mikkey

I do not think you can compare the occupation of Europe by the Germans (and what they were doing in these countries) and the resistance with the situation in Iraq. My late Father who fought against the Germans in the resistance would be greatly upset if he had read a statement like this. I know that you are talking about the principle of local resistance being difficult to combat for occupying forces, but it reads "wrong" to draw any parallels between WW2 and Iraq. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

If that is the best you guys can come up with.... what a load of rubbish. Firstly the Italians are dead and you should show some more respect. They are dead because of bad strategy and politics and yes I am blaming the US administration. Acting on bad intelligence, with no understanding of the real conditions, no post-war strategy and too much focus on "commercial issues" and in the process pissing a lot of allies off. And I am very concerned about the safety of the Australian troops and more and more people here are talking about getting them home before they are killed. And BTW what in any post does indicate that I forget they are there? And why would I wish secretly to be an American? Unfortunately I and most people around the world are affected by US policies and that is why we are concerned. I have a lot of American friends and I always been a strong supporter of the US - and as mentioned we are very much affected by the actions of the US - but I am finding that one of the strategies of the right wing seems to be to "piss of your real friends". The attitude of people like you is contributing to the growing ant-american sentiment around the world. BTW - the death toll from this attack has risen to 18 Italians and 10 Iraqis. Also AFAIK 2 more US soldiers have been killed in the past 12 hours. My thoughts are with their friends and family. I hope that people in the US will start to "wake up" and force a change in policies. Not only for the sake of the US soldiers and Iraqis killed everyday, but also for the sake of the allied troops in Iraq and the sake of maintaining the important alliances between the US and its friends. But reading your post I am sure you have no idea what I am talking about. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Relating to the escalating body count have a read of this and get even more depressed: http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/11/sprj.irq.cia/index.html So how many more killed before Bush gets it and changes policies? I.e. really get the UN involved and get Iraqis in charge (even if it cost some his campaign contributors a few contracts.....) --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

From the BBC web site: Very depressing. So Mr. Bush could you please repeat the "bring it on" and "everything is going well" stuff. I hope that even the right wing club starts understanding that the whole strategy, from intelligence to post war planning has been a total disaster. Unfortunately I do not think the current US administration is capable of turning this around. They are too stuck in their over simplified ideology and "good guys vs. bad guys" thinking. They went in with no understanding what a hornets nest Iraq is. The French told them by the way, but no - they had to be vilified for it.... This is getting really ugly.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I found the following article from the "Guardian" which is the first decent background story explaining what is going on in regard to this "Scandal" that is filling the headlines everywhere... Enjoy... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

When I first started in Europe in 1978 it was min. 15 Static Line jumps with the last 5 had to be successful dummy ripcord pulls in stable position. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

You guys are discussing the incident as if you have all the information. AFAIK the thread is based on an article on a military (support) web site. We do not know all the facts. So who knows, did he just fire his gun or did he do a mock execution (which is torture). Did he beat up the prisoner first, who knows. I can't make a judgment call without knowing more about it. However, in principle you have to very careful about crossing the line. Once you are on the other side bad things happen. The US military was involved in a lot bad "shit" in Vietnam (regarding treating prisoners) and has been careful not to repeat this. You do not want to loose the moral high ground.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

One of the key mistakes of Rumsi & Bush was to assume that the occupation of Iraq would be easy and that you can "build" a democratic Iraq with US troops occupying it. Soldiers are NOT police and they are not really trained to handle civilian security issues. One of the reasons that the "resistance" is growing is that the US military are struggling to manage the situation. The following is from the BBC and a good example (note Shias are the ones who were suppressed by Saddam and supposed to be "happy" to have been "liberated"): --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

