Ron

The rule is in force....The judges don't ignore it. Contact between sub groups is OK.....As I think Allison wrote so well (RoseAy). The problem with some cases such as compbox or danish T- murphy is that at some point you HAVE TO SHOW SEPERATION. Once you show seperation you can touch the other group....If you never show seperation it is a bust due to not showing seperation. Was that clear? Yes I am a competitor and a judge. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Like I said I like the approach...But what if it is at a large DZ that does not do SL? Gonna make them do a tandem? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Skydive U is a training program...There are Skydive U coaches at several DZ's across the US an in many parts of the world. The Main campus is in DeLand. FL. SDU has a variety of different programs... You can see more at http://www.skydiveu.com/ The best thing you can do other than jump is to visualize making jumps. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Did I call you reckless? Nope. I asked if you were in the group I spoke about...The group in this case is the group that does not see a CYPRES fire as a big deal. You may have READ something else that was not there. Good for you. Maybe you don't know the other cultures, or other times...It's hard for me to understand life before everyone had a car...But for my Dad it's much easier, and for my Grandfather its simple. Maybe you can't fathom life, and the way of thinking back then, pre-safe AAD? Its not saying you are unsafe...just that you don't know. Did physics change? Did the Stiletto suddenly become safer than it was 10 years ago? EDUCATION may have gotten better...But we have known since day one that hitting the ground was bad....That has NEVER changed. You see the ATTITUDE to the Stiletto changed...Not the Stiletto. Just as the attitude to a CYPRES fire has changed. And using your example a new skydiver does not know the danger that a Stiletto was/is since it seems so much less high performance than a Velocity. And sometimes people die. You would rather they die...I'd rather they listen. Eiter way I can't just do nothing and wait for the next person to get burned/burn in. And what do *they* think about CYPRES fires? Seems to me that BC thinks there is a problem, and he is one guy I really trust. Never said it was OK..But at least they KNEW they were going low. A person who loses track of altitude has no clue they are close. I also bet they were yelled at or grounded. As they should have been.... You can only tie going for the low pull contest record. Again only from your frame of referance. And your frame of referance is post AAD, and from Chicago a very progressive DZ. Again I ask...What was Rogers view of a person who was saved by an AAD? What did he do? Actually I normally did the dumb thing BEFORE they yelled at me for doing it....AFTER they yelled at me I tended to stop doing the dumb thing that got me yelled at....In one case due to them threatening to kick my ass if I did it again. (Low pull at around 400 jumps...ya know back when I thought I knew everything). I love how you petty much ignored the fact that people HAVE accepted things as normal that were not normal before. Both in the real world...I doubt saying "Water Closet" will get you censored today, and no one would jump a canopy that mals every 100 jumps. 27 is less than 60+ and 5 years is less than 11. Plus you were not around when AAD's were considered death traps. Good for you...Do you think EVERYONE has that same attitude as you did? I didn't. Difference was I thought an AAD would kill me, not save me. Who knows more about the things an alcoholic will go through....A guy that was never an alcoholic, or the guy that was and recovered? If you never were dangerous...Good for you and you do serve as a good example...Bravo!!!! But to think you "know" the other side of the coin is foolish at best. Again, Bravo!!! Some learn the lesson later, others bounce before they learn the lesson. And most people don't equate a CYPRES fire to an almost bounce anymore since they think the CYPRES will always be there. That attitude is new. And I think that attitude is bad. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It is a shame that the USPA will not listen to those that they make rules for huh? Tells me something about a defuct organization. Hey buddy...I was there You don't know me very well ....do you? I'd rather fight something I don't agree with than just accept it and do nothing. I may have to live with it, but I don't have to like it BTW it does not really matter to me since I have never even competed in Advanced. It just seems unfair that a person with money can bring a Pro (or more) to a High School game. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I like your approach.... I love this line: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have been to over 60 DZ's in the US. How many have you been to? It could be that your DZ is better than others...Or it could be that you just don't know all about your DZ. Its not the TRAINING....it is the attitude that comes later after they are no longer under supervision. Brian has said that he knows a jumper that keeps a spare cutter in his car. Maybe you just don't know enough people yet? I know a girl that I KNOW has had two fires...She treats it like no big deal...I have been told she has had three. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well maybe because you are in the group I speak about? I do have 7 years more in the sport than you. That gives me the knowledge of what skydivers acted like prior to the CYPRES being popular. Low pulls were more common, but they were also more *intentional* low pulls. Now for the sake of safety, they were pretty stupid back then as they are today. However, I would rather have a guy pulling low on purpose than losing track of altitude and pulling low on accident. The guy that is humming it KNOWS he is low. Having been around before the CYPRES was popular, and right after the "It's a death trap" phase. (The thought of an AAD firing on a "normal" low pull was seen as dangerous). Anyone that had an unintentional low pull due to losing track of altitude was yelled at quite a lot by his fellow jumpers. Today it seems nothing by comparison. It is also very acurate. 40 years ago "Water Closet" was not allowed on TV (First case of a censored word on National TV...Happend on the Tonight Show, pre Carson). Today you can say all kinds of words that then you could not say. EDIT to add: it was Jack Paar February 11, 1960, when Paar walked off the stage in protest over NBC's censorship of one of his jokes from the night before. Look at Music. Yesturday I heard a rapper rap that one of the women he was sleeping with was having his baby. Another rapper speaking as his mind said he was going to punch her in the stomach and abort the baby.....That is a far cry from seperate beds on the Dick Van Dike show. And they were right. I did dumb things, and for the most part they kept me in line. I never thought they were being jerks. I knew they were looking out for my best interests...Even if I didn't like the lesson or the approach to the lesson. They were right, and I was wrong...It took years to realize that fully. My perspective has changed...And the situation is still the same. New jumpers are not taking the sport as serious as they need to. And their perspective will change once they almost get killed, see someone get killed, or lose enough friends. Yep, as equipment gets better people start taking advantage of the fact that it will work. I bet that I don't drill my emergency procedures as much as a guy that use to jump shot and a half capewells. My main has only mal'ed 6 times in almost 3400 jumps...I remember being told about equipment that mal'ed about once every 100 jumps. As AAD's save more people...People will rely on them more. Same game, different device. More people have audibles than before...More people depend on them than before. And yet even with visuals and audibles we STILL have people lose track of altitude.... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

