Ron

I think if you are gonna allow same sex marriages, then you must also allow other types of non-traditional marriages. Morals: Rules or habits of conduct, especially of sexual conduct, with reference to standards of right and wrong. It depends on what your definition of morals are I guess. Most consider the anicient Romans to be morally defunct with their orgys, man-boy sex...ect. Some people think sex is never OK, others think sex with a minor is OK. Some think sex with partners of the same sex is OK, some think only missionary position is OK, and some think sex before being married is wrong. There is a sliding scale from no sex ever to anything goes. I think the government approving a step towards the "anything goes" side is a clear decline of morality in the US as a whole. Now depending on your morals, you can see that step as good (People have rights), or bad (moving towards immorality). I think its both to be honest. I have said several times that I think same sex unions should be allowed. (Most seem to ignore that). But I also think it is a clear step towards immorality as a whole. My major contention has always been that its not religious, so it should not be called a marriage. (They would get SO much more done if they don't fight that battle right now). And most of my posts in this thread have been about religion and the hypocrits that claim to be gay and in line with Christs teachings (which is frankly impossible). Being that I am neither religous nor gay...this has just been a way for me to kill time before I go coach in the tunnel all weekend. It has also provided me the opportunity to study the Bible some. (Not that it really matters since I think its just an OK book, but I love knowing passages that take the piss out of people trying to witness to me....I for one learned Romans 7:19 which I'm still a little confused about...I mean we know we all sin, but if you continue to sin and you know it....How can that be OK?) Anywhoo, its just my opinion and as some love to tell me they don't give a shit about my opinion. And as I have said before I don't care much...except as a way to learn and discuss...Oh and waste a day. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So to recap: If you can't answer a question with any real argument you will just take your ball and go home? OK. But you seem to be OK with AGE discrimination. Never claimed it would. I DID say that it will be forcing others to accept your version of what is OK. Hell as long as I am allowed to marry 4 or 5 hot chicks Im OK...Are you gonna support my right to have many wives if that vote comes along? If so then maybe YOU are OK with everything being equal (Except age). Thats your opinion....I think by then we will be consumed with some other issue. Anyway, it was not a bad way to spend a day. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Oh so you are enlightend and I am not...I guess since the newer things are good that you support the Patriot act since it is shinny and new? Just cause its new does not make it good or right. Yes you are. If a religious man pays for his employees spouses health care and you make same sex marriages legal you are in fact forcing him. But you claim that is OK since your stance is "Enlightened" So your brand of goose stepping and forcing people is OK. The rest of us don't have that right....I can't marry a man and neither can you. How do you feel about people having several wives? I mean what possible problem could you have with that? I doubt that. Yes, some of the mistakes this country has made in the past is allowing the moral fiber of this country to go to shit. Make no mistake, I think gays will be allowed to marry. I also think that it will be yet another step towards the inevitable immorality of our nation. But its OK for you "enlightend folks" to force your beliefs down onto others "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Why would you prevent someone from being happy and not let them marry a donkey? I did read it, you ignored the question. Why would you prevent two people from being happy just because one is young? In some countries their in no age limit...why would you encourage discrimination and prevent people from being happy here in the US? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Allowing a woman to marry a donkey does NOT give the donkey the same rights as a human. Gays already have rights as individuals....We are talking about rights as a couple. How about age? The law currently says that a 20 year old can't marry a 13 year old...Is that NOT discrimination? So you are OK with everything marrying anything as long as it is a certain age? Why the age? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No if he wanted to be legally wed to bubbles the chimp. Right now same sex marriages are illegal. You want to change that...Therfore you want to make them legal. Same thing, don't try and play word games. No, I would say "What right do you have to not allow someone to be happy, what harm would it do you to allow people to marry animals?" Again word games...Then by that token no one is NOT allowed to be married and there is not reason to debate anything. And they do...As long as it fits the LEGAL definition. How about multiple wives, or marrying a sibling? Why should THAT be illegal, but not this? If you force the Government to allow it, then you force all of us to accept it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Fair enough ignore the bible, but don't claim to pay attention to it but ignore the parts you don't like. (not directed at you) Do you have proof of that? If you got it from the bible, then why pay attention to that part and ignore the part about killing homosexuals? Simple fact is if you REALLY believe in equal rights and allowing same sex folsk to marry. then you must ALSO support brothers and sisters to get married, Children must be allowed to marry their parents, People must be allowed to have as many spouses as they want, Adults must be allowed to marry children....Hell, people should be allowed to marry gold fish... For if your only reason is to make people happy, Michael Jackson will only be happy if allowed to marry Bubbles the chimp...what right do you have to prevent him from being happy? See the slippery slope? You say "well not kids, or animals. And people need to be a certain age, and marrying a relative is just wrong". But what makes YOUR definition the right one and not theirs? