Ron

OK, you have admitted to not being a TI. So honestly you have no idea the difference between a 150 pound student and a 200 pound student. Or for that matter a 200 vs. 220 pounder. There ARE differences. When a non jumper tells you skydiving is too dangerous, do you listen? Or do you think they do not understand the whole set of issues? Now, one bit of information you seem to be missing or overlooking is this....Just weight alone does not make a *STUDENTS* risk level go up. Their physical makeup means a lot, hell everything. I have taken guys that were 250 pounds. But they were football players. And I have rejected the 200 pound professional couch potato. However, the added weight does effect the *INSTRUCTORS* risk level, pretty much no matter what. Moving a 100 pound student to the door is easy, moving a 200 pound student is not as easy. The wear and tear on an instructor by having to work harder to get the 200+ pounders and the extra effort it takes IMO it is fair to compensate more. Now, before you reply, please do this. This weekend get a Tandem rig and two "students (not TI's)" One over 200 and one about 150. Take all of them to the plane and hook up from the back, and move them to the door. Let us know which you would rather do 10 times in a day. Walk the 15 feet in their rig and THEN give your opinion. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It can mess with a team. Landing off, and then expecting to land off can mess with a competitiors mind. Now the more experienced the competitior, the less it should affect them. When the DZ representative clearly states, and has it posted, to not bother asking for a go around...Well it seems the focus was on something other that the competitor IMO. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Don't know, didn't ask. To have fun. They didn't go to win, they just went to have fun. They were a great example of a fun team. Anyone around them got caught up in their fun. Heck they sold Jello shots to raise money. Gotta love hot chicks hocking jello. There is always room for jello. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I'll make you a deal. Tell me what you got from my sig line, and we can run a contest. There will have to be some rules, but I'm game. Really funny! I can hear the announcer guy's voice when I read it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You clearly don't understand the programs. SL is a means to an end, not an end. I learned SL and just got a medal at the US Nationals for FREEFALL. So your theory does not hold water. Well for one it is more jumps. Also it is more experience under canopy (Which is the number one killer right now). It may not count towards your license, but they are jumps that do count for experience. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have information from several independent sources that say otherwise. I'm sorry if you don't like what I am saying, but I have a few people I trust telling me the opposite of what you are telling me. Who are you anyway? No profile and no name....And only posting to this thread. So I have people I know and trust telling me one thing, and someone who I don't know and posts anonymously saying another....In my place, who would you trust? Now to complicate matters, I know Jacko a little and like the guy. From my limited experience with him he seems not the type....But I have been wrong before reference my ex-wife. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Or vote FOR them. Which is what I am going to do. Reckless activities involving passengers should not be allowed. 1. The instructor should have known better. 2. The S&TA's should have stopped it. As it was it required action from a higher body to stop these acts. It should have never gone that far. These people you are so quick to want to vote out have done MUCH more for the sport than *any* ONE instructor. And if the instructor had been following the rules of the tandem manufactorer, this would never have happend. If the S&T's had done thier job, nothing would have happend. (From what I have been told...If the Instructor had not basicly gone off on a few Directors when they told him to stop this would not have happend either.) There are three people to blame for this action...In order: 1. Jacko. 2. The two S&TA's 3. The BOD. I happen to think the AFF and membership is a bit much, but taking his Tandem rating seems right on. And, like I said before, if someone wants to float a petition to get his AFF and membership back, I'll be glad to sign it. Edit to add: I would have been much happier if the stunts had never been done, been stopped by the instructor or stopped by the S&TA's long before the BOD had to get involved. I don't care that some think this thread was the reason the BOD got involved (It was not), but I am glad that we all now know that this was a bad idea and we should not be doing it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Of course.... I just wanted to back you up and all. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The medals should be at the end of the event....If Freefly/CRW/Style/Surf want a bigger turn out, then maybe they should have more teams? It is not that they don't deserve respect, but is making the RW folks wait a week being respectful? 55 4way teams not including guests. 13 8way teams 21 TOTAL CRW teams 7 Freestyle teams 3 Surf teams 8 Freefly teams It is a shame that the RW folks had to take a week off and spend the extra time to collect their medals so that smaller events could have attendance for the awards. And let me tell you that when 8way people were collecting their medals most of the CRW/FF/Surf and Freestyle people were already gone. It was like a ghost town in the hanger by then. The other events didn't wait 15 mins but want the RW folks to wait a week? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

