mikkey

How old are you? 8? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Some people (especially those with mentally disabled family members) would find this offensive. Using disabled people for a “joke” is bad taste. You should have a think about this – like “what if I had a disabled child which I am trying to bring up and create a meaningful live and somebody posts stuff like that”…. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Based on the personal insults she gets away with on occassion, this must be the case. I forgot before in regard to the “clubs” MO: Step 5: Attack in “packs”…… Seriously though. You guys should look at your own posts and the abuse you are spreading before behaving “thin skinned” and squeal because somebody is giving you back your own medicin. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I know its Christmas and I should be in a charitable mood, but I do not know if I should be annoyed or bemused about how this “right wing club” on DZ.com operates: Step 1: Find some dubious material from a dubious source and post it as fact. Step 2: The other members of the “club” post “backslappings”, celebrating how those “lefties” do not dare to answer (normally which will be posted 30 minutes after the first post) and/or what a deadly blow this is against the non-believers. This is normally “seasoned” with some abuse against favourite targets like Democratic politicians or the French. () Step 3: Pesky “facts” posted or questions asking to document claims are either ignored or answered with some “you are anti-American”, “typical left spin” etc. etc. Step 4: Opinions attacking the “clubs” posts are dismissed as “hate” or the “club” gets even upset. Which is really the part that gets me. I see above comments by capt.booby and think about how the “club” is spreading abuse and hateful comments (do I have to say “Clinton”?). Time you guys got out of the glasshouse. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I think before making this a hughe victory for the GWB Iraq policy, you might want to read the below artice that I found on the BBC web site and which has some good analysis. Why Gaddafi gave up WMD By George Joffe Centre of International Studies, Cambridge University Although President George W Bush has sought to portray Libya's willingness to admit inspectors to examine its programmes of weapons of mass destruction as a success for American policy, Colonel Muammar Gaddafi may well feel that the success is really his. After all, the next stage should be that, soon, the US will renew formal diplomatic relations - and that has been the Libyan objective since 1992, when United Nations sanctions were imposed. Indeed, the Gaddafi regime has been trying for this since 1986, when US sanctions forced American oil companies to leave the country. Although Libya's idiosyncratic leader had not bothered overmuch when the US broke relations in 1980, the departure of the oil companies also meant the loss of American oil technology upon which Libya relied. Isolation The issue became more acute after Washington bombed Tripoli and Benghazi in 1987, demonstrating to the colonel that support for international terrorism was a dangerous policy. That became a crisis in 1992, after UN sanctions were imposed on Libya for the bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie four years earlier. The universal oil and travel sanctions against Libya gave Libyans a sense of isolation that many deeply resented. Throughout the 1990s, Libya sought to ease the burden, succeeding only at the end of the decade when it surrendered the two suspects for the Lockerbie bombing for trial in the Netherlands, after Britain had persuaded the US to accept the plan. So over the past four years Libya has re-established links with Europe. But unilateral American sanctions remained and those imposed by the UN regime were only suspended, not ended. Libya knew that it would have to pay compensation for the Lockerbie affair, renounce terrorism and accept formal responsibility for what had happened. Lengthy negotiations over the past year resulted in a compensation settlement three months ago and the end of the international sanctions. The US demanded still more, however, before it would end its own sanctions. It insisted on political and economic change in Libya as well as renunciation of the weapons programmes that Washington insisted Tripoli was continuing - although Britain believed such programmes were merely "aspirational". Reform 'vital' Libya would also have to help in finally solving questions about Lockerbie which had been left unanswered by the trial. This was no problem for Libya as its rulers knew that basic reform was essential. Although Colonel Gaddafi himself was deeply suspicious of the necessary reforms, his advisers told him that economic success and diplomatic respectability depended upon them. Libya had already renounced terrorism and even the colonel had to face the fact that stagnation in the Libyan economy was not just the result of sanctions but had much to do with public economic inefficiency. Domestic pressures, not least an unsuccessful Islamist insurgency at the end of the 1990s, meant that political change was vital, too. Economic interests Last year, a new prime minister, Shukri Ghanem, an economist, was appointed with an explicit reform agenda. Behind him - and radical supporters of the colonel - are reformers determined on economic efficiency and political change. Libya seeks foreign investment, not just in the oil sector, where European companies are rushing for concessions. Now, Colonel Gaddafi's son, Saif al-Islam, who is close to the reformers, has persuaded his father that human rights abuses must end and that political reform is needed too. Over the alleged weapons programmes, Libya had, nine months ago, proposed inspections. So the American acceptance of its offer probably says more about President Bush's success in countering his many domestic critics than about overcoming Libyan resistance to inspections of its WMD programmes. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Using a real photo is low class but creating fake photos to attack Dean is OK? Same when you guys talk about "hate" when people attack GWB and then reading your comments about people like Dean, Clinton and Clark.. These right wingers crack me up... talking about double standards..... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Please explain how the war in Iraq has resulted in progress in the "war on terror" and holding the men responsible for 9/11 to account? Are you talking the type of information GWB got in regard to WMD's in Iraq and the location of Saddam during the war ? (Remember those "precision bombings" - quite a few Iraqi's are dead due to these. ) --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

