Ron

It would suck, but ya know, I would understand. If you do stupid things, expect stupid things to happen to you. You have to look at the root cause of that accident....The root cause was not about a gun...The root cause was some kid breaking the law and doing something stupid. Blame the kid for his actions. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ask and ye shall recieve: Worked for these people: Here is some more reading for you: Some more for you: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Damn Kelp...We agree on something....How did that happen? Agreed, and I take it one step more...If you claim to be my enemy and make claims that you want to kill me..Shazam! I now consider you my enemy...You get what you ask for. This was both funny as hell, and accurate. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

England has strick gun laws...So strict that the Oylimpic team has to train in another country...Yet the cases of violence are RISING. And they still have people who kill other people. Gun laws don't work. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yeah its funny you can't admit you were wrong about that....And its funny that you let the guy who is trolling by posting this thread go ahead... Again another case of a greenie using his power to get his view accross and propel his political agenda... You and Bill get along just great together. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It does not look like Kerry is your man. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well if you are in FL...Look me up.. I have plenty. In fact just Saturday I was walking out from the Tunnel and a guy was drooling over my car. He was all excited and started asking me questions. I handed him the keys. I had to talk him into driving it...But he loved it. Drove it like a wussy-boy however. I then took him for a ride driving like a lunatic taking corners sprint car style.... His wife made me pose for pictures with him and the car, and she said it was the highlight of his trip to drive my car...He just stood there nodding and drooling. Man I could not live like that. I'm glad I live in a country where we have fast cars, gun rights, and cheap porn. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thats ONE way of looking at it...The argument you are referring to was if the right to bear arms was for the right to be concealed. Not for the righ to carry. I don't care if I have to hide it, or I can wear it on a holster wild west style....I only care that my rights according to the Constitution are intact. Now it would be MUCH safer if they were concealed. It would be harder for a criminal to tell who had one, and it would be harder to have a criminal take one away. The Constitition is clear...We have the right to have weapons. If the States want to limit the right to carry....Well thats the states right. But the Constitution says we can have them. And the Constitiution should over ride a State's choice. No where in the Constitution does it say Felons can't carry...But I agree they should not be allowed...I also think Felons should not be allowed to vote. I don't want a known criminal carrying a weapon, or voting. Being shot might be taking it to far...But he should not be breaking the law. He was not innocent, he was breaking the law. I'm still waiting for yo to show me a case where an innocent person was killed by a guy with a CCW. Here is a case where a CCW could have helped. While you could debate the right to own a gun....This situation would most likley have been better if she, and others had weapons. The 9/11 hijackers would not have been able to hijack 4 planes with knives if people on board had weapons. I think that Americans have the right to own weapons...Of any type they want. They should be allowed to carry concealed as long as they can prove they are safe (Just like anyone should be allowed to jump whatever they want as long as they can PROVE they are safe). And anyone that uses a gun, or commits any act of violence should be punished HARD. Less people are killed by guns that other forms of violence. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You have a past history of going against many issues in the US....Why should we look at this one just as "Polite" discussion? The USPA only gives sugestions...No one HAS to listen to them...The NRA would be the same. Plus the Anti-Gun crowd does not listen to anything the NRA does anyway, and would not support anything the NRA does. So the NRA could do nothing. Where have I said I don't agree with some control over the right to carry? Find it. As for gun ownership Vs. Canopy wingload.... Well the right to bear arms is in the constitution...The right to highly load a Stiletto is not. Find me cases of an INNOCENT bystander being hurt by a person with a CCW. Go ahead, I'll wait.................................(BTW they kid geting shot while vandalizing the guys house...guess what? He is not innocent.) Because our Constitution says we can have them without the testing. Its a right that we have. Now I don't mind a proficiency test for a CCW...But not every year, and it would have to be a fair test and not one made so hard that a person could not pass it. If the left had a choice they would make it so hard that no one could pass....Thus preventing people from getting a CCW. It should not be as hard as the one police have to pass....cause with the police it is their JOB. It seems to me that enough idiots on here bitch about us wanting to make them pass a test to fly a High WL...I find it funny that they think its OK to allow tests in other areas since those areas don't effect them. I LIKE the idea of testing to prove what you can do...Under canopy, with a gun ect....But as shown on here there are enough idiots that will oppose anything but what they want. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Self regulation, not LAW..BIG difference. I personally shoot every mth to stay current..and yes, I have noticed I am not as good as when I was in the military and shooting was my JOB. For the police it is their JOB to carry....As a citizen it is not my JOB and I should not have to pass the same standards as a person who has a gun as part of their JOB. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

