rhys

A very unlikely situation, winds at 5k would be more like 30+ in those conditions. You all pass through the same wind speed and have the same windshares, If the plane is stationary on jumprun, 2 people loaded the same would open in the same place regardeless of wind strength and direction changes. When we waited 45 seconds, we waited until the tandem canopy was open until we exited. At times the pilot would make a diagonal jumprun for safety but most liked being stationary in an aircraft at 12k, 15k jumps are usually not going in those conditions. remember the plane is essentially stationary, there is no harm in waiting longer then not long enough! these conditions are not usual at most places but considering the OP is in NZ i wanted to point it out! i don't use the 45 degree rule as such but I do look to see the separation being achieved! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

that is moderate winds bill, everyday occurance in NZ. i'm talking about 70+ knots at 12k, 23 knots on the ground and Zero ground speed. this is not uncommon at a buzy tandem factory in NZ, they do push the limits beyond what i would call safe but they do it and they are allowed. Zero or even slightly negative ground speed will mean you are not gaining horizontal separation, and will have to wait a long time between exits! We can run in at 65 knots in a cresco, and some pilots do not make adiagonal run in to garantee separation. 46 knot uppers_is_not howling uppers, that is moderate uppers. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

You mean the guys that "were not paid by the government" but, demoloshed the remains at ground zero, and have taken and accumulated "thousands of photos" from the site, yet have not published them. Yeah those experts, squeaky clean with no financial connection whatsoever?!??! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

because you don't actually study what it is you try to consider yourself an expert on; source who developed the stuff; The USA government of course "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Great rebuttal there Bill! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

You have shown clearly that you don't understand the strength and designs of these bulidings. You probably read the FEMA reports (like most) in detail and nothing else since, as these were the first explanations given. Fema didin't explain the constructon very well and omitted including the actual vertical strenght (the core) of the building in its reports. By the time NIST released their report, your opinion was already set in concrete here, even though you didn't have the correct information to base it upon! You have proven it is worthless debating with you! ok, Poindexter, you refuse to see the point but make stupid comments, so I'll re phrase Individually all 3 buildings had to have had all of thier vertical core colums fail at precicely the same time for the buliding to fail as they did. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

I will assume that most of the people that 'bash' the 45dgre thing and say it is crap and all this stuff without explaining a better system, have never jumped between 40 and 50 degrees lattitude? example; and comments like these; Lead me to believe these strong advocates/postwhores have no experience with strong upper winds. The sad thing about this conversation is that the origional poster is in New Zealand and will most likey be subject to strong upper winds on a daily basis. when I say strong I mean strong like up to 50knots+ at altitude. most posters here have never been near the 45degree south latitude (Roaring forties) where these type of winds are prevelant yet wish to be outspoken about such exerience. I have many (over 2500) of my jumps in Queenstown, New Zealand and around that town which is smack bang at 45 degrees lattitude, smack in the middle of the roaring forties. Let me tell you nay sayers, there has been plenty of times where we have had to wait for at least 45 seconds on a jumprun between exits (12000' jumps), the aircraft (cresco, cessna 185, porter) has been stationary due to thier slow run in speeds and similar speed upper winds. In this situation the group in fact does stay directly below you, waiting any less time would put you in serious danger. When we (my wife and I) come to tropical climates, the dz staff wonder why we are so concerned with upper winds and laugh at us as though we are amateures! But from time to time, even in the tropics, strong upper winds can be there, and these guys still pile put on top of each other like lemmings. The origonal poster deserves a better description than what has been given, bickering between one another to prove a point, inflate an ego or increase post numbers is doing nothing for the safety of the person that needs this information the most. For the OP, If your DZSO or CSO requests that you use this rule, I suggest you do so. although 45 degrees might never happen as explained in various hypothesies, a good shift in the position of the previous group towards the tail indicates adequate separation is being achieved. Never rely on counting alone, use your eyes and your instincts as well. In New Zealand winds can change abruptly (as I am sure you are aware) and the uppers play a strong role in what happens in the big picture, when the uppers are so strong, it usually indicates the weather is going to change, the wind on the ground will usually increase significantly not long after strong upper winds are recorded, but sometimes though it can be 60 knots at 12000 and 8 knots in the landing area all day long. Be safe, be aware and listen to the experienced jumpers from 'your regon', they have the most knowledge of what happens at your dz. Have fun while doing so!

so your point is? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

So what makes you any more capable than another to be able to perform this manoever? You had training? We/I could get training. What makes you so special? Proablably the same as you once I had the training, Avoid a 3 out would be the first step I suppose! The funny thing about this whole debate is that where I am from gainers are acceptable but doing tandems with less than 1000 jumps is not, I didn't do my rating until about 2200 jumps and that is common also where I am from. And a piece of advice given that was not necessarily explained very well; flashed by, taken from a newer tandem master and not commented on! Now I am not by any means taking a shot at you feuergnom, but is was a perfect example of hypocracy and bad advice. Where the manover in question may be perfectly acceptable, the advice to the customer is not standard practice, not explained very well and is more likely to promote an unstable exit, than performing the correct body position and doing a gainer. I would like to know what is meant by "My second favorite Skyvan exit was to tell the student to pick up their feet - a couple of metres from the edge - then I turned to face the pilot and hopped off, head-high and was immediately stable. " What does that mean exactly (I do actually want to know), [proving a point] That isn't safe, that is not the manufacturers' recommendations, you shouldn't do that, you might go unstable! [/proving a point] "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