AFF...Fine, but I am not sure about Tandem. And that would keep me from signing any petition. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Why do you have to tempt me? Someone PM me his addy. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The only thing is that packing/spotting, ect is a part of both programs. And they are part of the question. Their is no doubt in my mind that AFF is better to teach *freefall*. But skydiving is more than just freefall, and in those areas are where the program has its major potential faults. Add in DZ culture (paying to learn to pack vs, making the students learn), student attitude (do they show up on weather days with beer, or do they stay at home and only show on good weather days then bitch they get no attention?) ALL play into which is the best program to select....And I think all should be considered. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And he may like it better, but is the meet for him, or the competitors? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yeah, waiting to the end for the awards was not a good call. It should say something when the team that won 4way was not there. I paid an extra 400-500 dollars to stick around to collect my medal, and one guy on our team had to leave. Awards should be after each event. One reason we were told that all the events were presented at the same time was that some events were upset that when their event medals were handed out that no one was there.....Well when I went to collect my medal the crowd was almost already gone. Some could not even wait 15 min, but they wanted to make others wait DAYS? Passes. 4 teams on one pass is asking for off landings. It is wise to put a team off just to get an extra load off? I would gladley have done 6 rounds instead of 7 to be able to land on the DZ and not have to collect my team after each round. Cost....anyone know why this event cost 100 bucks more than last year? The food was OK, but not worth 100 bucks more, and a good number of people left so thats extra money the DZ gets to stick in the bank. The biggest event was 4 way, but those that did only 4way had to stick around 5 days to eat the dinner they had to pay for? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, but you seem to be the only one making blanket assumptions. Our dream world exists. It is like that in many places....Maybe you need to find better people to hang out with. Of course attitude from the student goes a long way. For example, I just had a student I did a few AFF levels with ask if I could look at a rig he wants to buy. I told him sure....Why? Well he is a nice guy and does not have an ego, so I am willing to do more for a guy that is not an ass. Maybe if you filled out a profile, or told us YOUR experience we could have a discussion. But right now all we have is some no name making claims about things and insulting people claiming we don't understand. For all we know you could be a tandem student with an attitude that is pissed since no one was willing to help you....You *could* also be a guy with some experience and some good ideas. But right now who knows? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

For groups of students there is a guy on the ground. For the longer delays I am in freefall with the student and land first....Just like I do with AFF jumps. The way I see SL students get a deal with me, they get an AFF I for the cost of a SL jump. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Never said AFF was worse....Just didn't say it was blindly BETTER. Both programs have benefits and *both* have drawbacks. AFF is not a magic wonder program that some think it is. The big difference is that most SL programs focus on things that people will not work on on their own. (spotting, packing, low exits). Where almost all students will work on freefall skills once off student status. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes...Just like normal Density altitude should really not be a factor that you can feel. An airplane at 500 feet will *indicate* say 100 MPH and really be doing close to 100MPH. A plane at 10 grand will *indicate* 100MPH and might be doing 105. The plane (you) should not notice a real difference as far as I know in as little as 3 grand. More likely a few things are happening: 1. Meet pressure makes you try harder. 2. Aircraft exit speed is normally slower at DZ's than at the Nats. I can remember the first time I got real exit speed as indicated in ths Comp manual 5-1.12 (85-95 knots) I thought WOW thats easy to fly. It can make a big difference. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Why? In the states most full time Instructors prefer AFF as well. It might have something to do with when I JM SL students I get paid 5.00 bucks. And for every AFF student I get paid 32.00. Full Cessna load of SL's, I get paid 15.00 and get a hop n pop, and have three students to debrief. AFF I get paid twice as much and only have one student to debrief. Once the SL students are on long delays I jump out with them to watch. I still get paid 5 bucks for doing the same thing an AFF student pays me 32.00. There is much more money to be made in AFF. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Back when most DZ's taught SL only and few Instructors made a living skydiving "classes" were not needed. I used to teach my students how to pack when they landed from the jump. I would give them the debrief and then we would pack their rig for their next jump. At another club I taught at we taught the student to pack in the FJC. The student had 5 packs before they ever jumped, and they jumped their pack jobs. Today with the rushed pace of AFF and the need for Instructors to make money, they often don't bother to teach packing instead they have the packers teach the class while they jump with another paying customer. Nothing wrong with that plan, but many times the student never learns to pack and just starts dropping the rig off to get packed. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ouch...the truth hurts "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

In part, I would agree. However, I also think that the more jumps in a SL program is a benefit as well. Even though the Freefall instruction might not be as good, the canopy instruction is just as good and there is more of it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The problem is that most people will not admit they could be next. The dangerous ones think they are not dangerous, and will not listen anyway.They think they are faster, smarter, and way more skilled than those "fools" that hooked in. And when you try to explain that to them, they claim you don't know their mad skills. BillV had a good quote about how Jesus himself could tell them they are dangerous and they would claim he didn't know their skills. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes,,,er, No...Hell, I can't remember Ah, but then maybe you do not have the experience of lots of different DZ's and different programs at various DZ's. She is not asking about YOUR intstructors, she is asking about the programs *in general*. Your instructors seem to have done a good job on many of the topics that most AFF programs ignore. But just because your guys covered them, does not mean that they all do. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And do you think that the same could have happend under SL? What experience do you have of the SL program? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334