You guys are all using the assumption that Iraq was financing Al Qaeda. I would like to see proof of that. What has been documented is that most of the money came from Saudi Arabia - but funny enough they are US allies and buy US weapons big time. The only financing of terror by SH that (AFAIK) has been documented (and admitted by the Iraqi’s) was the payment of money to families of Palestinian suicide bombers. It seems the White House spin-doctors have done a great job creating a perception of fact for claims that are doubtful at best. BTW the situation in Afghanistan is not that great. Progress is not good, the security situation outside Kabul is problematic, the Taleban is re-grouping and It does not help when 14 children are killed by mistake in the hunt for Taleban fighters….. If the resources and money spend in Iraq had been targeted at Afghanistan in order to finish the job, the international community might now be in a better position in regard to the “war on terror”. Now there is still unfinished business in Afghanistan and you have a new problem and a new class of terrorists in Iraq (and notice that attacks have not stopped after the capture of SH). I am not saying that the Iraq issue should not have been addressed at some stage, but there was more “clear and present danger” from Al Qaeda then Iraq. I think the US changed focus from Afghanistan/OBL to Iraq far too early. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

OK, I am having a big X-mas party on Saturday and it is very hot down here at the moment. So I thought I'll make some Sangria for people. Looking on the net there are hundred of different recipes with lots of variations of what to put in. Anybody have a favorite recipe for this drink they can recommend? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

"Humor in Accounting" --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I think this "smells" very much of disinformation. We'll see if this will stand up over time. It might be true but I am sceptical and I’ll tell you why: a) "The handwritten memo, a copy of which has been obtained exclusively by the Telegraph" - funny how this "top-secret memo" gets to the press. If the US/UK had proof of these things they would probably call a press conference. But no - it finds it way to some newspapers. Classic tactic if you have dodgy information and you want it publicised for spin reasons but can not back it publicly because it might be false. b) "In the memo, Habbush reports that Atta "displayed extraordinary effort" and demonstrated his ability to lead the team that would be "responsible for attacking the targets that we have agreed to destroy". " Oh goodie - not only did Al Qaeda train in Iraq, but the 9/11 attacks were agreed with Iraq - hmmmmm and funny how this is "expressed" in the memo – (wink, wink) c) "The second part of the memo, which is headed "Niger Shipment", contains a report about an unspecified shipment - believed to be uranium - that it says has been transported to Iraq via Libya and Syria. " Now how convenient is that. We have two major issues on hand - one is the claimed link to 9/11 and secondly the "Niger" issue which both Blair and Bush have been beaten up on. Funny how these issues that have nothing to do with each other end up in the same Memo - poooh the smells intensifies... d) "Although Atta is believed to have been resident in Florida in the summer of 2001, he is known to have used more than a dozen aliases, and intelligence experts believe he could easily have slipped out of the US to visit Iraq. " So Atta is in the final preparations of the 9/11 attacks about 1-2 month away. He risks the whole operation, which has taken a couple of years to prepare, by travelling to Baghdad for training? Travelling to and from Iraq, crossing many borders is not risky for the operation or can draw attention to yourself? Now give me a break. This one snippet alone makes this story very unbelievable for me. This whole thing stinks of trying to create perceptions that will stick in peoples mind long after it is disproven. Remember how a majority of Americans thought Saddam was behind 9/11 when nobody officially claimed it? Somebody should do some more digging and see where this one really comes from. First question I have is: Is the “author” of this hand written memo (how convenient as this makes it harder to disprove its authenticity) still alive or is he conveniently dead? But hey, if this can be proven to be true, I gladly eat my straw hat. I have however a gut feel I might not need to. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

