Ron

You have proof that the rich are using this? Who do you think it is aimed at? Who do you think it was designed for? Do I think some "rich" people used it? Sure.... But I bet more people took out loans to buy the new car than paid cash.... you wanna put some money on that? Do you really think going deeper into debt is the smart way to financial strength? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I did. I also paid all 25k off in about a year. I had just moved for a new job and my current car broke down. I was in a new city with no support systems. I needed a car to continue to work and didn't have the time to find a good used car. Still, I paid it off as fast as I could, and now have a significant fund set aside for the next car already. I never said there were not times when some things are necessary... But needed does not make it the best move. Trading in a car that runs to buy a new car on credit is not the same as taking out a loan cause your car is dead. That's not true. The next guy could just go buy a new car as well. Plus, that is not what they are doing, and you know it. I guess we will never "know" the real answer... People still debate the 29 crash and depression today. You and I both don't know if the system would have collapsed.... I doubt it since there are other Country's that have been in FAR worse shape and pulled through. One way to build that new economy is to allow people to invent without being handcuffed. If we allowed the same regulations we have in place now back when Ford started.... It would have died right then and there. That is not to say "Damn the torpedoes" but you can't cripple the effort either. A lot of people are going to have to accept that the old model of the US being a manufacturing based economy is over. What is the new economy going to be based on???? As soon as you figure it out, let me know so I can get rich with you. Europe has had VERY high gas costs for a long time and they have not found new sources of energy. When THEY are paying for the car, it is up to the consumer... When *I* am buying their car, I have a say. "a nice sound system, new phthalate smell, sun roof, floorboard that doesn't leak, alloy wheels, sleek paint job" I should not have to pay so you can have a cool ride. That's important... It is not MY job to give you fun things. Plus, while you can tout lower emissions... Several discussions have already taken place that you are not really saving pollution when you factor in building the new car, and destroying the old. And the savings.... Yeah it is going to matter based on your commute... But an additional 1100 miles to make up the difference between the MIN improvement? You really think that is a good thing? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sure, as soon as you provide the DATA form the DOT, not CR. As soon as you explain how going more in debt is a smart way to get out of debt. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sure, for them to make money they have to loan money out. They are in the business of making money and that requires taking some risk. Since they just were bailed out once, I am sure they feel the current risk is worth it to try and make more money. Maybe you can now explain how getting more in debt is a good way to get out of debt? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sure you did... You claimed consumer reports had all the answers. That's OK John... we all know that you can sleep at night since you have done your part to "Help" the poor. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I never once mentioned a magic wand. Johnny - If you think that the answer to helping the poor is to get them more in debt and increase their debt to income ratio... they you are being completely unrealistic. If you think that some Govt program that encourages them to go into debt is a solution to really help the poor and elevate them from poverty ... they you are living in a fantasy world. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then why encourage people who can't really afford a new car to buy one? How is this better? It would not collapse, it would just have a slower more healthy recovery. Pumping it up artificially will have a drawback later... Just look at the desire to have everyone own a home and how that crashed. Part of that is to accept that we will never have the manufacturing base we used to have. Americans are not willing to pay the higher costs that it would take to make products over here.... The big three should be proof of that. True, but many keep saying that THIS plan will save the US auto industry.... That's just BS. There is no "quick" fix. This program is a glaring example of a bad program. It increases their debt, increases the nations debt, does not really deliver long term healthy outcomes, and is being rushed without looking at the drawbacks. It is being sold as a great idea and people are getting behind it to feel good about doing something.... But they are not looking at the longer term issues. Cutting demand for Gas will only cause the oil industry to lower output to keep demand high. AND cutting gas consumption will only cause a reduction in revenue from the taxes on each gallon... We have seen this already. So the Govt will just have to raise the revenue by raising the tax on each gallon. And how much of a gas savings will be needed to offset 160/mth car payment? 160 is 61 gallons of gas where I live, or 1100 miles on an 18MPG car. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Neither do you. But you get to feel good about doing something... Even if it hurts more than it really helps. I guess that is all that matters to you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

