Ron

Then YOU may be fine. But honestly, you are not the norm. You would be correct EXCEPT that while under student status an Instructor is watching you land. For AFF thats about 8, for SL thats 18ish. Thats 10 more landings under supervision AND 10 more plane rides, gear ups, exits...ect. Again it is an issue of number of times. With an AFF student they get 8 attempts, SL they get 18. Also it is easier to learn to spot starting low and going higher than starting at 9-10 grand. The system leads to the flaws. When everyone learned SL we didn't need "coaches", spotting "classes", or packing "classes". I taught tons of people to pack after they landed from a SL jump. Today since people want quick they go AFF and have packers pack the rig. This attitude leads to people who can't pack, spot, or exit low in an emergency. With 3900 jumps, SL and AFF I ratings you would think I would know a little about both programs and the faults of both. I don't hate AFF (I am rated and do teach), but it is clear that some do not know the weaknesses of the program and the strengths of SL. Both programs have strengths and weaknesses....You seem to only think one is strong and one weak, and that is just not true. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ah so you know huh? I have seen people say the same thing, then freeze in the door in a real emergency. What is your lowest exit to date, and how many? But 18 would give you 18, not 8. And since you went through AFF, what do you know of the SL program? You don't have to agree, or even understand. But just because you don't, does not mean you are correct. SL students tend to learn how to spot, where AFF students don't. Spotting is a life saving skill. SL students do more jumps under supervision, that means there are more opportunities to ask questions. SL students normally learn how to pack....I have known AFF grads that with 600+ jumps can't pack. SL students have more landings watched...Being that landings are the number one killer, more attention to canopy control is better. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And you don't agree that without sunglasses it would be even better? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And most found it quite funny. Same could be said of the antics of another team that got a judges award for 10 way antics. Nah, no more than nakid people running around a bonfire IMO. And I know some of the judges thought it was great. They went to the nats to have fun. I applaud them. So there is no place for the team that wants to have fun? If that is the case then only 5 or 6 teams need to bother showing up since they are the only ones that will win. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Or AFF if you have no clue about the programs and just want to desperately try to fit in and belong, or have no patience and demand it now even if it is not the best solution. SL if you know that surviving is more important than just trying to look cool. BTW, I'm only 34, not exactly "crusty". Care to fill out a profile so people know your experience? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then both programs should be no problem. The method will not matter much if you put some focus on the areas that each program lacks. I personally see way to many AFF grads that can't pack, spot, or exit low and these are important things that get missed and ignored. But I have seen very few grads of either method not work on freefall skills. IMO, most that bash SL had no clue about the program. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

With 11 jumps you can tell which makes a better skydiver? You know both programs well enough to know all the differences? Never a reason I have given. And as for extra cost, dropping a PRCP is MUCH less than paying for two instructors to jump with you. Not true at all. If I have a 45 second SL student and an AFF (Any level) and the clouds are at 5 grand. The SL student can do clear and pulls while the AFF student sits on the ground. Weather that will not let an SL student jump will not let an AFF student jump either. And I have seen AFF students quit since they never got past level 3 and got tired of paying for 3 slots and two jump masters to fail again. Which is STILL less than AFF. AND they got 30 jumps as opposed to 8. Thats 30 MORE jumps under supervision, 30 more exits, 30 more openings, 30 more canopy rides, 30 more landings, 30 more...well 30 more EVERYTHING! 30 vs 8....I'll take the 30 thanks. That is not always a GOOD thing. And its only 8 jumps as opposed to 17. You learn a ton about aircraft, canopies...ect in those extra jumps. Or you could just arch. I'll take a student that spent the extra time over a one weekend warrior anyday. Not everywhere. Not true at all. I can tell a student what he did as soon as he lands with a SL jump. Ah, last I checked you still needed to pass FS1 before you could work on any of those things...And here in the US you have to have a license to jump with anyone else and that means 25 jumps no matter what method you learned. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

AFF will teach you to jump in a hurry, for a price. But most cases AFF students lack some very important skills at the end of the program. Most don't know how to pack, spot, and are afraid of low exits that could save their life. This is not always the case, but it seems quite common. SL is slower and the focus is on survival, not good flying skills. One benefit of SL is that once on FF you cans till jump if you do not have 9500 feet. So you can stay current in climates that are not optimal. The big thing is that once off student status, people focus on RW skills, and not on spotting/packing/survial skills. So they often never get these skills. While someone with those skills WILL work on getting better at RW. Most people who say SL sucks, is dangerous...ect....Don't know shit about the program. It is a choice you have to make...But if you choose AFF, please work on the Spotting/Packing/and low exits that will save your life. BTW both a SL and an AFF Instructor...So I know a bit about each. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Being a SL AND an AFF Instructor I can tell you that you are wrong on almost all accounts. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep, especially so when I am using my arms to fly and my hands to take grips. Eyes are very expressive and and by looking in someones eyes you can tell a lot about what they are thinking. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Lets just say history was made. With three women on the team the team did round 10 topless.....NICE!!!!!!! And no, I don't have pictures or video....But I did see the show. And I very much doubt the USPA will even mention it, or release the footage. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK, so why not present awards at the end of each event? You have numbers to back statement up? Quick and dirty math...about 63 teams in 4way and most doing 8way would mean 31, 8 way teams. Omniskore shows only 14 8way teams. Give the teams the medals right after the last jump IMO. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yeah, I kinda fiqured that was the case.....Makes the ranking even harder. Not gonna tell others stories, But I expect they will do quite well. Fiqure two that did a 15.7, one that is an easy 20, and one that has won the Advanced class with Nemisis. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You only think that. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