WRONG...The Korean war was never ended....read about it before you spout off at the mouth. A war ends with a surender, truce, or an occupation. Korea is a cease fire. It hink a guy hiding them is worse...Particurly a guy that has used them and does not comply with a UN madate to show how he got rid of them. Last time I checked I didn't invade Iraq...I didn't say "Go get them"...I do agree with the invasion...Hell SH had 13 YEARS to comply and didn't....What good would 2 more mths make? He had them, he ignored the UN, he played "hide the WMD's" for 13 years.... All the while while supporting terroists and killing his own people for sport. Pakistan is not trying to hide the fact they have WMD's. Plus Pakistan HAS NEVER USED THEM. There is a large line between having a weapon and using it.... Who said I would believe him? But I bet he would give us access to look for them if it was part of any deal, not play "Hide the WMD's" and not let us talk to people who would know like SH did. More than killing a group of people just cause you can, and to test the weapons. There is NEVER a quarantee on anything. But the fact that Korea is willing to deal, and SH was not (in fact he did everything he could to stall the process) speaks volumes of the differences of the two. As for the US and use of WMD's....Over HALF A MILLION lives were saved by the use of those two weapons. Also they were used during a WAR that was STARTED by the Japaniese. Japan's congress could not come to a surender agreement. they had to have 100% vote to surrender. The War commisioner (Whose name escapes me at the moment) would NEVER vote to surrender. It was only After the second Bomb on Nakisaki that the Emperor BEGGED the congress to surender. If he had not done that then the only other option was to invade the island of Japan with a landing force...That was going to be UGLY as shown by the landings on the other Pacific islands. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The USPA says that... The Government (FAA..ect) does not care. It is perfectly LEGAL for me to take a 10 year old kid up in a Cessna 152 without a S/L, AAD, RSL, or any training and let him jump as long as he has TSO'ed and in date equipment. The same is true for recurrency issues....I can rent a plane or go to a NON-USPA DZ and let my buddy that has not jumped in 10 years do an 40 way if we want. The USPA is not law. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not after the FJC. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

We are at war with Korea...We are in a 30+ year cease fire. Korea has admitted to WMD's SH had them but would not show if/how he got rid of them. Korea was not under UN sanctions to not have any. Korea does not support terrorism....SH gave 25,000.00 to the families of any suicide bomber. Korea is willing to negotiate the surender of any WMD's for aid. Korea does not kill its own people for sport. Korea has never USED a WMD, much less on it's own people. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And saying anyone that accepts a single approach to a complicated subject is literate is wrong? You see I see that as Anvil targeting a group. Or just typing out a long response on how Bush supporters are WAR MONGERS would be an insult as well. The fuzzy line you are talking about...why is it you seem to always be on the Liberal side of it? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And calling all of us that support Bush WAR MONGERS...Thats nothing? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thats a pretty good kit. It is Electric or .10-.15 power. 2 stroke. It has a boxy fuse however. I have been looking for a better one, but have not found one. There USED to be a great kit, but ti is not made anymore. Dave, you don't have to sync the engines that much, and there is a single otter kit already being made in Canada. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I'm willing to bet that if the Palestinians quit trying to kill the Jews that Jews would be quite happy to quit killing Palestainians... However, the Palestinians want the Jews destroyed, and will not stop till they win. Killing is wrong, but the Jews would stop if they stopped getting attacked. I am not sure the Palestinians will stop till they rid themselves of the Jews, or are destroyed. See the difference? One attacks to prevent attacks. One attacks to destroy and eliminate. Their freedom is taken away ONLY in Israel....The rest of the world they can do as they please. If they were not trying to eliminate the Jews...They they would be free to do as they please IN Israel as well. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, we have to pick sides.... ALmost 60 years ago the World felt like shit for how Germany treated the Jews. The World (minus the people who owned the land) gave the Jews Israel. The World Fucked up. The Palestineans (SP?) got pissed.....Duh! As would you or I if someone came and took our land from us and gave it to someone that was diametricly opposed to our beliefs. So they started fighting them...Again, Duh! Well the World backed them...Again just defending the stupid thing they did. The Jews want to defend Israel...DUH, just like you or I would defend the US from attack (Well not everyone is willing to defend the country as some on these boards show.) I understand BOTH sides. What can be done? a. You can give Israel back....Yeah right, would you give up your land? The origin of your religion? Your home? Not gonna happen. b. The Palistineans say "Well OK, we are not gonna fight about it any more"....Yeah right. They HATE the Jews. They are using the occupation as an EXCUSE to fight...It's not the reason. Islam extemests HATE anyone that is not Muslim...and not just Muslim...But just like them. There is an old George Carlin bit..."You believe in God? Good...You belive in MY GOD? No? Bam!" Hell, different sects of ALL religions have issues with the other sects...Its just that in a third world country they have strong religious beliefs, and are willing to die for them since life sucks so bad there. You don't see many people in a modern country willing to die for God