"No single drop or rain wants to be held responsible for the flood". Wealth is about attitude, not income. I know people that make 2X what I make and have less. to quote Buffett (Jimmy, not Warren), "I made enough money to buy Miami, but I pissed it away as fast". You want to help people? Give them the tools to help themselves live a responsible life and don't give them the temptation to go deeper in debt to try and feel good. I ALMOST bought a 2006 Corvette instead of my Mustang. It was 60k vs 25k. I could have afforded either, but would have not been able to pay off my car as fast. Would having the Corvette made me 30k+ happier? How about when that kid ran into the back of my car? When I got the big door ding? Affordable transportation is EXACTLY what a good number of these cars were. Paid for is about as affordable as you can get. If you buy a 15k car with a factory 2k rebate and get the 4500 dollar CFC rebate. Then you take out a loan on the 8500 at 6% for 60 mths... you get a 160ish car payment each mth. PLUS, you have to carry full coverage insurance. So, what kind of gas savings will offset an additional 160/mth? What could you do with an additional 160/mth? And the reason is because they have not been financially responsible. The answer to that is not having them go deeper in debt for a new car. Nonsense. If they have a good used car, they have 160/mth to save for when that car breaks down. If you save 160/mth each year you put aside 1920.00 dollars. Heck, I have bought 3 cars I drove for a few years each for 2500.00. I would not say I have been lucky.... I worked through the issues. I have had cars break, I have had cars die on me... Not luck, pre planning. Nope... they would have continued to drive the car they had without payments. Otherwise car sales would not have spiked so much. They would be much better off with the additional 160/mth in their pockets. The economy would be much better off if they didn't go deeper into debt. They could then spend that money in other areas, not on finance charges. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

THIS program will not lower education, healthcare, gas or food prices. It WILL make it harder for financially responsible people to find cheep used cars and parts. This program WILL increase the debt load of many people and that additional debt will leave less money for education, healthcare, gas or food. You can't think that it is a good idea for poor people to go deeper in debt and to increase the cost of good used cars? Are you advocating that each one of us go get a new credit card and run up 20-30k in new purchases to save the economy? If not then what is really the difference? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And YOU are ignoring evidence about the long term effects. YOU are ignoring the evidence that it is not doing as much for the economy since it requires going deeper in debt. YOU are ignoring that it is not helping the climate as much since the new cars had to be made, the old cars have to be destroyed, and the trash from the parts that cannot be reused have to be buried somewhere. I'm not sure why *you* are projecting your very narrow set of circumstances on the American public, but I guess you are the epicenter of your universe. I have ZERO debt... Not a single dime. I drive a 2006 Mustang GT that is paid for, have another 11 k set aside to by my next car already, and just sold my house and made 17k. It is not MY circumstances.... Maybe yours. Maybe you like driving a new car and being in debt and think debt is normal and healthy. OR, you could buy a nice lower mileage used car for a few grand and not go into debt at all. But this program is getting rid of those and due to that the prices for those will go up... Making it harder for people who are trying to avoid debt to accomplish that goal. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, this program is encouraging taking older cars and trading them in for new cars and new car payments.... that is EXACTLY the problem our Country has with debt. While this program may not have created the problem, it does encourage it to continue. You can't spend your way out a recession by spending money you don't have. Those bills come due and they have to get paid at some point. The housing bust should serve as a glowing example that you can't go into debt to buy a depreciating asset and think that is a wise move in the long haul. YES, but not by getting them to go deeper into debt. Are you advocating that each one of us go get a new credit card and run up 20-30k in new purchases to save the economy? YES, but one of the major factors is people buying crap they don't NEED. And it gets worse when they buy that crap they can't afford on credit. THE fix? Or the fix that makes people happy and is easy to sell, but might not work? They are not the same. The fix is to get people to become financially responsible. To save and not buy crap they don't need to try and be happy. To teach people that toys do not make you happy (they can help). But if you struggle to pay for your toys, then they bring more pain than pleasure. We see this ALL the time in skydiving. A person who is broke gets a credit card to learn and then buy new gear... they soon find out that they can't afford to jump as much as they would like. They enjoy the DZ, but get stressed every time they look at their credit card statements. The fix that makes people happy and that does not really work is what this program is about. It is like Marie Antoinette declaring "Let them eat cake!" So we take people in debt, and let them go MORE into debt just so they can feel a little better. Never mind the longer term effects. It is putting a bandaid on the symptom, not fixing the illness. And never mind that the program is going to reduce the supply of good used cars, increase the cost of