All that applies to Fastrax as well. Really its almost too close to call. The DDT (DeLand Dream Team...No idea if that is the name, but it has been tossed around) complicates matters quite a bit. ASO The team with the most time together. I did tunnel with three of them and they said it was the first 4way stuff they had done all year. ASV Natasha should not really slow *anyone* down. But, both AS teams have not really been training 4way. Fastrax has only a year together, but lets face it the line up rocks and they don't want for funding. GK. Who knows? A birdy told me that the line up is not what I expected....When questioned, the birdy flew the coup. Almost unlimited resources and the ability to drag back some of the best skydivers on the planet. Fury/Gravity...Well the last SSL meet shows that these two are about as evenly matched as possible. Should be fun to watch them slug it out. Mass D has three years togther. And they have a good plan. 2004 they did a 12.8 with 10 points lost to video (13.8). 2005 a 15.4. This year they have only done one meet and turned in a 15.0 Fiasco with Billy Andrews (Fastrax) and Rodney Cruze (Nemisis) And Jim and Steve who were on Phugoid with me in 2005. Phugoid did a 15.7 with 5 lost to video, Billy can do a 20 on his head. Rodney is no slouch. AZ Thunder. Rumor has it they will not be showing. But that could change. I hope so since they did a good year and the Nats would be a nice cap on it. Synchronicity. 4 hot chicks (How YOU doin'? ) with some very good scores posted. Dallas Thunder. Mike Inabinet a WC in 8way, Ryan a guy from Vengence, Dave Burton from Spark/Inferno, and some other jackass that posts on here. The team has more 8way experience than 4way I see three battles. 1. ASO, ASV, FT, DDT, GK 2. Gravity, Fury. 3. Fiasco, MD, Synchronicity, AZ Thunder (if they make it), Dallas Thunder. All three are too close to call. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thats your problem right there. You had an issue and really do not understand WHY. Of course you are going to be afraid it might happen again, you have no clue why it happend in the first place! 1. Find out EXACTLY why you had the mal. 2. Spend some quality time with a rigger and learn about your rig. Bring beer. Fear is most often brought on by ignorance. Fix the ignorance and the fear dies. Learn about your gear and the fear will go away. Never had it. But I also had 600 jumps before my first chop and understood exactly WHY it mal'd. Cutaways are fun as long as you don't lose anything. Look at it this way, you had a problem and did the right thing. You should be happy. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Land on the DZ. Do not risk landing off to get a shot. Of course, do everything you can to prevent landing off. I pull high if the spot is long and tell the camera guy we are long. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You don't have to fly. There is very little risk that you could get a store to sell a bottle of water that is actually a fuel for a bomb. But it would be easy to carry it from home. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have had this very situation. A low timer would come to the DZ and already "know" what to do and actually debate me when I would tell him his info was wrong. I stopped trying to help him. Another friend of mine had to tell a student to quit asking on DZ.com and actually ask one of the DZ instructor's instead. So it does indeed happen. Two reasons. 1. DZ.com is open in the middle of the night on a Tuesday. I always tell my students I am there for them, but not at midnight on a Tuesday. 2. They are eager and want to learn more...They just want to talk skydiving and so they do it here. But I still think taking advice from here is not a good practice. A student should listen to their instructor before they listen to anyone else. low timers should have a mentor and bounce ideas of of them, but the mentor should trump internet advice. The experienced guy can tell the wheat from the chaff. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I feel the same way....Since you have spent some time on this, got any ideas? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Fair reasoning. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It does not matter. It varies around the country and from DZ to DZ. If you are looking for a suit call any of the makers and tell them what you want (I am partial to Michigan suits). They are the experts and know better than all of us. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Cops I would agree. I would say : Any World Event AZ Challenge Kaleidoscope But thats just my opinion. I base it on I have seen/heard little of the Perris event, but everyone seems to know Kaleidoscope. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

DeLand Magik spent a good deal of time loosing weight. Two schools of thought: 1. The more you weigh, the faster you fall and therefore the more power you have with less input required. 2. The less you weigh, the less power/input you need to start and stop movement. But the more input you can put in with less effort. Now I don't know, but playing around I have strapped 12 pounds on and did some tunnel. I had TONS of power, but I NEEDED it to start and stop a turn. My side slides required a ton of input to stop. I took the weight off and I felt faster and able to put more input in since I was not fighting the drag to do anything. I was also less worn out. In reality I bet my moves were close to the same speed...I just felt more momentum (and more momentum that needed to be stopped) with the 12 extra pounds, and since then have worked to not add lead unless I need it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well...Thanks. I think you misunderstood me. I don't just take people if I get paid extra. From up thread "So then the choice becomes up to the individual instructor. I have never gotten paid for a bigger passenger and I have taken some big folks. I am just not opposed to the TI who works harder and takes the bigger risks getting compensated for it." I have never made money off of taking a bigger passenger. I have refused to jump with certain people do to my belief that it was unsafe for them, or for me. But I do have the luxury of not needing the paycheck. Some notable students I refused to take: 1. An underage Tandem Student. It was when the FAA dropped the 18 rule, but the Tandem makers had not yet said no yet. I just was unwilling to take the financial risk involved with an under 18 Tandem student. 2. A few really out of shape passengers. 3. A girl that spoke only Spanish. She had not been through any course and had no idea what to do. I could not speak to her to teach her, so I found a TI that spoke Spanish to teach and take her. Agreed, I would never take a dangerous student for money. Agreed, but I am not OPPOSED to letting others make that call for themselves. If a person wants to take additional wear and tear on their body for more money it is not any business of mine. It is also not my concern if a guy will take the extra risk for free. Again his or her choice. For me, I will jump what students I feel are safe for both of us and refuse to jump with anyone I do not think is safe. I hope all that made sense....Its 5:23AM and I just got off work. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334