Ron

I still do...several times in fact while walking to the plane... But you will be surprised what happens when you get 100,200,500,1000 jumps...You get complacency that grows. And THAT is what kills you. Over confidence brought on by never having a problem before. Very few people think they are gonna die...But every year people do. Good for you!...Do you think you are going to keep that hard deck for the next 1,000 jumps? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Many jumpers will NOT jump without a CYPRES....I am not goingt o start that debate again, but you know how I feel about that. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Maybe, but most likley not. I LIVE on the DZ in Zhills...We question most people about the reserve rides they have. I have been to Chicago...My vidiot had a reserve ride and there was a truck to pick him up almost right after he landed. Perris has a truck and I have seen them waiting for a jumper to land under a reserve....It COULD happen if someone wanted to be sneaky...But most times I bet it will not happen....Hell most people get caught just to see if you can get beer out of them. I find them to have them tell me about it...Like I said It COULD happen...but I doubt it. Yep, but like I said very few reserve rides at Zhills or any good DZ I have been at do they get ignored. Well thats one way to deal with it...stupid as hell, but a way to deal with it. A DZ has the right to enforce any rule it seems fit to have. Chicago has a left turn to final in the main landing area right? Do they inforce it? Low pulls are not allowed right? Does the DZ enforce it? Any rule will have people who don't like them...But the DZ makes the rules and you play along or you can't jump there. Yeah, thats scary as hell...But since you know of them, I bet the S&TA knows about them as well. Also if you know about them it should be easy to see if they had *Another* one right? Yes, money talks and I have known DZO's to ignore not only other DZ's groundings but the S&TA at THAT DZ's groundings....But like you said, I would bet most would listen to a guy like BC. Do you honestly think it could be a BAD thing? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You think you are gonna die in this sport? No one does, but they still die. A low pull used to be fairly common. Hell, it used to be a sport. Yes, people died palying it...And it's stupid since the best you can do is tie the record But watch a few folks get grounded for doing something stupid...and you will work on not doing the same stupid stunt. Get grounded yourself and I can bet most will work like hell to never do it again. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not MY fault you are comming around to logical thinking "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

How many times have you seen a person land after a mal and not get asked about it? You might be able to get the rig to your car before anyone looked to see if the CYPRES fired....But I doubt it. Also Perris could make a simple rule that if you have a mal it has to be inspected at the DZ. You could take it anywhere to get packed, but the DZ could look at it. I doubt many of us have spare cutters in the car. I can see more DZ's following suit. And last I checked, if a DZO or S&TA calls another DZ saying they have grounded someone....Many DZ's will ground the jumper as well. I don't...I think it will put more focus on safety. And living to jump again is the #1 goal on every skydive "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No. Fear of being grounded for 30 days is a stupid reason not to have a CYPRES. What it WILL do is make people pay attention. Winsor wrote: You said: I think its a perfectly fair statement. People are continuing to jump due to the CYPRES being around that would have quit long ago....I am not sure that thats a good thing. I have seen MANY people who should not be skydiving. The number ONE thing in this sport is to survive...EVERYTHING else is SECOND. EVERYTHING. If you are to busy turning points or going for the "cool carve" to stay focused on the number ONE thing....Your priorities are fucked up. 30 days thinking about it is a SMALL price. I would call the other DZ...And if another DZ told me that they grounded a jumper...I'd ground them also....In any case if I ground them at my DZ at least they will not bounce there. I'd rather have a guy doing low pulls ON PURPOSE than a guy doing one on accident. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Shit happening can kill you. The only thing this sport is really about is surviving...Points turned, big formations, head down carves...ALL are second to landing safe. If you can't do the #1 thing do to another lesser thing....You need to rethink the situation. Funerals suck more. so ONE is OK? It is this attitude that has increased the number of CYPRES fires over the number of low pull deaths. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!! I agree 100% After a second time, you would not be allowed back. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Everytime I tuck mine away...I don't get them all in, and they slap me in the face on the ride down! I don't tend to fix it since I am normally low and am getting ready to land. Not dangerous, but kinda anoying "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Close, but no. They don't make money off of the products...A GOOD dealer will only sell products he thinks are good....But that in and of itself, is not fair and unbiased. I know great people who are great dealers that wil not sell certain products due to ONE case of a billing problem. So while a GOOD dealer is a great thing they are not totally unbiased. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So if I don't just accept what the reps say I am "unwilling to follow proper channels?" Hey, what do you think will happen if you ask Derrick Thomas whats the best rig? If you blindly listen to the people whos job it is to sell the device....you are not getting the facts. I know and trust Kim. I have known her for years. My resistance to the Vigil is NO different to ANY new device that could kill you if it malfunctions. Add in the fact that it has had problems and my doubt grows. Doubt that? Check my posts on CYPRES2 or the Neptune when it first came out. I have been around long enough to see a parade of "Great Inventions" fade away or flat out become dangerous. Feel free to get the information you use to make a choice about a device that could save or kill you from the people who are paid to sell the device....I think that is not the best source to use. Unfortunately we are not big enough of a market to have a "Consumer Reports" type of agency. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sorry to hear it...if you need me, you know how to reach me. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I was not there, but I was told it was a regular skysurf jump and he pulled a little low. It started a debate on if you should cut the board away during a mal....That debate really never ended to my knowledge (But I have never done a skysurf jump...nor do I really care to to be honest, so I didn't pay THAT close of attention). I would not call it "around the block" "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

