Ron

Based on the conditions the FF's put into place. So you think a citizen in good standing should be able to go out and buy a full auto M-16? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It would depend on several factors. Is the guy a felon for tax fraud? Sure! Is he a rapist? No. Do you think that felons should lose the right to vote forever? Besides, this has actually been covered... Just read my sig line. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." If the felon, or the insane person is dangerous, then they should not be free. And I would still like you, or anyone else, to find a SINGLE quote from a Founding Father that says it is not an individual right. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The SC also ruled on what a "militia" is: US v Miller, 1939: Still waiting for ONE quote from a Founding Father saying it is NOT an individual right. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Only to you, since you don't care. I happen to disagree, and I bet the Founding Fathers would disagree as well. Maybe you could read up on United States v. Miller. They had 4 points: On March 30, 1939 the Supreme Court heard the case. They ruled: If it were not for the fact that Miller and his lawyer never even showed up it would have been thrown out. Sawed off shotguns WERE and ARE used in many military's... I had one in 2000 that was issued to me. Maybe you should read Dred Scott v. Sandford or Plessy v. Ferguson to see that the SC is not perfect. Which seems to go 100% against the "Shall not be infringed" portion. Also it would seem your home City of Chicago does not seem to agree as well. So, should Chicago residents be allowed to own handguns or not Dr? And can you show ONE quote from a Founding Father that would support Chicago's current position? Or one quote from a Founding Father that would support your home town boys position on the AWB? I am betting that not even you can find ONE. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I know about a million American servicemen from about August 1945 that would disagree. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Of course... but I think every effort should be made to have him pay for his stupid acts. That's not what I said at all. You should read my post again. Then why are you willing to walk around the DZ and make all of us give our credit card numbers to them? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Got it, you are unable and now want to change the topic. The simple fact that it says *the right of the people (not States) to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed* should be enough. What are the people made of? Quotes from founding father after founding father show that it is made of the individuals that are willing to take up arms. But add in that time after time each founding father is on record supporting an individual right and not ONCE on record supporting a collective right alone. Again, please find ONE quote where they are against individuals having the right. Add in dozens of other quotes all saying the same thing... Then add in ZERO quotes supporting your position and it says plenty. Or he is simply saying that a militia is composed of the people (duh), that they should be trained to be effective (again, duh), is the best defense to the Country..... Yet not once does it say jack about any rights. It just says what it says and you are unable to find ANY quotes from a founding father AGAINST individual ownership. You would think if they were against individual ownership that they would have said it at least ONCE. And you would think if they were against individual ownership that they would not have written, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"... the would have written "the the right of the States to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Also since the BoR in every other article gives rights to individuals.... Why does the 2nd suddenly not? Fact is you can't prove it, you can't find ONE quote from a founding father that supports your position. Only because people like you that fight tooth and nail for every other right, seem to want to deny the 2nd at every opportunity you can. And NONE of you can bring a single shred of data that the founding fathers were against gun ownership of individuals.... And you ignore quote after quote that shows they were for ownership.... Such as my sig line. Please... Try to explain these away... Or even produce ONE quote against the individuals right: Those quotes even discuss the Government ownership vs. the individual. And as you can see the individual rights are supported. Yes, lets talk about Madison shall we. His proposed Amendment to the Constitution read: And he also said: Both of the above seem to support the individual right... Care to produce a quote from him saying it is not an individual right? Please, find ONE quote from a founding father that says the individual should not be allowed the right.... Simple fact is you will be unable. Most would consider the inability to find a single shred of data to support their position as holding an unsustainable belief.... Yet when it comes to the Second you and others continue to hold a belief that cannot be backed with a shred of data. Why is that? Why is it you will fight tooth and nail for every other Amendment and apply each and everyone to an individual... Yet you skip the 2nd? Again, to support your position, please find ONE quote from a founding father that is against individual ownership. James Madison also said in 1788, "I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." But please, you are a smart guy... Please find ONE quote from a founding father *against* the individuals right to own a weapon... I have looked and not been able to find one. Maybe you can succeed and bring some data that I have been unable to find. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That question HAS been answered. You just ignore the answer. I'll answer this time around... You call 911 and he gets basic life saving treatment. You then bill him. If he defualts then you put a lean on his earnings. You give him basic care... Which means he does not get the expensive surgery that would fix his limp. Now a question for you that is just as absurd... He has been told to upsize and has ignored you. He hits the ground, you call 911 and then suddenly the emt's ask for your credit card number.... Are you just going to give it to them and pay the bill yourself? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Utter nonsense. I think the jumper that plowed into the crowd should be held accountable for their actions too. I don't give them a free pass since they are doing an activity I like. Not even a nice attempt. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That is saying when the militia is called up for action that the govt can appoint officers. Nothing new there. During the revolution, bands of men that formed on their own were often appointed an officer to lead them as part of a combined unified front. Also, it has already been pointed out that there are TWO standards of militia, active and everyone else. The definition given by Mason still stands... That the militia is everyone but a few govt people. Do you care to try and find a single quote from a founding father that says the individual should not be allowed to keep and bear arms.... I have asked others to produce one and they have either refused or failed to find one. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