The BBC had this interesting "Panorama" report about the hunt for WMD’s. The situation is not clear cut yet. But based on seeing the report I would think that based on current available information it looks like: a) Iraq had a major chemical weapons program and large amounts of these in stock but destroyed it in the 90’s b) Iraq had an active bio-weapons program but never got to the “weapon stage” and the program was inactive in recent years. c) Iraq did not have an active nuclear weapons program in recent years d) Iraq was very active in developing long-range missiles by modifying their existing ones. That was the top priority in recent years (and in violation of UN resolutions). e) The faulty intelligence before the war was based on defectors who were telling “stories” to please the CIA and make themselves more important and secure better conditions. It seems clear that the biggest mistake made by the intelligence services was to un-critically “believe” these accounts. This is quite unusual and might be motivated by “pleasing the political masters” – which is not a good thing if you want good intelligence. f) Saddam might not have known the full extent of the situation (people were very afraid of him) – and if he did, he did not want others to know. This is theory/opinion based on what I have read so far and I could be wrong. Now in regard to the 9/11 “link”: I think the spin-doctors are desperate to create something out of very little. There is no doubt some informal connections can be made. Iraq as most other Arab nations is very anti-Israel and by housing and supporting Palestinian organisations, they would have had some Al Qaeda involvement as these groups have informal networks all over the place. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

You should probably have posted this in the "trivia" forum where it has been discussed. Now, the Boenish movies are only available in PAL VHS videos from http://www.skydivingvideos.de. The owner holds the rights. Carl Boenish's widow does hold the rights for NTSC video but does not sell them on the market. So the best thing to do is to order the video from the above source (good quality I have a copy) and then you can try to convert it if you are in the States. Skydivingvideos does sell the Boenish movies on a combined video - they are each only 15 min or so. It is a great collection. Hope this helps. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

0-0-0 my whuffo wife forced me to do all these x-mas preparations and attend an engagement party Sat night (and drive so I could not drink). So I missed out on the most gorgeous weather (not a cloud and 90 F) and the annual x-mas party at the DZ... Do not - I repeat - do not marry a whuffo.. Luckily I will have time off x-mas to New Year, so with the weather down here at this time of year I should be able to log 25 or so jumps those days plus get drunk in the evenings... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

From the BBC - Hope it is correct. Would be good news.. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

They are old and they are very rich. I seem to remember that they are near the top of the "rich list" for sports and entertainment stars here in Australia (i.e. they have more money then some of the biggest tennis and golf stars). After driving parents crazy for like 15 years or so in Australia and now invading the US - they are also very successful in Asia. "Franchise" groups in the different Asian countries have been formed (i.e. Wiggles played by locals in local language) under the control of the Wiggles. In the mean time they are making millions and millions. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Don't complain - The Wiggles have been torturing Australian parents for many years already. I am still praying every day for my 4 year old to "get over" the Wiggles phase of his live. It is the hardest part of parenthood having to watch and listen to things like: Blues Clues, Wiggles, Barney, etc. etc. etc. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

We should try to stick to the facts even so Saddam is a mass-murderer. He actually gassed thousands not millions (estimate is at least 5000 Kurds 15 years ago). He also used gas in the Iran war. How many were killed by gas in the war I do not know. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well I never stated that all the statements were wrong, just said they were only telling one side of the story and not giving the whole picture. I then put some context around it - try to read the post again. These things are complex and I said all the time that progress has been made. You seem to have problems seeing the full picture. In other words, it’s great if schools are being re-opened and electricity restored. On the other side it makes it all difficult if people get blown up walking the streets and the electricity supply constantly sabotaged. If you do not control the security situation the rebuilding of the infrastructure is very problematic. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I don't have time to do the search right now, but I clearly remember seeing interviews prior to the war with neo-cons including administration members telling us that it would be. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

This can be debated. As I documented in my post many of the “one liners” you copied from somewhere were only "half the picture" - I documented some of the other "half". You even counted a Nobel peace price and an election in Saudi as being a result of the invasion in Iraq, which is ludicrous. Please document where I have done this. Before you accuse people of "oversimplifications, one-sidedness and constant whining " better get your facts right first. Some of the statements you used - especially where current numbers where compared to May numbers when the infrastructure just had been "flattened" by US air attacks - were oversimplifications and construed. The number of casualties in Iraq, the sabotage and the number of attacks are facts. That the US has found the post-war situation difficult and not as "planned" is un-deniable - even the administration has admitted that. Many people are concerned that the security situation will make it very difficult to establish a stable and democratic Iraq in the short to medium term. This, combined with the lack of evidence that the "reasons" for invading used prior to the war were "real" has led many people to criticize the actions of the US administration. The reconstruction efforts so far have not been questioned by anybody as far as I know. So try to stick to the facts. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

