mikkey

Yes the French are difficult to work with (emotional bunch they are) - ask the guys in the European Union. However, the US really "pissed" on the French pre-war and they are really insulted (especially in light of their arguments pre-war look quite reasonable now in hindsight). Remember the antifrench "hate campaign" in the US media? Now, if the roles were reversed, do you think the US would send troops? But I agree that we need to put these things aside and try to solve the problem at hand. But the US can not just dictate the terms and they have to learn to be more diplomatic with their allies when there is a disagreement. It is problematic to kick people and then ask them to help. BTW do you agree with Bill O's last paragraph regarding "no rules"? I find this the worst part of the article. You loose the moral high ground if you think/act like that. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Let me try.... You want to know why this is crap? Well, IMO it is this typical oversimplifying very complicated issues and it is filled wit “emotions” and the presentation of opinion as fact. Let me say that I actually applaud the removal of Saddam, BUT this campaign was done stupidly in a politically sense (upsetting alliances, weakening the UN, and further alienating the Arab world). It diminished peoples believe in politicians by the misuse of intelligence and the bending of the truth, and there is an apparent lack of strategy for post war and exit. This was done to a timetable, dictated by the weather, the troop deployment and maybe domestic political issues in the US – not by the need for smart international policies: Example: So how is this WW3, i.e. this is very different from WW 1 / 2 or is the US to invade several more countries? The war on terror is (should) be a very different war to WW2. Stupid comment. Well you should be worried. Maybe Bill should talk to family members of the GI's being killed every day and also think about the lessons of Vietnam. Don’t go in without an exit strategy! So Bill lives in GWB’s brain? Or is the National Security Adviser? A very simple explanation on a very complex issue. Try to search sources for people who have studied these issues – it is a little more complex then that. Indonesia? That is probably new to many people. BTW they just sentenced the Bali bombers to death and they have a democratically elected government. There are issues in regard to Islamic radicalism and anti-west (not just anti-US) sentiment, but boy oh boy this is not this easy to explain. Yes Saddam encouraged suicide bombers in Israel, and he would have loved to “causing trouble for the USA” but is there any proof of Al Qaeda support by Saddam over the last 10 years? In spite of claims by certain parts of the US media – it has not. Even GWB has admitted that. Americas great “friend” with lots of US weapons and US bases – Saudi Arabia – was indirectly (and it was only indirectly) much more involved in 9/11 then Iraq. We have not seen the US remove the Saudi royal family yet. I agree with this (but is again more complex then described) Yes Israel needs to feel secure but a) having US troops in Iraq does not help any more then US troops in Saudi Arabia and b) the US should put some more “pressure” on the radicals in the Israeli government who do not seem to really want to compromise for peace. Does invading Iraq guarantee this? Iraq is a complex country with religious and ethnic conflicts. It has only kept together under dictatorships. It migt become a very weak democracy and how does that put pressure on Iran and Syria? It might make it easier – more US targets close by in an environment where people might be resentful to US occupation or influence. Also, Al Qaeda has “cells” all over the world and is quite loosely organized. They function even in countries that do work on suppressing them. A weak argument IMO. A huge CIA presence in Afghanistan did not prevent the Bali bombing and has not helped capture OBL. Yes the UN is difficult, but saying that they have no urgency about terrorism is a bombastic statement. The last sentence makes no sense to me. Because these countries did not agree with the American strategy in Iraq they do not help fight terror? Give me a break. BTW the criticism by the French and others pre war has been justified : a) no clear and present (urgent) danger (WMD's) b) a difficult security situation post war and problems creating a new system. Just what the French used as argument against rushing in. How? This is an opinion. Others think the US tried to “trick” the council with it tactics pre-war. Opinion is not fact. That is a disgusting statement. Did the French fight the war against the US? They did not help, yes, but they had told the US why. Now where the US is running into exactly the problems the French warned against – they are asked to send troops and money to clean up the mess. I find this extraordinary to come with this statement. What, why? Explain? Did they bomb US troops? Oh, they sold weapons to Saddam in the past, well so did the US. Well then start using the international forums and organizations that are in place instead of kicking anybody who slightly disagrees…. Calling it WW3 is a bad term. To a degree this is right, but they also use bad diplomatic skills and they do not listen to their friends. It is also new to me. I thought we were trying to fight Terror through international cooperation. So anybody who disagrees with the current strategy (that has not been very successful killing off Al Qaeda including its top leadership) is endangering American (and allied) families? What a tribe: “no Geneva Convention” etc. – yes torture prisoners, bomb civilians, i.e. let us behave the same way as the terrorists. Great way to victory – let us become what we fight. What a fool. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Unfortunately, with the bigoted diatribes you are posting here, I reckon there might be a few people who would not take you up on this offer. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

