Ron

No. There is a big difference between a tunnel and a skydive....Namely death. I have seen DZO kids that rocked at the DZ. But I have seen kids that had no business in the air as well. It would depend on the student, but even then the costs are too high. I have not, nor will I take an underage student. I do not take Tandems under the age of 18 either, and have turned them down before. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Some do, others never get it. As long as they are not dangerous, I don't really care how good they become. For example, there was a student this weekend. She just could not do the back loops correctly. She pulled out too soon and ended up on her back. She fixed it and tried again and got the same result. She pulled on time and was fine under canopy. This was not my student, but the AFF I on the job did not pass her. She did not pass the required manuvers. Does that make her unsafe? Nope, in fact I prefer to see my students get unstable and fix it on their own. *I* would rather see a student get unstable and fix it than perform a perfect backloop. But this student did not perform at the level the AFF I wanted so she repeated the level. Does that make her a bad student or unsafe? OK, while being quick sure helps, not everyone is. So as long as the student is *safe* I don't care how good they are. As long as they have the right attitude they can keep jumping till *they* want to quit. Nope, but I have had "problem children" before. One girl started crying in the plane, then when I told her she did not have to jump and we can ride the plane down she cried more. Some people take to the sport like a duck to water....Other's like a duck to soup. But as long as they are not dangerous, they will never get the bowling speech from me. If I like it or not is not really important. I am trying to get you to understand that there is a big difference between not performing/passing, and not being safe. I know folks that will never win a medal nor be on a world record, but are safe and have fun. Thats all. Not everyone "gets it". But they should be allowed to try. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Is there a tunnel near you? If not, do the tunnel time. You can do coach jumps in a bunch of places, but to do tunnel you need to be near a tunnel. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I think the 7 years and AFF rating was a bit much. But he should lose his TI. BS. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Skydivers make a lot of decisions about gear based on looks or fun. Thats fine for personal gear, but not students. Then you may not be one of the people I am talking about. I can remember a TI talking about taking a student and swooping a pond. The student didn't care about swooping, only the TI. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The thing is when I was in the Army I carried more than guys that were smaller than me. I knew big guys that carried more than me. You don't give the M240 to the 100 pound guy if you want him to last on the march. There is a big difference between taking a big tandem guy vs taking a big AFF guy. And that is a great question. I don't think it is more dangerous to the *student*. So then the choice becomes up to the individual instructor. I have never gotten paid for a bigger passenger and I have taken some big folks. I am just not opposed to the TI who works harder and takes the bigger risks getting compensated for it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

From your other posts you seem to think that Jacko had enough skill to pull it off and that everyone that disagreed was wrong? So do you admit he was wrong? Or do you still stick to the "Jacko rules and you guys drool" defense? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Doesn't it suck when you bite yourself? Just goes to show that even people that *know* better can be coerced into doing something stupid. Thanks for sharing it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

who said it was due to his character? Some said he was asked and he ignored them....Have any info on that? What he was doing was not safe....The tandem maker agreed, the USPA agreed. Well call Ted Strong as not knowing what is safe with a tandem...And add Bill Booth, and several tandem Examiners. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Hey, you do not have to agree. But that does not mean you are right and everyone else is wrong. How big are you? I'm 5'6" and 160 pounds. Taking a 200 pounder is more work for me than a 100 pounder. Thats simple physics. And since I am smaller I often get the bigger students since we will not overload the gear. Yeah, I am in the risk business, and I know risk levels. It is risker to take a bigger person, sorry if you don't think thats right, but that does not mean you are not wrong. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

True, learning requires both the message to be sent and for it to be received and understood. An error on either the sender or the recipient could prevent learning from taking place, or just a different way of explaining is required. If I have a student that just does not seem to be getting it, I give them to another instructor with a different style, or maybe just different stories that the student might get. I take any failure by one of my students as a failure on MY part to teach in a way they understood. Of course just today in my "real life" teaching job I had a student that thought they already "knew" everything they needed to know and argued everything instead of learning anything. The proof was when the tests were turned in and they didn't pass....even then, I take it as a personal failure. So, either student or instructor could have failed there....Most likely, both. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Increased workload for the TI. I work harder with a 200 pound guy than I do with a 100 guy. I have to move them in the plane, sometimes carry them to the door...ect. And there is an increased risk of me getting hurt landing with a guy that is 200 pounds than a guy a 100 pounder. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Something I wanted to do. Saw the Golden Knights at an airshow, saw skydiving in a Bond flick, saw skydiving on a few TV shows, my Dad flew jumpers years ago....A bunch of things made me want to try it. But the thing is there is some exposure, people know it is there and to find it all they need to do is a google search, or pick up the yellow pages. Advertising can of course help, but the cost is pretty high and there are risks. Imagine living in "Wazzo" and putting up a Billboard for "Wazzo City Skydiving" and the guy goes home and googles Wazzo Skydiving and gets a skyride Ad. Then he spends his money and goes to a little Cessna DZ that is not yours. You spent the money, and they got the business. A real issue today. No size is not always death to a sport. The attitude we have can be death. Dependance on toys over training, lying to the customers that it is "safe" can lead to them not taking the risks seriously. And since the major reason most will never skydivne is the danger level....Well some DZ's have already started telling people it is safe. Problem is that a few people want to see skydiving as a dangerous stunt. They want to feel like they cheated death or some other live the moment mantra. Yes, but it is a one paragraph blurb as opposed to the page one "death story". Yes, but it would not sell. DZ life is really kinda boring. Sitting around in silly suits for hours to make a few jumps. Most whuffos hate being at the DZ. It would be great, but put on a skydiving film and people will stop to look....Then they will walk away since they just cannot relate. I think this is where we fail the most. Tandem is a great way to let someone see what skydiving is like, but we often drop the ball when trying to get the person to join our sick little cult. A bunch of DZ's do 30-40 tandems a DAY with amost none of them coming back to take the AFF course. We need to let these people into our world, but many times we just take their money, haul them like meat, and then push them aside for the next paycheck. I am all for getting more people to try the sport, not just the ride. But many times WE are our biggest problem. One idea that I liked was the Instructor would call the students during the week and touch base with them.....Very few DZ's do this, maybe because it does not work? I don't really know. But most students I deal with I make sure they know I am available to help them...And the next time I see them on the DZ, I walk up and say hi. Of course I don't do this for a living, so I don't have to get my next bag of meat jumped so I can pay my rent. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I agree, the problem is people don't pick gear for the worst case, they pick the gear to look cool or have fun. I don't normally care when it is an experienced jumper, but with a TANDEM?!?!?!!? Safety first always. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