*I* wasn't saying you were Just saying it again. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If this gets signed... What will the anti gun crowd say when shootings do not happen every night at the bar? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You can't use current definitions to alter the Constitution. You can't change a definition and remove a right. Arguing that the 2nd does not apply today would be like arguing that the 1st does not cover TV, Radio, or internet. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, but I should not have to pay for your accidents. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not really. Alcohol is legal, but people still steal to get it. Now, I don't have a problem with people doing drugs.... As long as they don't affect anyone else. The problem is in many cases it does. I don't care of a guy gets wasted, but the problems from his addiction should not be mine. I should not have to give money (welfare) to people who are so baked/sloshed they can't keep or get a job. It also includes me not being willing to pay for their health problems related to drugs; If some methhead wants to rot his teeth, then I should not have to pay for his dental work. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Except the National Guard is considered part of the "armed forces" and they specifically state that members of the armed forces, except members who are not on active duty are exempt. I would read that if you are active duty, you are not part of the militia, but if you were not active duty that you would be considered part of the militia. Besides, I think the intent is pretty clear... The Militia is everyone but those that are already serving or those who's service would hamper the overall effort. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It's cool. This is the big point for me: I think when looked at from a historical perspective that there really is only one way to look at the 2nd. I think that people who want to claim it only applies to organized forces are just trying to re-create it to fit their needs. It is interesting to note that the statute lists who is exempt from the militia: That right there kinda blows the whole "the Army is the militia" argument right out of the water, IMO. And I agree with what you said here: People know how hard it is to get the Constitution amended... So, they instead play legal games and try to redefine the words to get what they want. I think that if the Amendment were written today in plain English it might read: Since a Government needs to be protected, even from itself; The people will have the right to own and carry firearms. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes... Which is to say the 2nd is more about protecting an individuals right to an M16 than a duck gun. Also, you have to look at what was considered to be a militia at that time: "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." — George Mason, in Debates in Virginia Convention on Ratification of the Constitution, Elliot, Vol. 3, June 16, 1788 "The militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves, ... all men capable of bearing arms;..." — "Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic", 1788 (either Richard Henry Lee or Melancton Smith). "Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress shall have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American ... The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the People." — Tench Coxe, 1788. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Again, Quade, you are a smart guy... Please find one quote from a founding father saying the individual should not be allowed arms... Then explain what Jefferson really meant in my sig line. And your link just shows they debated the wording, not the intent. It says the right will not be infringed, a well armed militia is in the best interest of the country, and that a person who has a religious objection would not be forced to serve. Still pretty cut a dry. Like I said... Find a quote from a founding father against gun ownership. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I am on my iPhone with out 3 update so I can't cut and paste... But the National ACLU has posted on it's website that they do not support the right of an indvidual to have a gun. They claim it is a State right. Some of the local ACLU chapters do support the right of an individual, but not the National org. This came to light right after Heller. Quade, you are a smart guy... Please find one quote from a founding father saying the individual should not be allowed arms... Then explain what Jefferson really meant in my sig line. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I would not call it "free" anymore than I consider my health care from my company "free". It was part of my compensation packages in both cases. I have had company cars... Again, not "free", but a part of my total compensation. I have had "free" airfare.... In all these cases, I performed a service and and received different things in compensation. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I'm thinking at some point we need to have a DZ.com shoot "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Except that things like the Blair Holt bill does include having to pay a tax to own any hangun or semi weapon, and the NFA of 1934 put a prohibitive tax on certain types of weapons. So it HAS happened, and there are people that want to do exactly that on other items. So while THIS letter may be false, that does not mean that the idea is not out there and in some peoples plans.... Hell, even Chris Rock said to make bullets so expensive no one can shoot any. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

More like in your attempt at humor you actually were right on a topic by accident. Seeing what he has done, and listening to what he says he wants to do does not make a person paranoid. You are a smart guy... Find me some quotes from the founding fathers that claim citizens should NOT be granted the right to own weapons. And then compare their comments to Obamas. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And he has a proven history of trying to do exactly that. And he has made comments saying he will do exactly that "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334