghanistan). That aside. I was not totally opposed to the war in Iraq as such. I do however have a problem with how intelligence was used/misused (and the stories we were told by Governments). I have a problem with the planning, the timing and the lack of a real broad international coalition and the lack of UN involvement. You are mentioning Aussie troops in Bourganville – let me take the example of East Timor. This action was fully co-ordinated with the UN – led by the Australians (with a lot of logistics support by the US). There was a post-conflict plan and the UN ran the civilian side successful until the new democratic Government could take over. Now – I know this was a very different situation – but it goes to the core of the problem. What I would do right now? Well, it has been mentioned before in other threads: 1) Get more non-US troops in (even if it means eating humble pie) 2) Get the UN to run the civilian side (even if it means less contracts to US companies) You cant’ pull out now. But going in “hard” as they have done the last few days might backfire. I have heard that results have not been good (not found much) – and that a lot of Iraqis are very upset about the “hard line”. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well, AFAIK all prisoners released so far have not been prosecuted afterwards. So does seem they were just unlucky to be somewhere at the wrong time (again we do not know how these guys were picked up). The article in question mentions that Sweden just neeeds to ensure that the guy in questions does not get involved in terrorism. Sure this means he won't be jailed. I read this as that he probably was a Taleban supporter but probably was not picked up "fighting". BTW I should mentioned that there are persistent rumours that a number of prisoners were NOT picked up in "action"/on the battlefield but arrested as suspects in civilian surroundings - some even in Pakistan. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

You are setting the yard stick very low... Just because somebody behaves worse then you don't make things right. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well, if your "moral / ethical" yard stick are countries in Africa and anything below physical torture is fine for anybody non-American etc. then we do not need to discuss. Just reminding you that according to GWB the US and its allies are in Iraq to promote democracy, human rights and justice. You do not seem to agree. Wonder what you think if this happened to a US citizen. And yes - the Kabul taxi driver case is well documented. There has been a well-researched BBC documentary on him and others held by the US. He had actually been prosecuted by the Taleban and ended up as a terrorist suspect held for 18 month or so.... released without an apology. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

No it does not. Seems the guys is a small fish and it took them 2 years to find out..... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well, I do not expect the US to behave like this or we have to invade them.... One of the problems is that due to the lack of due process and transparency, we do not even know where and how those prisoners were "picked up". There was not much of "old fashioned" battlefield there. A few months ago the Americans released some prisoners who had nothing to do with the Taliban or Al Qaeda. One of them was a taxi driver from Kabul. This is the problem. You want to defend "freedom" and "free" other people from tyranny and injustice? Well try to start with basic rights for your own prisoners even if there are many scum bags among them. America should be about protecting freedom, justice and human rights. As long as even only a handful of prisoners in GB are innocently held it is a major embarrassment and disappointment if you believe in human rights and a fair justice systems. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Interesting story from Reuters below. Questions that come to my mind: 1) If individual prisoners get released without any proceedings, what does it say about the claim that all prisoners in GB are high level terrorists and we should not be worried about the lack of legal rights. 2) I am surprised that the administration can get away with the way they treat these prisoners (of which a number now seems to be either innocent or "small fries"). Americans are supposed to be very focussed on the rights of the individual and protection against government abuse? 3) What do you say to people who get released after have beeing held in a high security facility for 2 years for no reason, no contact to a lawyer, no contact to family, no visits, no charges etc. etc..... "bad luck?" --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well Norway's population is about 4.5 Million. So that prduction adds enormous value per capita... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Yup, did not mentioned Norway as the Oil thing makes it a somewhat different scenario compared to the other countries in Scandinavia. I did not like the "system" when living in Scandinavia - and I do not endorse it, as there are a number of negatives with this type of society. However, people there are in average more or less happy with the "high tax - high welfare" system and the countries are wealthy. Just used it as an example to illustrate that the "truths" are far too simplistic.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Thought about answering in detail, but can’t be bothered. Try to be less self-righteous. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well Michelle, it is not my job to defend Kallend (he can do this very well himself). But could you just open your eyes and actually read the posts please. 1) Gravitymaster is admitting to post this without checking if it has any credibility. So how can it be taken seriously? There are a lot of people who can't be bothered to comment on these type of posts. 2) " F*ck off" type of comments is at a level where most people will start ignoring the poster. 3) I find it annoying how anybody who does not agree with the extreme right wing "truth" that is being posted here is being called a "leftie". Not everybody who is left of Attila the Hun is a tree hugger. There are a lot of “thinking” people that you can not put in a box marked “left” or “right”. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well depends. Take a look at the Scandinavian countries; they have”welfare” systems that Americans would call "semi-socialism". Taxes (both direct and indirect) are very high. When I used to live there I paid nearly 70% marginal tax, 25% sales tax (VAT) and a lot of luxury taxes on individual items like cars, gas, alcohol etc. However, these countries have a very strong economy, high GDP with the "middle income" families very well off. All education is very good and free, health care is good and free, un-employment benefits are very high and un-employment low. Everybody gets a pension etc. etc. I did not like the system because I felt it was taking too much freedom of choice away and was punishing higher income earners without kids (who could not take advantage of the “freebies”) - but again these are prosperous societies. Check out some available stats on e.g. Denmark and Sweden. So your statement is not the "undeniable truth". In general things are more complicated then what can be boiled down one-sentence statements. It is the over simplification of facts and opinions that lead to extremism. One of the reasons we have Al Qaeda is that some muslims have a very simple "black and white" view of the world and lack tolerance. Same problem with the extreme right in the US. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Thinking about it, you are right. Meaning depends on how its used/grammar: 1) navngive: naming 2) navngivne (person): specific named (person) Faber got me there, but he still can't speak English... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

1) Migreres (I am guessing "migration") : correct. 2) navngivne : naming / giving a name now where is my beer...