How many breaks does he take for food and bathroom visits etc.? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Thanks. Real feed-back... What you suggest is in the pipeline. I was more interested in what type of social and skydiving activities other POPS chapters are doing which have shown to be popular with us old boys...(and girls). --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Just don't get the excitement. Isn't this the normal MO in politics? When Ken Starr was supposed to look into Clinton's property dealings it was politically motivated. They spent AKAIK $100 M on it, turned to his sex live because they could not find anything on Whitewater, and colluded with Paula Jones' civil lawsuit to entrap him into perjury. Then the whole thing went through a committee in the house and impeachment proceeding in the Senate..... So some people want to time the investigations into issues of intelligence f** ups to gain maximum political advantage. So what - its called politics.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Now mate, you are really out of line here. What a load of rubbish. Now get real, in the current security environment you had to do these things. Access was restricted yes, but that has happened before - just not that extensively. (BTW the place was in “shut down” for only a few hours). And the school kids story that has been paddled by people like you has been proven to be BS. Some tours had to be re-scheduled - but that was done some time ago and no real problem. I do not know what you smoked, but nobody has criticized Bush for his behaviour during the speech. And NOBODY in the Australian press did say he treated the parliament with contempt. He actually was congratulated for how he handled the stupid and rude interruptions from those "Green" Senators who were the ones not following the rules. The speech was not great but just the usual stuff. You have to be kidding me. The Chinese delegation threatened all kind of things if the President would be subjected to any protests during his visit. The Green Senators were actually banned from the Parliament during his speech in order to ensure this. THIS was a breach of protocols far more severe then Bush taking his bodyguards with him into the house. BS. When did which Americans behave “hostile and annoyed”? The Chinese had not the same security concerns, but they made it very clear that they wanted no embarrassment of their President or else.... Lucky for them the loony left and Greens were only demonstrating and making trouble against Bush not the Chinese, in spite of the human rights records of the Chinese. I am not a Bush fan (to put it mildly) - but as much as I can’t stand the rubbish the "right wing club" is dishing up here in Talk Back - I also can't stand the rubbish from the loony lefties and America haters here in OZ. PS: Anyone wants to find out a few fatcs of the visit should do some search on Australian news web sites. That will probable explain why I am angry at Mark. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I find this unfair. Some nutter (the accuser has a history of making false allegations and mental problems) makes an unproven allegation and you just run with it (and you papers). Sigh.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I just wonder what Americans would say if some US citizen had been detained this way for 2 years by the Chinese....... I just wonder. And yes, it has already been proven that at least some of the prisoners are innocent, i.e, a bunch of them was sent home after up to 18 month of this "treatment". No compensation or apology forthcoming.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

If the briefing papers on foreign poilicy in the White House were written like this GWB might even understand what is going on.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well, if Attila the Hun is a moderate then yes. Do you have any idea how ridiculous you are? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I thought it was clear enough or are you just pulling my leg? Every time somebody (here on Talk Back) quotes facts / news from CNN or other sources that do not fit the arguments of the "right wingers" they talk about "left wing bias" no matter how factual it is. You are pulling my leg? Isn't it clear? The Bush administration has been telling everybody how wonderful things are developing in Iraq. The growing number of body bags and lack of security is clearly showing that it is not going so well. Well, not stealing but securing the supply -plus getting a "base" of influence. Sounds weird but try to read some of the stuff the neo-cons have been writing in the last few years and you get the picture. And BTW stable Oil supply is of enormous strategic importance - believe it or not. I actually would rather support military action if somebody threatened the oil supply of the western world rather then being dished up fairy tale stories about WMD. You really believe the US went in there because of WMD? The country with the best and most expensive intelligence agencies did not only believe that their were all kinds of WMD, but that there were so many of them and "combat ready” that it presented a clear and present danger? Iraq was the main supporter of and "source" for Al Qaeda? Invading Iraq would stop terrorism? So you believe in fairy tales? And in regard to justifying the war retrospectively by documenting the human rights abuses and murders committed by Saddam & Co. – well if that is the case, why are we not invading Zimbabwe and a whole range of other countries? If the US administration REALLY were concerned about WMD's they would invade North Korea and Iran first. If the US administration REALLY wanted to stop the supporters of Al-Qaeda then there are a whole range of countries that should be invaded first: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Lybia etc. Believing the spin you are being fed from the White House is being naive.... It is always good to agree on a few things

Hi, I had a couple of jumps with the Australian "top-pop" this week-end and mentioned to him that I thought we should be more active in "POPS" down here. When you join you get a membership card and number and a textile patch for your jump suit and that is it. No communication and if you want to know about world meet or regional meet you need to keep your eyes open. So I offered to start an e-mail list for the local POPS and look at putting a web-site up in order to improve communication between members. I know that POPS in the US are very active and would not mind to get some ideas by learning how other POPS groups communicate and what type of activities are being held. Thanks. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