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Only partly It is evidenced right here: Why a person marry their sibling? Or Mother? I can find religious quotes why, but ignoring that, why can't Oedipus marry his Mom? They are both people. Why can't 13 year olds marry? They used to all the time. If two people ( and I still say why not more?) want to marry and they both want to, why should it matter if they are siblings, parents, or young? See, if you want to change the definintion to fit your goals, someone will want to change it to fit THEIRS...And what right would you have to deny them happiness and their definition? So if you want to allow men to marry men, and claim its for their rights...then you have to allow siblings to marry and children to marry their parents, and anyone to mary anyone reguardles of age, and my favorite many people to marry many other people. Otherwise you are denying others the rights you claim to be fighting for. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep and they have said it is between a MAN AND A WOMAN. You lose "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It did not change the Bible. It might have changed the religion, but that is one reason why I think religion is BS. Those who think that the King James is THE Bible are fools. It does not make it right, in fact it just puts the religion even farther from the source and the word. The persons right to not recognize a marriage that is against their religion. But you are ok with goose stepping all over some rights. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Why not three people? If you are going to create or change the definition, why not have it possible to marry several people as long as it makes them happy? And there IS a religious precident. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Tony Hathaway Tonyhathaway on here and www.tonyhathaway.com does it. It looks stupid, but he claims it works....Also he has like 12000 jumps, so he might have an idea of what works and what does not. The theory is good. Rhem, you cut it long ways in half, like opening french bread to make a 'samich. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OT dead sea scrolls. NT writtings from those who were there. Of course I think they are both BS. But I don't claim to live my life by them either. Don't know, but then I don't claim to live my life by the values in those books. Agin I don't claim to live my life by those standards. He could not make a change to the Bible, he could just like King James did have a version written that said what he wanted int he language he wanted....But that does not change the Bible. Who do you think has a better recollection of events a guy 150 years later, or someone 2,000 years later? Also you are claiming that its OK to modify the bible not based on fact, but public opinion. Thats a crappy way to run a religion. Agin, I claim the bible is a self help book used to control the masses....However I don't claim to live my life according to it, but at the same time do the opposite of what it says...Thats hipocrisy. Also, because you can't and you know it. Sure it does. You just feel its ok to step on some peoples rights as long as you agree. See thats just proof you have not bothered to look at any other side. Instead you just call the other side names. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What if he wants it to be legal? And there is a vote on it...Which way would you vote? By allowing them to be married you are in fact forcing those who do not recognize that union to recognize it...you ARE wanting to force your views on others. Not that that is bad, but at least be honest about it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK, but if MJ wants to marry "bubbles the chimp" if it makes him happy then he should be allowed right? I mean, it does not effect you in the slightest right? Where is the line drawn? I'm all for people doing as they please as long as they don't step on someone elses rights. You want to force people to do things the way you want. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then if that church does not follow the teaching of Christ, then they are not Christian no matter how loud they yell they are. Just because it changed to become popular, does not make it true to the word....In fact they are moving farther away from the word. The Bible is quite clear that homosexuality is a sin. Therfore no amount of anything will allow a practicing homosexual to be a "Christian". Its just not possible. There was also a "Getto Version" that was quite funny. But any version that changes the word is wrong. If I write a Bible that says on the Sabith you should "Fly from the sky under bright covers and rejoce in the freedom of the lord"...While several here would LOVE it...Its not true, it is not the word of God. Simple really, you can't live against the Bible (and you or Bill have yet to provide ONE verse that says homosexuality is OK) and claim to believe and claim to follow the Bible. What does thes have to do with marriage? 1. Marriage is religious. 2. You claim that people are free to love who they want...OK. But that would mean I should be free to not recognize a union if I don't choose to...However the law has said that I pretty much have to recognize a marriage even if I don't agree with it. So by forcing me to accept a union that is not one my background agrees with...You are forcing onto me YOUR beliefs. So who is right? You will claim that I have to get over it. I claim that its not recognized so you need to get over it. Both have the right to think they way they choose...And as long as gays want the right, they will have to be recognized by the Government...And right now that is not happening in the US. Someday it will. But while you only respect one side of the coin, I very much doubt you have even looked at the other side. I have said I support civil unions...you have not even looked at the other side. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If true, then why are gays trying to push to be "legal"? I mean if only matters to them and all. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK, but as a small business owner does he have the right to not pay for a spouse's health care that he does not approve of the union? Answer, No. If a guy has a company and he thinks interracial marriages are wrong...If he has an employee that is married to someone of another race he has only two choices, Pay for the spouse, or stop paying for ALL spouses. Same whith gay marriage. So, even if he does not care what two people do alone in the back room...He still has a dog in this fight. Ditto on the feelings...But I think you assume I am opposed to it. To be honest I just can't be bothered to care, unless they make me choose. The only reason I am here is because its fun to talk about stuff. I don't protest "gay day" in Orlando. I don't ram my car into cars that have gay pride stickers....Hell I have gay friends. I have stated several times int he past I don't have aproblem with "Civil Unions", but that its not a marriage cause marriage is religion. I have also said I think the Gov should stop giving breaks to married couples. I DO however see how if homosexual relationships become legal, that people will be forced to make hard choices. I'm not sure the other side can see that, or if they can see it they might be the ones who think companies should pay for everything anyway, or support federal medical care. But for a person who is involved in business I can see how people don't want to pay for benefits for a relationship they don't aprove of. Thats forcing a situation on them. Cause marriage is religion....The State should not bother getting involved. Also some on here mentioned gays are accepted by some religions...And I just love pointing out how they really can't be if the religion uses the Bible as a base. I'm in no way a good Christian...so I don't bother claiming to be one. I have said before I support gays to have the same rights, but its not a "marriage". To be honest I'm not sure about addoption, but the majority of the issues I agree that gays should have. I think property transfer, visitation in a hospital...Ect are all vaild and should be given....It's still not a marriage. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

They should not have used the PA here. But the train station is not a homeless shelter. It is not permissible to live there. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

He answered that. He does not support gay marriage and as a business owner if homosexual marriage is allowed he can either: 1. Be forced to give partner benefits to homosexual companies against his wishes. 2. Cut benefits to all spouses. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Jesus says that the only way to his Father is through him. The Bible lays out the "rules". If you don't want to follow the "rules" (And I don't) then don't try to change the rules and still claim to be following them. Yes, anyone can create a religion, and have it recognized. So I could create a religion based on worship of BillVon. We could call it BillVonian, and call ourselves BillVonians. Our rules could come from his posts here on DZ.com. Some of the basic tenants could be: 1. Paying attention to the environment and not trying to hurt it. 2. Being nice to people, and trying to promote equality. 3. Never believing Republicans. 4. Not trying to progress faster than your skills will allow. Our goal could be to become "Mods" or "green". And our punishment could be "Banned". So here we have this cool new religion. Now I could not be a member of that religion since I am a Republican....No matter how much I may claim to be a BillVonian, I could NOT be if I trusted Republicans and drove a Hummer while throwing Big Mac wrappers out the window while doing 100 MPH and trying to hit little old ladies as they cross the street. Call it what you want, but if my actions are against the tenants of the religion....I clearly am NOT that religion. I could create my own version of the religion where all those things are allowed.....But it does not mean I am any closer to "Mod" (You knew that was coming right?) according to the very tenants of the religion. In the same token you can't be something the Bible clearly speaks out against and still claim to be Christian. Some say "The Bible changes with time"...No it does not. The RELIGIONS change. Also the basic rules have not really changed. God says if you murder you have sinned....Well the NT says you can ask for forgiveness and still be saved. Well that does not mean you can still kill. You have to repent and not do it again. So for homosexuality you could HAVE been gay, repent and be saved, but you can't STILL be homosexual and claim to be a good Christian. Also some of the 'punishments' have been removed. The Bible still looks down on adultry, but they don't stone you for it anymore...That does not mean that adultry is now OK. So, any religion that panders to the popular culture CANNOT be true to the Bible. And since the Bible is the source of the 'word' then any religion that alters or ignores the 'word' is not really that religion. It may be recognized by a government, or it may be popular...But it is not true. For the record this is the major reason I am not religious....I hate it when people claim to be Christian then steal, sleep around...basicly do the very things the Bible says is wrong. I have gone out witnessing to people, then gone back gotten drunk and had sex with one of my youth group....While fun, its kinda hypocritical to claim to be doing gods work and then fucking in the church. Hypocrites. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It is when it is on a ballot. And the ones on the ballots have failed. Also when the activist judges do it, they have gotten over turned. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So is the Pope God? If not, I don't see how he can change WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. If the Bible says murdering your Father is bad. Then no amount of the Pope saying its OK is going to change that the BIBLE says its bad.. There fore if the Pope says its OK then the Church is no longer following the BIBLE, and threfore is not longer CHRISTIAN. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have seen it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Its not about jumps, its about being relaxed in freefall. After 3600 jumps, I can think about other things on most jumps. When I have to really concentrait on the task (AFF or 4way) then I don't have time to think anything else. But on a "fun" jump or a big way, thoughts can pop into my mind. Wait until you are relaxed enough you can fart in freefall "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334