All that and you skip the fact that some peoples attitudes are just accepting of AAD fires. So according to your list of issues the only fixes are: 1. Don't jump a CYPRES 2. Don't jump slow opening canopies. 3. Don't do freefly. Where if you take the line of thinking I have you can do all three AS LONG AS YOU USE YOUR HEAD. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

True and I said as much. Not true. All you have to do to find out how complacent the sport has become is listen to people whine about getting grounded for a fire, or listen to people who refuse to jump without an AAD. Having the numbers of total jumps made with/without an AAD and the total number of fires/bounces would give you valuble info...(info you will NEVER get). But to find out the complacency the sport has become all you need to do is listen and watch. The number of AAD fires is much higher than the amount of low pull deaths. That could be attributed to the hugher number of jumps made by a larger group of people. However, to determine the *attitude* of those jumpers. all you have to do is watch and listen. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I agree.... Whats your take on if it happens to a solo jumper? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Heres a news flash...you don't agree with me... And it was taken as a big deal...big enough of a deal that airtect did a bunch of testing. Todays new jumpers don't see the fires as a big deal. Back then we did. It was at first seen as a misfire of a dangerous device, then later as a save for an act of stupidity. Now its "just a fire". They got grounded back then as well where I jumped. Then why so many more fires? And why the attitude of some on here that a grounding is to "harsh"? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