His name was Chris Gauge and he was reported to have 2000 jumps. Loftis died at Quincy in 98 on a regular skysurf jump when he had a bag lock. You might be thinking about....man his name escapes me....He died filming a Mountain Dew comercial in like 95....Rob Harris. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Here is one...And it hints to the one with dead batteries, but I'll be damned if I can find it right now. Some others for you: Still all in all its better than not having one. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I think this person needs to learn to hook up a canopy "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

First question I ask is if they are OK. Second question is "That was fun huh?" Then I ask if they kept the handles. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Prepare to PLF. If you find that once your feet make contact that you have more horizontal speed than decent rate roll over to your side and slide it in like a downed motorcycle rider, or a baseball player. If you start to tumble, go with it while protecting your head and keep your arms in...don't try to stop the roll, let it dissapate on it's own. Trying to stop it is a sure way to break something. The problem with PLANNING to slide is that if your decent rate is high you will hit hard and get hurt. If you plan to PLF you can adopt a slide, but not the other way around. Make no mistake a proper slide is NOT an easy to pull off landing. You have to have a near zero decent rate to avoid injury. A proper PLF will work in either situation...However, I doubt many jumpers know how to perform a correct PLF.....I didn't learn it till I spent three weeks at Uncle Sam's jump school. Keep your hands and arms tight, head down and protected. Talk with your instructor...Or a graduate of the Ft. Benning jump school....Better yet find an Instructor that has military jump wings. And have them teach you a proper PLF. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not true...Add "MAINTAINED correctly" and I think you are right. But I know of two cases where a CYPRES didn't work when both speed and altitude were met. Both were not maintained correctly. A modern AAD is a good device to ADD to your already current and diligent training. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No problem....I still respect you. True, but I do know how they are being to PROSPECTIVE customers. You guys in marketing are doing great. Vigil ads are everywhere, and the system seems to be everywhere also. My questions have always been about the safety. Higher up in this very thread I said "It looks solid and well built, and seems to be easy to use". http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1296590#1296590 Here is me saying somehting bad about the CYPRES Here is one of me saying the SAME thing about a CYPRES 2 that I said about the Vigil Heres a post of me lighting into Airtec Heres one where I tell folks not to run out and buy a Neptune. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=644433#644433 The Neptune I now recomend...most of its issues have been resolved. Trust me, I don't have any love for CYPRES (Just ask anyone what I think about AAD's in general) Also if Vigil contiunes it's recent good track when my CYPRES dies I will most likely look at it. I WANT there to be competiton, I WANT a choice. The Vigil has many good parts to it...It seems to have most of its problems fixed. But for me only time will tell if the problems are fixed...For you, me, the skydivers who have one, the skydivers that want one...I hope it proves to be better than the CYPRES2. I know you believe in the product...and that says a lot to me about the product. But with ANY new product I am wary... For your info the Vigil is starting to seem safer to me. Yep, that would suck..Like I said Kim, I trust you. But, you don't run the company. Have fun and be safe.... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I know....I just used you as a step to another joke with a historical reference. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sorry not an original idea. Skydiving mag (I think) had an Ad years ago. It was for an automatic packing aid...Named something like: Computerized, Hightech, On-site, Packing, Instrument, Technology.......AKA......Ready for it???? CHOP IT. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

They had addressed every issue I knew of in a expediant and comprehensive manner. That I feel is an error in your thought process. If Ihad unanswered questions, I would not trust the product....You of course are free do do as you please. However, people trusted the NOVA when there were some doubts. Some of them died. No, it is my opinion that the DID ignore the issues till they could not hide from them anymore. I think they ARE resolving the problem now...My issue is that it took so long for them to admit a problem...And in some cases such as the in-air fire at DeLand they didn't find a problem...That is more scary than finding a problem to me. Also, saying an AAD is safe to jump till repared/replaced when there was some doubt I think was a bad call. Fact: They had a problem and said they didn't till there were so many instances that they had to admit a problem. Fact: They admitted an issue, and proposed a solution. However, they said they were save to jump till the units were fixed...all the time with an in-air fire that they could not explain. If I had a product that could kill you if it miss-fired, and it did miss-fire and I KNEW there was a problem. I would not tell you it was safe till you could get them fixed. I would have grounded them, and been much more vocal about the issue (such as RWS and the skyhook issue. They handled that issue with class). I would not attack people who have questions about the product. You outline and question my agenda all the time. Why do you think I question the safety of Vigils? I am not sponsored by Airtec, I don't sell skydiving equipment...what is MY reason for questioning the safety of a device that has had problems? So if you look and see what my agenda is...You might understand why I do what I do. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So Kim...Whats more dangerous? A problem you know what it is, or a problem you have no idea what the problem was? No offense, but I was at the Nationals and left right after 4 way was done. Also, while I really do trust you personally, I have some doubts about your company. YOU have nothing to do with your companies practices. Again, I don't tend to listen to sales people. I have seen the unit and it physically did impress me. It looks solid and well built, and seems to be easy to use. My problems with the unit are things that can not be seen at a trade show booth. My questions about the practices of the company you work for are historical, and while I do think that they are trying to fix things. I feel that they released a product early, and didn't react fast enough to the problem when it surfaced. So talking to you, while always nice, would not have answered my questions. I have said on here many times that only time will tell the reliability of this device as time has shown the safety of other skydiving inventions. People used to think the CYPRES was a death trap and the NOVA was safe. Time has shown otherwise. This: and then: So you DO have some feelings about our exchanges. Notice I have never attacked you, I have respect for you...But you just did attack me. Showing you have no respect for me. So why should I or anyone take your word for it? Yes, you know more about the product that I do, but it is also your job to sell it. If it were not for the fact that I trust, and respect you personally...I would not even bother responding to you. Its a shame you felt like you needed to attack me. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334