do you? It's cause even when life sucks in the US it's still pretty good. Some 3rd world nation when life sucks, it REALLY sucks. Thats why in the US religion is growing smaller, but in 3rd world countries it is getting stronger... When life sucks you look for strength that can't be seen. c. The World stops supporting Israel...Israel will then fall to the Palistineans...Problem...Israel has nukes...And would use them. I would. So we have a Nuclear attack launch that would piss off ALL of the Muslims in the world. You think they are pissed now? Nuke a few of them. So the only REAL answers are: a. Be so strong that when idiots attack...They get crushed. And make it REALLY hard to attack you. Case in point is the wall in the west bank. That wall should be tall and strong and once in place they should kick ALL Muslims out of Isreal...Tell them, "Sorry guys, have a great life on that side, but if you come accross this line....You die". b. Economic aid to the Muslims....Make their lives better so they are not so willing to die. c. Time. It will take time after the killings stop for the kids that grow up in a better place to not want to die to avenge their uncle, brother, cousin...ect that died in Jihad. If they have the choice of playing a PS2, or strapping a bomb on...Most kids will play playstation. The killings have to stop....But the Muslims are not going to by choice...So we have to make them..Be strong and not let them get us...Kill the ones that try, and ONLY the ones that try. Get them Playstations. Make it so that their lives are not crap. They will not be so willing to die. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You are the President of the US...You are told that an Accident happened...Then a few min later you are told that the US is under attack in a way that was not thought possible....And attack larger than any attack on US soil...ever. You think FDR jumped up and called the troops to action in 1 min after Peal Harbor? I doubt it. And the other thing is you Bush bashers would have gone nuts if he did just get up....You already are saying he acted to fast on everything else... Yes, he should have left the room... But its called shock people....Humans experience it. Bush is not super human. I can't find fault in 7 mins. 1. If he was needed they would have gotten him. 2. If he was at risk, they would have had him out of there...As it was in less than 30 min he was airborne with no destination. In 1 hour they had the Vice and his wife in the bunker in contact with the Pres in AF1 on comms and F15 scrambled in the skies....Really not bad. 3. You have very little confidence in any part of the US defense system if you think that things were not happening or could not happen without the President. 4. You know NOTHING about security if you think they should have grabbed him that second. 5. You know nothing about stress and leadership if you think that you or anyone could have handled it better. Get over 7 mins. And he glosses right over the fact that those same kids use the system, cash the paychecks, go to school...until they are asked to DO THE JOB THEY WILLINGLY SIGNED UP TO DO. He had them, he used them, and he never said how he got rid of them like he was supposed to under the UN resolution. He was guilty. He was never innocent. Your buddy Kerry said he was quilty, the UN said he was quilty. Then you know NOTHING about HOW the contracts were "handed out"...I suggest you read up on it... You know how hard it would have been for the companies that bid to challenge it? ONE STAMP....All they had to do was send ONE letter...Yet no one did. And for the record, there are VERY few companies that can handle a contract of that size and scope with the security needed.... I guess you would have prefered we risked our guys lives on a new untried company? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I saw it...It is a load of tripe. The standard "Bush stole the election" lies. Saying that the Supreme Court put GW in the WH cause his dady put them on the SC...UH, they are on for life. Why would they? And he did say exactly that. And what about the part where not ONE Senator would sign the paperwork needed to contest the SC ruling? The 9/11 attacks didn't show ONE picture of the towers....Selective editing. The event was so important, but it didn't warrent even ONE picture? Would you have prefered he screamed like a little girl and ran out? If you bother to LOOK at him you can tell he is thinking as harder than most....Would he have been able to think better in another room? maybe, maybe not....Do I think that if he WAS really need they would pull him out? Yes. I was in shock when I was told...In fact I though my SGT was lying to me...Were you cool and ready to make choices that would effect MILLIONS? 7 min is nothing. I just read the 9/11 report...I thinka little over an hour from the first attack to the President being in the air, and the VP in the bunker and getting F-15 airborne was pretty damed good. The little BS part on why did the WH when they released his records black out the part about the other person listed...Well last I checked the other guy was not being questioned...I would hope that if a guy I served with was ever questioned and they released his records they would black MY name out. The financial ties....Uh, guess what? They are all shaky, and he passes them off as facts... The Saudis do have financial ties to us...Quess what? So does Japan and about a hundred other countries. Plus half of the financial stuff was about buisness...Guess what? Thats life. The kid flying the kite, and the others all happy prior to the invasion...You find it funny that he didn't show him gassing his own people, or his sons raping and killing people for sport....Or people being fed into meat grinders, thrown off of buildings, ect? I also find it funny that he shows Saudi Arabia beheading a guy, but skips right over Saddams human relations violations. (Such as his son telling his potential Olympic team that if they don't win he will kill them). He also does not show any pictures of kids playing AFTER the invasion...what they are not playing now? And Kerry didn't play to the industrial workers in Detroit? Kerry does not try to act like "A man of the people"..