The Germans had a triangular student canopy which was popular in the 60's and 70's. Was called "Kone" or something like that. SL deployed AFAIK. Saw pictures in a book from the 70's. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

You are making some good points. I would however like to point out that during the early to middle part of the war in Europe, the most important contribution of the US was material and ships to both GB and (later) to a certain degree the USSR - some of it even before the US entered the war. It is not known if the British could have coped without this help and the aid the USSR received did help them. It is however impossible to speculate about thses things. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I love my Safire 2. I jumped Sabre 1 and find Safire 2 much better. However the Sabre 2 is much improved. Talking to people who tried both "2"'s, they say there is very little difference and it depends on personal taste. So you either need to do the demo or look at the simple fact of which one is cheaper. I am sure you will be happy with either of them. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well, NK sells weapons, drugs, anything to anybody who pays. So if you were looking for a REAL threat of somebody selling WMD to terrorists for use against the US or it allies - thats your biggest risk. Good that you know more about what I think then I do. So being critical of the current administration = believing the US is bad. Oh boy..... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well, less silly in a way then invading Iraq. They are in some ways more dangerous then Iraq... 1) They are developing or have nuclear weapons and would sell them (they are selling weapons now to anyone who pays). 2) Their leader is is quite disturbed and would most likely use nuclear weapons if under pressure. 3) NK is killing its own people by the thousands through starvation all the time 4) They have no "limits" - the Australians caught a NK ship with an NK official on board unloading a big shipment of Heroin in Australia a couple of month ago - anything for some $ 5) While spending not much in $ on military, they have one of the largest armies in the world (number of soldiers) I think it is about one million - if I remember correctly. NK is a real problem for the region. But the current US administration wont risk too much on this - no oil there. Invading would also be stupid - it would lead to a blood bath in both NK and SK. Difficult situation and wont get easier. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

That's sad. I liked both... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Well it seems that you and your friends sundevil and others are the emotional ones, throwing mud instead of arguing facts. It also those guys who post bigot post expressing views of "destroying" cultures and countries. Seems quite emotional to me.... So what about sticking to the facts and answering questions instead for a change? The posts above by me and others are challenging statements by citing alternative sources and asking for proof. "Going for the man instead for the ball" is the response it seems. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Nope, don't get NPR down here. I do have CNN, BBC, Skynews, ABC news, Australian media, Deutsche Welle, Scandinavian news services etc. I like a variety of sources to get several angles on a story. I am not politically aligned. Just don't like bad jounalism. Also have a problem with "circular" logic and "facts" that are really just an opinion. So your point is? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

If you would focus on the issues and not rant about beer, type face color and make derogatory comments your post could be half in size. I cannot remember saying that. I am saying they are not fair and balanced, they commercialise news, and they promote agendas (Rupert’s agenda), which is bad journalism. But they do it very well. There has been other threads discussing this and I mentioned some of the techniques used to push the agenda, i.e. which proponent of a certain view do you pitch against another, which news do you spend your time on, which comments do you attach to introductions or “wrap ups” etc. – the so called “examples” you mentioned are part of this. Interesting you can mention them – probably because it does not happen that often…. The agenda is not necessarily totally or officially aligned with the GOP – I would say it is close to certain factions of the GOP. But it is still Rupert’s agenda and he controls the “line” very strictly in his media empire. Certainly not “fair and balanced”. But hey - you seem to love it and find it fair - thats your opinion. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Again, it is opinion not fact - people base opinions on second hand snippets of information, circumstantial evidence etc. Most experts have access to the same information and most have a different opinion then your friends at Fox (who also - as documented in above post - are spinning unproven claims into "fact"). For every "expert" at Fox, I probably can find 10 who tell you it is not proven or even that the claim has been dreamt up (took me 2 minutes to find 2 independent sources on the BBC web site). Seems like you did not bother reading my post. Note that even Fox admits, "Well, certainly the administration has never claimed a connection" With the administrations desperate need to prove at least some of their claims from before the war, don't you think they would if there was any proof? The line Fox has taken in this matter demonstrates what they mean by good journalism and "fair and balanced" reporting – they are in the business of selling agendas. BTW I do not claim that the connection OBL / SH is totally unthinkable (but it is unlikely) – but it is unproven – and you can only call something a “proof” or a “fact” if you just have that. Anything else is speculation / opinion. I hope you continue enjoying Fox feeding you exactly what you want to hear. I watched Fox last night our time (your morning) from NY regarding 9/11. They were talking to some people who are suing the Saudi Royal family for alleged involvement in 9/11. The Fox News guy was kissing their ass, telling them how wonderful and good their initiative and work was etc. Then one of the guys switched into a rant accusing Al Gore aiding and abetting the terrorist when he was VP. The presenter cut him off quickly and talked about “running out of time”. I had to laugh – would have loved to hear what this was about – Fox was probably nervous that something they just promoted as a wonderful cause was promoted by people who would discredit themselves by promoting outrages conspiracy theories. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Let me see - he became a Muslim? You just crack me up. You are not for real are you? If yes, Jerry Springer just called - he wants you on the show. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Ahhh, finally you are talking facts and reasoned analysis. Well done. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