used parts, increase the buyers debt load, increase insurance payments, and only have a short term boost in auto sales. By all means, find a way... but find away that does more than provide a quick one time high feeling...All the while deepening the overall situation. You want to help the poor? STOP giving them reasons to go deeper into debt! Find a way to help them get low cost, good quality USED cars that can be paid off in a hurry. I have bought several cars (5) for less than 3k and drove each of them for 50k+ miles (or sold them for more than I paid for them). Heck, one I bought for 600 bucks, drove for 50k miles and sold for 500 bucks! I have a paid for 06 Mustang GT with 60k miles on it AND 11k in a fund to pay cash for my next car. THAT'S how you get out of being poor, not by buying a new car and going deeper in debt each time. Instead, this program encourages the destruction of the very cars that would be PERFECT for a poorer driver! It encourages them to go DEEPER IN DEBT!!!! Don't get me wrong, if you could pay cash for the new car this would be a GREAT deal. But increasing a poor person debt load is NOT how you help them get out of debt and stop being poor. The solution to helping the poor is not just handing them money, or encouraging them to go deeper in debt. How about we spend some time doing a better job of teaching personal finance in elementary school and HS? Teach the dangers of debt and give them some tools to avoid it? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And if they are interested in that candidate based on race... then it is based on race. Based on the historic increase in black voter turnout for this election. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What part of "THIS PROGRAM GETS PEOPLE TO INCUR MORE DEBT" do you not understand? I got it... you only want to LOOK like you are helping them... Not actually help anyone. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Been living under a rock? I guess people like you like these programs that put more people dependent on handouts. I'd rather people be self sufficient and economically responsible instead of chasing the shiny new toy just because they got a great deal. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Depends on my factors such as use and MX. I know folks with beaters that have 200k+ on them no problem. I had a car die on me once.... I paid 600 dollars cash for another car and drove it 60k miles before I paid cash (2,500) for another used car that I drove for another 50k miles. Paying cash for another good condition used car is MUCH better than going into debt to buy a new car. Of course this program requires the old cars to be destroyed... Which will raise the cost of old used cars since it will reduce supply. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not when the higher turnout was based only on race. But the fact they turned out last year was due to race... Unless you have another theory why greater numbers came out than ever before. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well since it WAS NOT FROM THE DOT... I guess it was from the salespeople. Amazingly, you support the idea of poor people going more into debt... so much for you caring about them. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, but many people who were not in the market for a new car (and new payments) are now buying to take advantage of a good deal. The sudden rise in sales should prove that point. It is like the joke about the wife that bought 1k of purses since they were on sale and claims, "Think of all the money I saved!" That is the idea, but you can clearly see that does not always happen... Just like the mortgage crisis you mentioned. And while you can claim that banks are not that stupid twice, they have already started loosening lending requirements. Why? Because they have to lend money to make money. And if your monthly payment was currently zero.... So you buy a 15k car with 6,500 off, you finance 8,500 bucks. The payments on 8,500 bucks is 164/mth. So if you were in the market for a car, yeah, it is a good deal . But if the deal made you trade in your current car for a 164/mth payment and most likely higher insurance... Well, not such a great deal. You would have to drive A LOT to make up 164/mth in gas savings. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It is amazing how many lefties are willing to ignore data just so they can feel good about doing something.... even if the fix is worse than the problem, and even if the "fix" will cause more hardship on the people they claim to support. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Clearly you still are not looking. The DOT has not released the data... and "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

But to have someone go into debt to do it is not a Financially wise move. You would prefer someone go deeper in debt for a 4 MPG increase when the carbon offset is greatly reduced by both the carbon footprint of making the new car and destroying the old one? You said something before about being penny wise and pound foolish. You are buying into the hype, not looking at the data. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This is a big problem.... So we should vote to extend something before we know what it is doing? Also, 3500 for a 4MPG gain? Sheesh. I could almost have accepted it if the new cars got 30+ MPG. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/21/us/politics/21vote.html The data says otherwise. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ah strawman, the best you can do is avoid the real topic and pick on a small really unimportant detail Again this just shows how you chuck logic out the window when it suits you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334