(even though he has several MILLION dollar homes). Gee thats what you do when you give a political speech...you try to win the audience. Then he goes on about how the Military targets poor kids....Duh!!! They have been doing that for 200 years, now its a big issue? I didn't hear complaints while kids used the military to go to school (Such as I did). Also what fucktard does not know that when you sign up FOR THE ARMED FORCES you might have to go to combat? Why do you think they carry guns and train you to shoot them? Its all good while you collect a paycheck and the college money, but when you have to do what YOU SIGNED UP TO DO....And that you SWORE to do "Obey the lawful orders of the Officers above me, and the President of the United States"....Those kids can't say they didn't know....I knew. And I doubt I am that much smarter than them. The Capital Hill crowd not wanting to sign their sons off to go to combat....Would you send yours? And last I checked we have a Volunteer force and the KIDS would have to want to go. Why didn't the law makes READ the laws? Whose damn fault is that? Do you sign contracts before you sign them? Did only the Democrats have a problem reading the laws before they passed them? I will give him credit for the ice cream truck stunt...It was funny, but not effective. You have EVIDENCE that we knew he didn't have WMD's? Last year did you have PROOF he didn't? Again? Got Proof he didn't? Did you a year ago? Duh. Large companies that can actually handle the contracts? you mean those companies? Or would you rather give the contracts to companies that can't handle the scope of the contract and put US men and women in danger or more discomfort? Maybe you would rather give the contracts to countries like France who had buisness dealings selling military parts and technica equipment to Iraq against the Sanctions? And none of it has been PROVEN TRUE in the context that he spun it either. I guess you KNOW that the Justices gave Jr. the election just as payback to Daddy Bush like MM claims? Or that there was a large conspiracy to discount only Democratic voters? How about them Military Ballots Gore tried to throw out huh? Why was it that only Democrats had a problem using a punch to push through a piece of paper and were "confused"? It was at best an EDITORIAL...It was not a Documentry by any means....One that was timed to do the most damge to Bush as possible. But the unlearned, uncaring masses will let it effect their opinion. Would you support a movie made in the same fashion but with a Republican spin? It would be considered as "Big Buisness" being supported by Bush to slam Kerry....Just like his claims Cheney "gave" contracts to Halliburton. You know what it would take to contest those contracts? A letter....Why did no one send that letter? Its his right to make any movie he wants...But to claim this is anything but an Editorial to try and put Bush in a bad light filled with half truths or truths taken out of context is stupid. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK. Theres one. And unless I recall they didn't go out that day and try to find and kill an American to try and advance a cause. Can you say the same about Muslims? Desperation is no excuse for killing unarmed non-combatants because you don't like the way they worship. Its wrong. Do you not understand why the Us supports Israel over the Palistines? Simple english....Jews, even the most militant extremists, do go around saying "Death to America". Muslims extremists do. If I had to side with one of two sides....One likes me, and the other wants me dead.....Well, what would you do? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So you AGREE with it? Cause you sure look like you do from that piece. You agree with killing inocent people who are out shopping since they can't strike at a soldier? You attitude is THE REASON that there is war. You justify the suicide bombers positions instead of admitting it is wrong. Did Israel have a right to the land? I don't know. Thats for religious debate. I also don't care. They are there NOW and have been there for 50+ years, and I am not going to support a group of Islamic nutbags in killing Jews just cause they don't like them...And folks that is the real reason. I also would also not support the American Indians in a violent retaking of America. Itsnot about the land...The land is a slap in the face, and the proximity of the Jews there just really pisses them off, and makes it easy to attack. But the real reason is religion, not land. The US supports Israel since I can't think of once that Israel said they wanted the US destroyed. I also can't find one instance of Israel killing American citizens....I can find MANY statements including historical ones from before the occupation of Israel where followers of Islam have stated that the non-believers should be destroyed....And I can find several cases where Islamic extremists have killed others just because they were not Islamic. I know that that Christains have done the SAME thing....But not at a level and scope as Islamic extremists. And not in modern times. This IS WWIII....It is a case of a very large group (one that is growing everyday) that does not like the life they have and are willing to DIE to try and force their will on another. You can draw conclusions to the US in Iraq if you like..they are not totaly off to be honest. The difference is that the US went in for other reasons than to destroy a religion. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Quoteso i watch F 9/11. And yes, it's biased and skewed It doesn't matter, (edit) what he's trying to do is get people to think about (edit) Britney. To me, the people (edit) so vehemently hate (edit)Britney (edit). (edit) i don't get it (edit) to me that's weird. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And again, you don't answer the question.... Bill I see it plenty of times, you make snipes, and when called on it you don't answer, you ban the guy. I fully expect to get banned for pointing this out. Not exactly blanced for a greenie huh? Why do I bother to keep posting? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334