You were the one using a bunch of very selective "statistics" and "facts" to show how "great" things are in Iraq and I was only pointing out that this way you can prove nearly anything - i.e. 2 can play the game. We all know the situation is complex and difficult. We also know some progress has been made. So best to not list a long list of "simple" one liners trying to "prove" things. That was my point. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Billions of $ and 7 month later you would expect some things to start working again. But if everything is so "lovely" why can't the US pull its troops back? Facts can always be massaged to fit what you want. A lot of numbers you use are compared to May when the war was coming to an end. That is a cheap background. Let me put some of it in context: I do not have the data handy, but every day Iraqis who co-operate with the Americans are murdered or bystanders are getting killed in terror attacks. The crime rate is extremely high - even in areas where there is no problem with Saddam loyalists. From the BBC: “The number of deaths under suspicious circumstances or car accidents has risen sharply since the end of the war. This is due to the lack of law and order and attacks on the coalition and Iraqis working with it. Human rights groups have criticised the US military for inadequate investigations into Iraqi deaths resulting from coalition fire.” From the BBC web site: “Water and electricity: Improvements in the water and electricity supply have been offset by disruption caused by sabotage. A consistent, clean water supply depends on a good supply of electricity to drive the pumps. Some days, Baghdad only gets two to four hours of electricity. Water pumping stations are still being looted and targeted by saboteurs.” Yes but (source BBC): Water treatment and raw sewage on the streets are an enormous health risk. This problem is closely related to lack of clean water and the electricity supply. Water pumping stations are still being looted and targeted by saboteurs. Cholera, dysentery and typhoid are on the rise. Medicine shortages mean 270,000 children born after the war had no immunisation. Waste water produced by 60% of Baghdadis is pumped untreated back into the Tigris. The river is the main water source for the people in the south. Left over cluster bombs and other ordinance is killing Iraqi children every day. From the BBC: “There are fuel shortages in all areas in Iraq, though the situation has been improved by CPA imports of gasoline, liquid petroleum gas and diesel. Humanitarian organisations are warning of a crisis this winter due to fuel shortages.” Iraqis are now used to queuing for up to 5 hours for 20 litres of petrol…. Oil production is at 900,000 Barrels pre war it was 2.2 Million… $7M a day in oil revenues are being lost due to sabotage….. correct, but: Before the war, 60% of Iraqis depended heavily on government food hand-outs. Humanitarian organisations say the situation has only got worse. They report much higher unemployment and disruption to the food distribution programmes. Prices for some goods are up, but not all. Earnings for those in work are up dramatically. An what has this to do with Iraq???? The US government is taking credit for this? Now has he? AFAIK he is alive and well and according to some accounts he is organising the attacks….. Nobody is denying that progress is being made. But there are lots of problems and they are big enough to force the US to keep a major force in the country and will cost the US tax payer a lot of money. And at the moment expert can not see the country being able to run itself. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

The US has been trying to get their help. They've refused numerous times. Are you insinuating that we need to "pay them off" to get their help? That doesn't sound very "peace loving, let's all live together, kumbaya" to me. No it doesn't - and who did ever claim that. International politics is very much focussed on strategic and commercial interests. Always has and always will be. The Europeans are not better in that regard then the Americans. The US has been trying to sell this "adventure" as something that has to do with WMD, terrorism and "bringing democracy" when the major motivation is securing strategic oil interests. And yes, if you want to get the Europeans back "in the fold" then you’ve got to kiss some ass and that means $. It's a cynical world. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Things are going splendid in Iraq? No US soldiers being killed or injured? Security being provided and you can pull your troops out by Christmas? Civil administration is working well and being run by the Iraqis? If the US wants to "internationalise" the situation and get this under control they need help from countries like France and Germany. Both countries have traditionally very good connections in the Arab world including Iraq. This is not a good way of getting them involved or pay for the re-building. There was a big "pledge" conference in Madrid a couple of month ago. I would not be surprised if some countries will pull their pledge if they get excluded from being able to bid. Also, having this large contingent of US troops and civil administration stationed in Iraq costs an enormous amount of money. So it might be cheaper in the end involving countries like France and Germany then going it alone. But Mr. Wolfowitz who wrote these guidelines is always right in choosing the strategy - right? Try to read what he said and predicted before the war regarding post war Iraq. He was responsible for the post combat “set-up”. The major reason for the unprepared ness of the US for the post-combat phase was his misjudgement of the situation. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.