??????? Yes Al Qaeda's network is damaged and they use the war in Iraq to recruit people pissed off with the Americans. And your point is? Does not say the network is in Iraq, the network is all over the world including the US. The war in Iraq in many people's opinion actually might help them, but that does not prove any ties prior to the war between Saddam and Osama. From the same source: “The Iraq war was a setback to the ongoing battle against terrorism because it diverted intelligence resources and provided a boost to al-Qaeda's recruitment, a terror expert has told MPs. Professor Paul Wilkinson of St Andrews University also raised the prospect of a nuclear terror attack in evidence to the Commons Foreign Affairs Select committee. He said most counter-terrorism experts accepted there was a "significant downside" to the Iraq war and he suggested there still might be terror attacks avenging the conflict. Prof Wilkinson told the committee: "All of us breathed a great sigh of relief at the fall of the brutal Saddam regime. "[But] most observers on counter-terrorism would accept there was a very significant down-side to the war in Iraq as far as counter-terrorism was concerned." " --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Nope, not proven. Even GWB admitted that. Or as an English expert in Terorism said in front of the Commons Foreign Affairs Select committee: Prof Wilkinson dismissed suggestions there was a link between Saddam Hussein's regime and al-Qaeda. "The story that there was a collaboration between them was dreamed up in Washington," he said. "I don't know who dreamed it up but I have found no substance to it." You are just all over the place. Sure you are not a troll? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

A minor point - AFAIK people from 60 different countries were killed on 9/11. Not in big numbers, but don't forget. The problem is do you want to prevent it happening again? Killing lots of innocent people might just trigger the opposite - a major recruiting drive for terrorists. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Really. A meaningful position is a priest, a bishop a cardinal? They do not need any Latin? --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Amen - you hit the nail... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Let me see what I remember from Latin class... Vir prudence non contra ventum mingit (probably spelled wrongly) "Wise man does not pee against the wind" --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

i wish you were right. Depends on what is the objective and measure of success. Some people do not share your view. Have a read of this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2961044.stm Especially this: "Prof Wilkinson told the committee: "All of us breathed a great sigh of relief at the fall of the brutal Saddam regime. "[But] most observers on counter-terrorism would accept there was a very significant down-side to the war in Iraq as far as counter-terrorism was concerned." He added: "It takes time for al-Qaeda to organise major attacks of a specialist nature, often months are involved in terms of preparing the personnel, getting the weapons in place and so on. "So we may not have seen the outcome of the plans laid in these recent months of war." " I hope he is not right. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

Nobody can hold a meaningful position in the Catholic faith who does not speak Latin...... And you can buy the Koran in English at a book store near you if you want. I sometimes hope you just are a troll..... --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

One more time: Most Russians (ethnic Russians) live in the European part of the country and they are part of the Slavic ethnic group which is European. There are other ethnic groups in the Russian federation, many of them Asian. Australians live close to Asia - does not make them Asians so. But they really don't care. Racial stereotype arguments is for bigots. There was a guy big on "Blood and Earth" theories trying to classify people in those weird ways. His name was Hitler. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

I was not referring to you personally(read the bloody post) - I was agreeing with you that travel as such did not mean more knowledge as such and described an example. Sheesh... I was clearly being ironic that is what the bloody thing was for. Not cool to imply a different motive when it was clearly marked as irony. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.