David, Most people consider a PC to be a person who has medaled in a higher class. My only reall issue with the PC teams being in a lower class is that the USPA forces a team to move up, but will allow a higher medalist to move down? That makes no sense. You, Ian and Kyle (all 20+ avg skydivers) could grab me and go advanced, but I could not go advanced with Niklas and Carlos (Who's best avg is a 14.9). How does that make any sense? I agree that a PC team has many great benefits. But it seems unfair to allow top notch competitiors to compete in lower divisions. You don't see NBA pro players playing in college basketball games. If you have stood on an OPEN class podium, you are clearly above any lower division. Add in the fact that regular weekend guys that win that class have to move up and I see a disparity. A PC team will have the same benefits if that team competed in Open as they would get in Advanced...Except that they would not get a chance at a medal. And I disagree that one guy will not make a difference. I was at an FSL meet last year. A team had a person get hurt and Kurt asked me to fill in. This team had been doing a 9 avg all year. This meet they did an 11 avg and they claimed to have the best meet of their lives. The next meet with the regular back in place...a 9 average again. I have aslo done tunnel and jumps with members of Majic filling in when we lost Glenn...They were some of the best jumps we had had that year. If one guy does not make a difference...Then why do people hire PC's? So to make thinsg fair USPA has to do one of two things: 1. Make it so PC teams compete in Open only...Thereby allowing a person to hire as many Pro's as they can afford. They will still get the benefit of the great coaching and skill building, they will get to do the same draw as the Advanced class for bragging rights, but they could not medal, unless the beat the other PRO teams. 2. Get rid of the move up rule. It is just silly to make people who have won a class move up, while you allow Pro's to move down. Just my thoughts. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I might chance it to *most*, but not *some*. Not to start the old debate, but you know how I feel about people buying toys instead of training more. And there are more new jumpers, more jumps being made, more slower opening canopies...ect. But the collective ATTITUDE has also changed. When the CYPRES first came out and you had a CYPRES fire we all considered it a big deal and that you really fucked up. Today that attitude is different. The old guys still have the same attaitude as before, so it's the new folks that are not thinking it is a big deal. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I agree with you 100%...But have you seen even on just this thread how some people don't consider a CYPRES fire a big deal? That is wrong. But many of todays jumpers don't think its a big deal. And when older jmpers say something we are considered to be unreasonable,a nd unflexable. Simple fact, I have seen more Cypres fires in the last few years than I ever saw in the first 5 that the device was around and the total of CYPRES fires are higher than no/low pull fatalities. New skydivers don't seem to think of a CYPRES save as a big deal. That needs to change. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If it does nothing else it will prevent them from bouncing on your land. Also it will show to others that you are seroius about safety and they might not need the CYPRES fire to shape up.... People, a CYPRES fire IS a big deal. Even if it was "just" a low pull. A low pull in itself is a groundable offense. An AFF level 6 would in no way impart anything to a guy with over 100 jumps...Hell, I don't think it would teach anything to a guy that has 20 jumps. We all know we need to pull before impact, we all know that an altimeter is useful in keeping from impacting....None of this is information that gets old, or that people forget. Most people who have a CYPRES fire are so busy in a skydive that they lose track of altitude. An AFF level 6 is NOT going to do anything but make a guy more pissed at having to spend 150 bucks to do a jump that will serve no purpose. I am willing to bet you could do all the TLO's of an AFF 6 jump in 4 thousand feet...So that will not really tax you, and you will not learn a lesson. So all you want to do is punish them with a fine, and not time off. I can't MAKE anyone learn a lesson. I can however provide them the environment they need to learn it. In my little world I would have a book filled with pictures of bounces. If you did something as stupid as a CYPRES fire I would march you into my office and make you look through that book. I would also include letters from the friends and family of the guys in the pictures. You would go home for 30 days with copies of those letters. One thing that you will notice is that those of us that have seen a bounce....Don't tend to think the same way as you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And 1200 feet is 800 feet lower than the most experienced person is allowed to open accodring to the USPA. So while a CYPRES MAY fire at 1200 feet...You are already way to low, and only 8 seconds from killing yourself. And how many times have you been told by a jumper that had a CYPREs fire "I was just getting ready to pull my (insert favorite handle here), when it fired."? I would say most cases where a Cypres fires it was just a low main pull and the person might have been fine.....But still, they pulled low and without a good reason. They were breaking the rules and put their life in greater danger than it needed to be. A grounding is such a small penalty for an act that could easily kill. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Hey Oren, To answer that question from my point of view, please answer this question for me: Did the Instructor lose altitude awareness? If Yes, ground them. If No, talk to them about the 2 grand "save yourself, I'd rather have one crater on the DZ than two" hard deck. There are times when low pulls are not a bad thing....And that is where DZO's and S&TA's need to use common sense. Just my thoughts. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

30 days to think about the fact you are dead except for Airtec INC. will do wonders to your mindset. It would work on me..and I am about as "A Type" as you ever want to meet. How would that help? A dive where they look at their altimeter? Thats an AFF jump. And most people will not just lose track of altitude on a regular jump...They will lose track of altitude due to trying "to get that carve", or "that last point"....30 days to think about how close you came to becoming part of the "crater tour" is nothing. The scary thing? Some on here are saying "Thats why I have two audibles".....So trading dependence of one device for another.... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Dude, have you BEEN on rollerblades? Thats some dangerous shit.... Other than that, I agree. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Give a person time to stop and think about the fact they about died in a sport due for a stupid mistake. Do you really think I need to remind you that you need to pull before impact? Anyone that does not understand that simple fact should not be jumping. A coach jump is to teach RW skills...Not altitude awareness, that would require an AFF jump....And I think we can all agree an AFF jump might be a bit much in this case. I have no problem with sending a person home for 30 days and give them time to think about the fact that they about checked out of this world. If fact, I think it would be a great idea for them to HAVE to tell their family about it, and spend those 30 days thinking about what a crater with their name on it would affect the ones they love. Quote "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That because (no insult intended) you don't jump much. I you realy jumped alot it would kill you to be grounded for 30 days. Same concept as a "timeout" or making a kid stand in a corner. They want to do something, and you don't let them. They then in turn try like hell not to do it again. Works for some DUI's. The BEST grounding I ever heard was a 30 day grounding where the guy had to show up at the DZ EVERYDAY for the 30 days but could not jump...For every day he didn't show up....It extended his grounding. Currency brings complacency...so it might just work. People who jump once a mth don't tend to get over confident. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

other than what another poster said..."learn to pack" This is one of the more original ideas I have heard of.... dare you to actually do it!!! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

PLEASE email me when you get 100 jumps...And then when you get 1,000. Im not calling you a liar...Well not yet I was NEVER gonna pull low or do hook turns either... You will be amazed what you will do in the comming years. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If you are under a streamer that goes so low that your CYPRES fires....Its a malfunction. Remember the hard deck according to the USPA is 1800 feet. A CYPRES does not start it's countdown till 1500 feet and I have yet to see one fire above 1100-1200 feet even in a low pull situation. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334