Could you try to discuss based on what actually has been posted? The issue came up due to this exchange between kallend and myself and try to read this first: Kallend: There is always a resistance in an occupied country. The French undoubtedly remember this from the 1940s. The Germans too, will remember from the opposite perspective. Yugoslavian resistance fighters caused a three week delay in Barbarossa in 1941 that was a decisive event in the European war. No doubt the Russians remember this. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mikkey: I do not think you can compare the occupation of Europe by the Germans (and what they were doing in these countries) and the resistance with the situation in Iraq. ……I know that you are talking about the principle of local resistance being difficult to combat for occupying forces, but it reads "wrong" to draw any parallels between WW2 and Iraq. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You replied: “Not true. There are many parallels. Just because you want to deny it doesn't change the facts. “ I challenged that and asked you to provide examples. I had to ask 3 times before you replied: “The forcible removal of an evil dictator is one.” Now, if you had the courtesy to read what we talked about – you would recognise that we were discussing the difference between 1) when in WW2 the Germans were occupying and suppressing Europe and 2) The US occupying Iraq. It seems you responded to something different from what we discussed. So reading the posts might help. 1) How do you know I am a liberal? Being concerned about the war in Iraq is being “liberal”? BTW where I live the liberal party is the conservative party. 2) You said: “I think that his is more concerned with promoting his liberal agenda than he is with the plight of the American soldier.” I take this as an insult as it is totally contrary to what I posted and what my intentions are. I have expressed my concerns for the people loosing their live and expressed my sympathies for their families. The accusation is an insult. Unfortunately I do not expect you “to get it” even with a detailed “run down”. I will not waste more time on your posts. Well then stop behaving like this and if you want to discuss then discuss based on what people actually write. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

John, I think that his is more concerned with promoting his liberal agenda than he is with the plight of the American soldier. *** So what is my "liberal agenda"? Can you under pin anything you say? Seems very clear that I am more concerned about the lives lost in Iraq then you are. You are behaving like a troll. And I would appreciate it if you stop behaving like a jerk. You are also showing great disrespect to the people who are loosing their lives. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I asked you about why you state that there are parallels between WW2 and the occupation of Iraq and you are not answering. I asked you if you (not me) believe that there are parallels between the occupation of Europe by the Germans and the current situation in Iraq and you are only replying by posting PA's. So why are you making statements you can't defend and when challenged only post PA's? Are you a troll? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Wrong, get your facts straight. This is from CNN and does neither include the allied troops killed (UK and Italian) nor the couple of US troops killed in the last 24 Hr.: So thats 260+ US troops alone since "major combat" and if you include British and Italian troops it is more like 300. Not to mentioned the hundreds of Iraqi civilians / police killed in the attacks. I think you should explain your point to the families of the soldiers killed. They really will appreciate this. At the current rate you are looking at 500 - 1000 US troops a year killed in Iraq (and you might be stuck for years there due to the security problems). So that is acceptable in your opinion? sigh..... If you approach it this way 9/11 was not even significant.... wonder what people who lost loved ones think about your reasoning. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well I asked for examples to underpin your "point". Either answer the question or stop making silly statements. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

That was the question and you said yes. Try reading posts before replying. If you want the UN to run the country in the transition phase the UN needs to run the whole show including security, i.e. they have to be in strategic command of all troops. If not - well then carry on as now. Good luck. BTW US troops have been under UN command before - it does not hurt..... The framework is agreed in advance. Not like some French telling your troops what to do day to day.... Thats not how it works. Try to educate yourself and check how other UN run operations like Bosnia are done. The US is participating in that one. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

So what are they? Is the US is behaving like Nazi-Germany in your oppinion? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Totally agree... Well, I do not think the relationships are that bad yet. The donor conference in Spain showed a lot of support. I read on European web sites that France and Germany do not want a new Vietnam/Afghanistan and are willing to help. However they want to be treated ncer by the US first. Those guys are not lilly white themselves anyway. Part of their resistance to the US was also selfish commercial issues. So if you bait them with the chance to make a buck in Iraq they will come to the party. Politicians are the same all over the world.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Correct. However you need to give real control to the people the Iraqis want - not the VP's buddies who will ensure contracts to certain US companies. Not easy - but the only way! The UN has shown in Bosnia in East Timor etc. that they are much better at "Nation building" and civilian administration then the US. However the "payment" is: 1) You need to eat humble pie in order to get the "we told you so - now clean up your own mess" countries to participate. 2) UN run involvement will still mean that the US military has to provide the majority of "power" for quite some time and has to accept being under UN command. 3) UN role means that the US will have to stop giving all the contracts to US companies. In order to get other countries in e.g. Europe involved you will have to give some commercial incentives too. Even with all this it won't be easy. Much of the damage has been done. The earlier the policy is changed the better. More heavy handed US response (e.g. bombing Tikrit) will only have the opposite effect. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.