Ron

No single drop of rain wants to be held responsible for the flood. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You must have missed that it is the business of a company to move a product... If it is a car or a loan, they must move product to make money. The products were created to be able to give out loans and cash in on the profits... You really think that a car dealer will not sell a person a car they don't need? There was no law that required lenders to loan to everyone that wanted a house, it was "encouraged". It is being encouraged here as well. You must have also missed that this program does not have loan guidelines in it. Yes, and so did toxic mortgages..... Should those be brought back? It is stimulating one part of the economy... But it is doing so in a way that encourages bad practices.... Where have I seen that before????? Oh yeah, the housing bubble! Part of being personally responsible is to not encourage irresponsible behavior with my money. You have every right to do anything you want... till it affects me. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And I answer that in post #25 of this thread. You just throw out any logic when it comes to a political discussion... A process that I bet you would fail a student for if they tried it in one of your classes. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You are missing the larger point.... APR's and creative financing also sold more homes and helped builders and real estate agents. That does not mean it was a good thing in the long run. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A purely emotional argument.... I'd expect better from you. Bailing out the banks was something I didn't agree with, but even Dems had loans and accounts in those institutions. And if they failed, then that money would have to be paid by taxpayers. By giving them loans, they might not fold, and we might get our money back. CFC is a program that will encourage people who have running cars to trade them in, many of those people will leave with a new car and NEW CAR PAYMENTS.... Going further into debt is never a wise economic model. And a good number of those are not in the economic situation where they should be buying a new car. NPR had a piece on this, they said it would take 5-8 years for the carbon offset to equal. AND it will take many, many miles of driving to make up in gas cost (at 4 MPG better) to break even on going from no car payment to now having a car payment. Plus, in 2010 MPG is supposed to go up to 27MPG... We are giving people 3500 tax payer bucks to buy a car that before it is even paid off will be BELOW the new standard. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

People who actually read the post before spouting off would see the question marks. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yet there are plenty in the thread where he actually asks the question. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I didn't realize that there are Mods for only Conservative posters and another for only Liberal posters. Do you use a complex checklist that lists several items such as 2nd amendment positions, Tax beliefs, welfare opinions, the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan.... Or do you use a simple if you voted for X or Y to decide who moderates whom? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And Carter and now Obama it seems. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I think you are normally one of the more logical people I know... In fact, you have taught me a few things about debate. But, I also think you sometimes throw that logic right out the window on certain issues. Many times BS has been posted and shot down quickly.... This is not the single rose, but one pulled from a garden. I don't' get my news from DZ.com.... But I have gotten leads on news story's here that I later went out and read more about. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Anyone surprised? Obama repeatedly pledged "you will not see any of your taxes increase one single dime." Cap and Trade they have admitted will increase your costs. Tobacco Tax was raised....Ect. I thought this quote was slick.... "If we want an economy that's going to grow in the future, people have to understand we have to bring those deficits down. And it's going to be difficult, hard for us to do. And the path to that is through health care reform," Summers said Obama's health care plan needs funding from somewhere. Very slick to tie an increase in taxes to healthcare. I think raising taxes is one thing that can be done.... I don't like it, but to balance a budget you need to cut expenses and increase revenue. You can't raise expenses and lower revenue and expect to get out of debt. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What is classy is that you only point that out when some people do it.... I have not seen you make the same comment when people call others rePUBICans, Shrub ect... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Prudent people also ask questions before the believe something.... The OP here asked a QUESTION to check the validity of something. You jumped his case when he asked a question... .do you treat your students that way? Now if you had included left wing blogs also, I would have agreed with you. Seems to have worked in this case.... So if it does work, then your theory has been proven false. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Very true.... I was thinking more inline with buying something you can't afford that goes down in value. Yes, this program is worse in the fact that the asset will not increase in value (rare exceptions) by design. I think that getting people to get rid of a running paid for car to buy a new car with payments is not exactly the smartest financial move. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Pretty good summary. The issue is: It only gets them off the road if the person can afford to buy a new car... It is a great deal if you are in the market for a new car and can afford it. However, it gets people who should not be buying a new car to take on a car loan. That is not really a good thing. What happens if these people can't afford them, a car crisis like the housing one? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You seriously can't see that you can have integrity and make a profit? You seem to be missing the concept of crime and punishment. You think that Madoff should be allowed out? Total BS... If I had a cure for Cancer, I would be one rich mofo. And they make all that money from selling that vaccine. WOW think of all the money you would get if every AIDS patient used your drug.... The irony of that statement is off the charts. You have not? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You are aware that you can't spend your way out of a deficit right? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You are missing where he said it was "being unfair to the poor". If I had a clunker I could use the program since I have the cash to buy a new car.... If you are poor, you don't have that cash and would trade in your old (most likely paid off) car and trade it in for a new car that comes with new car payments. So, the people that can afford the new car... Most likely already have it. The people that can't afford a new car are not likely to get rid of one they have so they can now have a car payment. And those that are poor would be ill advised to go deeper in debt....Even if they can get a loan right now. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

http://fleming.house.gov/images/FLEMING%20HEALTH%20CARE%20RESOLUTION.pdf Basically, if a Rep votes for a public plan then they would have to accept that plan and not the plan they currently get. If it is good for the rest of the US, it should be good enough for them, IMO. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Because: Profit means the customer pays. Charity means someone else pays. Simple really. Plus I said new and better, not always cheaper. New and better things seem to cost more. My Rolex cost more than my Timex. PLUS, back when I was born the median house price the year I was born was $28,900 Last year it was 213,020 Average Income in that year $11,800.00 Average Income last year $58,029 Cost of a gallon of Gas 55 cents Cost of a gallon now 2.80 Might as well claim that we should only make 15k, be able to buy a new house for 50k and buy gas for 1.00. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And he mentioned that health care back then was a thermometer up the butt and a plaster cast. Today it is much more advanced. The reason? Profit leads to new and better methods. Just like Henry Ford basically started the modern industrial age in the US. And when he priced his cars low enough so the average man could afford them. You think that was out of a sense of goodwill, or the knowledge that it opened up a new untapped market? And you do realize that he is the kind of "news" person he is making fun of right? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Tough call... I'd say I like the idea they can, but think in most cases they should not. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope, and yet another one of your falsely held beliefs about the US and guns falls victim to the light of truth. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

1800-USA-Army. You too can have the same thing. Sure it is, the system does not work very well and costs more than a civilian system. And that's just with Vets being in it.... Imagine the cost if EVERYONE was in it? I take it you have never actually been to a VA hospital? And everyone can have this system, just enlist in the military (work for someone that provides healthcare as part of your employment). "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It is MUCH better. Less wait time, I can get the exact drugs that the Dr. thinks I need (The VA has lists of approved drugs; If the Dr. thinks I need something other than one of those, too bad.) Being truthful is not condescending. I have had some of the WORST doctors in my life. One kept running the SAME test 12 times... Each time it came up with the exact SAME answer. That's 24 visits, one to have the blood work drawn, the other to get the results. It was not until I went to my civilian Dr. that he went to run the same test and I told him that I had done it 12 times that he ran the next level test. I have to wait weeks to see a Dr if I get sick through the VA... My civilian Dr, I can see him today if I want. Hell, I have his cell number and can call him. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334