That was not what I was saying. Read again. It seems you are calling anything that does not suit your views "left wing bias" no matter if it is fact or not. Again, I was not saying that. What I said is that the "Bush version" of what is happening in Iraq has been contradicted by what actually happens on the ground. It is a crappy "plan". The plan was based on a strategy by the "neo-cons" to secure the oil supplies and get an ongoing foot hold in the Middle East (and finish off Saddam who tried to kill "Daddy"). The strategy is naive as it does not take into account the complexities - clearly demonstrated by the appointment of the incompetent ex-General as administrator who quickly got sacked. The biggest issue is that this plan was "disguised" as being about WMD (which do not longer seem to exist) as well as the fight against terror - when a) Iraq was not a major "source" of terror (Saudi is) and b) the action has resulted in more acts of terror - not less (in the region at least). Yes he had chemical weapons (that we know for sure). But it seems they were destroyed in the 90's. That is why neither the UN inspectors nor the Americans have found any. Why did he not tell? Well this is where the complexity of the region comes in that the US does not understand. There are several possible reasons a) Iraq did want it neighbours to believe that it had these weapons in order to have greater influence b) Saddam did not want to loose "face" or his own people did not want to tell him the truth because they were afraid of him. We probably will find out at some stage. Key issue is that these people think differently and that is always the problem if you are trying to apply "Texas logic" to regions where the culture and the way of thinking is very different. A couple of issues that are starting to come to light are 1) that the intelligence available was treated badly - i.e. used "raw" by politicians instead of analyzing it professionally. 2) That Iraq actually was trying to signal to the US that they had nothing and were willing to get the US to verify it. Supposedly Iraq did it via informal channels and the US did ignore it. This point is still a "speculation" and not confirmed. But it will be interesting to see what comes out of it. Well you are very much entitled to do so. If you are in the majority will be seen in 12 month. A lot depends on what else will be discovered about this whole thing and how many soldiers will be killed. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

4 great jumps on Sunday. It is spring in OZ. There was not a cloud in sky, the wind was moderate and the temperature around 80 F. Last jump in T-shirt and shorts doing a horny gorilla. Yea, baby... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Do a search in "Skydiving History & Trivia" forum. There is quite a lot of information and links about this. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well, you guys can continue to talk about left wing bias all you want when the facts don't suit you. The growing number of body bags will unfortunately prove that the Bush & Rumsfeld spin has been total BS - no matter which angle Fox and Friends are going to put on it. No matter how you look at it, this was was badly planned and it was based on some naive neo-con "grand strategy". The war was justified to other Nations and the US public by distorting intelligence and there was no fu**ing plan or idea what to do once the main fighting stopped. I was initially very supportive of the war because I believed what I was told regarding WMD's and I did not like Saddam anyway. I also thought that a government that unleashes "shock and awe" would know what to do once the main objective is achieved. I am now pissed off as it gets more and more clear what really has been going on. And so are many other people. I think most open minded people do not like to be mislead by governments... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Hold on, isn't CNN a leftists propaganda machine according to our "right wing club"? How come they are running the Bush spin? Fox makes it much easier, they just call the attackers "the bad guys" - much easier to digest and stops you from thinking how an invasion to stop alleged terrorism (which did not originate in Iraq) has resulted in a massive problem that starts smelling very "Vietnam/Afghanistan like". I have not seen the "right wing club" celebrating the "success" in Iraq here on Talk Back lately. Maybe the number of body bags is even starting to worry them. I just feel sorry for the families of those soldiers killed. BTW those "beat the French up" campaigners should read some transcripts from the debates prior to the war. The French were warning the US about exactly the scenario we are seeing developing. I wish this is going to improve and the coalition gets this under control, but I am not too optimistic. Far too many weapons available in Iraq and easy border crossings, and far too many people who hate americans/westerners.... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Anybody who complains about "boring" canopies should be made to jump a few T-10 jumps...... That will teach them... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

It is a US domestic issue, but I am quite sure that the public run health care systems in countries like Canada, Australia and many European countries is actually cheaper to run and does provide better protection and service for your average Joe. Where I live you can take up private insurance and go to private hospitals. But the basic services and doctor visits are either cheap or free and that works well for most people. I think Canada has a very similar system. I will do a search when I get time, but I am sure that I read about a study that documented that the US system due to its complexity is more expensive to run and you have the problem with people who do not have expensive insurance cover. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.