WWW.yellowpages.com When I made the choice to jump I went to the real book yellow pages and found three DZ's listed and at the time I lived in the middle of nowhere. Advertising would work, but would it make good business sense? Does spending 1,000 to maybe make it back make good sense? Also, if there is more than one DZ in the area advertising works for your competitor also. I can't tell you the number of times I had a student show up that was looking for another DZ. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You seem to be the only one that missed it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Uh, so where do you call it? 10 jumps? 20? 30? As long as they are not dangerous and the instructor and student wants to keep going...Who are you or I to say they are crazy? Just because it took 60 jumps to pass all the required TASKS does not mean they were UNSAFE. They just could not peform all the tasks. So, were you the AFF instructor on those jumps? So you know that that person was *dangerous* exactly how? There is a guy that has posted he took 4 level 4's and 5 level 5's to pass....Should he have been stopped? He is now an AFF I and a 4way jumper. Another jumper on here took 48 jumps to get off student status, and she became a WORLD RECORD HOLDER. Would you consider her to have been a lost cause and her instructors "nuts". I know a World Champion RW guy that seemed like they were never gonna get off student status and another that cut away a perfectly good canopy by accident. Should these two WORLD CHAMPIONS have not been allowed to jump? So, how many tries, in your opinion, should a person get before we ground them forever? And how many student jumps did you make as a Student, and how many Students have you trained? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

We have an hour on Friday if anyone wants to share. PM for details. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Why do I get the feeling that if I said "TAG" some of these folks would say, "Your it!" And how many of these folks think "Airbears" are those cool stuffed animals under canopy? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Grat point and the USPA tried to make it better with the proficency card....But lets be honest how many of those were just pencil whipped? Though spot to be in....Why could you not tell them stuff BTW? I went through my course with Bram. He spent a good bit of time with us before the course to teach us things. In fact he really recomended we did a few jumps with him before the course started....It helped quite a bit. I would recomend Bram in a second to anyone looking to get their rating. I have also see Bram tell people they were not ready and recomend they go home and work on a list of things them come back. I have seen quite a few folks show up with some serious problems in their own air skills. I have seen AFF canidates have problems giving hand signals without backsliding, and then blame the Course Director for them not passing "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

why is it nuts? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Simple, a book is written by looking at accidents. So a guy that really follows the book should have less accidents than a guy that does not. However, I disagree that attitude has no place. A persons attitude means a ton. If a guy admits he made a mistake and works to fix it, I give him more credit than a guy that yells and cusses. Now I have no idea what really happend, or which Jacko did....I have been told BOTH by people I tend to trust. So it could be a little of both or something else. I would agree that his AFF ticket is a bit much. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I use whatever DZ I am a "Local" at. When leaving Zhills I was told I will always be a local there, but I know thats not true. Leave a DZ for a few years and when you go back only a few people you know will still be there. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Don't worry about it. Know how many AFF jumps it took me to get off student status? Nope....Well I am not gonna tell ya either. It does not matter. Just focus on your mission and do not get concerned with the setbacks. It is for fun and once you get a few thousand jumps, no one cares how many AFF jumps it took. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Space is different than landing on the moon. BIG difference. Oh, *I* think we did. I just thought it would be cool if possible to actually SEE the landers we left behind. And if we could get pics of the landers then the folks that do not believe would just kinda sit there and stutter. But lets be honest, given the scope of the missions.....That is some amazing stuff, and I can understand how some people find it hard to grasp. We were able to go to the moon in the late 60's, but decades latter we finally went to the bottom of the ocean. Also remember that we had two shuttles explode and "all" they had to do was circle the globe, not travel to the moon, land and come back. I think we did it...But it amazes me still. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334