There is a fair amount of assumtion in that comment. I am assuming you are commenting on this comment of mine? When you say no they don't, explain how so. I have seen quite a few guys in different places, that do have the drouge out within a very short period of time, the gainer is not much more than a 100 degree rotation and your bellys are into the wind. The rotation can be controlled and the relative wind is still from the direction of the prop blast, minus a couple of degrees. Read your reply again ***No they don't and if you believe so, you're not doing it right. I've got 6000+ tandems and far more than a "few" intentionally unstable exits, that say I'm right. You fail to grasp the concept that it's not your skydive and the student is incapable of making an informed decision about an unstable exit. I have never performed gainers that way or for that purpose and have never intended on doing so. I simply stated that they can be done like that. I would rather complete the rotation fly stable and have the drogue out within 3-5 seconds, as the rules that apply to me most of the time allow. As a videographer (2500 jumps) I have witnessed many unstable exits, some were trying to do poised stable exits and others were truing to; look cool, fly out of thier ability or were simply being incompetant. Bad exits are for the most part for the most part not the students' fault, though they are more often than not blamed for them. Once a t/m is able to fly all the exits with no trouble, then they may have the competence to try such manoevers. This can take hundreds of tandems, and there are many tandem master with 1000's of tandems that still cannot do this. I have done 40 tandems in the last 3.5 days and have done 2 gainers. Wow, what a 'crazy guy'! I prefer to fly with the camera guy, not shouve my ass in his face, when I have outside camera, I will have handicam only in a few months will be plenty of time for gainers then. 'With a handicam glove on'?!?! It is both of our skydives, as an instructor you are paid to give the customer a good, safe experience. This means that you remain in your comfort zone and experience level. A tandem does not need to be a stage 1 aff type jump as it is an introductory dive. The experience of the tandem instructor allows the level of difficulty that will remain in the safe category. It begins with the introduction, the briefing and continues until you shake thier hand wave goodbye and say "see ya next time for your solo course." If a customer of mine knows I am going to do a gainer, I'll let them know it will only happen if they are relaxed and I am happy with thier performance, (this is my criteria whether or not they know it is going to happen) they feel a great sense of achievment, after I do it even though i am capable if performing it with a less than perfect body poistion. Whether they do a gainer or not they all have a good time. I do about 1000 of these a year nowdays, I am allowed to make it a little fun for me also. Unstable used to be anything 'not on your belly'. I have only been skydiving 7 years so this was before my time! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

read this again Bill; The failure of 'a' floor or 3 is the most likely, if any from the fires, with the assistance of the initial damage. The complete destruction of the entire structure in about 10 seconds (very near freefall speed) that is bulit to flex in hurricanes, sway in earth quakes and sustain multipule impacts from very large aircraft, is not. This summary includes the timeframe between the impact of the planes and the initiation of the collapse. From initiation of any considerable structural failure resulting in a downward movement, to complete destruction actually only took around 10 seconds. This is the part that had me believe it was intended to withstand multipule impacts but it was actully belived so my mistake, but still a valid statement to consider. A single floor is not millions of tonnes, are you saying it is certain that all the core structure collapsed simultaniously, on all 3 buildings due to random fire? That is what would need to happen, all at precicely the same time!!!??? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

This is a great example of where the story does not compute; The failure of 'a' floor or 3 is the most likely, if any from the fires, with the assistance of the initial damage. The complete destruction of the entire structure in about 10 seconds (very near freefall speed) that is bulit to flex in hurricanes, sway in earth quakes and sustain multipule impacts from very large aircraft, is not. look at the blue prints of the core and the pictures of them building it and ask how these huge cores imploded simultainiously due to a fire of jet fuel? Wow, what an assertion. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

O.k. then, so if you study the blueprints of the buildings, watch how they collapsed and read the NIST report in its entirelty, focusing on the initiation of the collapses and how the momentum began excellerated and continued, (whilst understanding how the buildings were constucted). you shoul understand that ir should never have happened that way, and if it did the desin and construction team of the buildongs should be held accountable. for the deaths of all the post impact civilians and emergengy personell. Pretty simple stuff really, but when you cloud it with the emotion, phycology and implications that are involved, you can be swayed into thinking the impossible is in fact possible because the other option is too grim to fathom! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Define unsatble? Gainers can allow you to have the drogue out(stable) in less time than a poised exit, if you so wish to do so. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

i dunno if you or bill hold the 'Crap Analogy' title. You are now trying to say that doing a gainer with a coherent, relaxed tandem customer poses the same peril as telling a student to do a 90 on landing. [sarcasm]I take it you are talking from experience?[/sarcasm] "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Yep that mistake or typo that one guy made, renders all the evidence and opinions of all the engineers and architects absolutely usless. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

was a typo mistake, i corrected it now! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Your mate 'beachnut' has what qulifications to be rendering the hundreds of years of experience and educational experience of these industry professionals to a mare, 'What do they know'. What a joke. We will see what happens. But you should realise that a high percentage of those petition signers have great knowledge of the laws of physics. And they will have for the most part have read the NIST report in its entirety. You friend 'beachnut' has what qualifications again? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

If there was with tertiary parachute in your intentionals, there is no reason why they should not be as safe for any experienced skydiver with the correct training to conduct. If not, well the implications of having done so would give reason to question your judgment. A fun Gainer or similar exit with a tandem is not akin to intentially cuttng away your main by any strech of the imagination, and I fail to see your point? You represented both ends of the spectrum without including the lions share, there is pleny of colour between ultra violet and infra red, as there are tandem masters that like to have fun on occasion and make their customers' experience 'custom built' to thier level of ability and coherence. A vanilla skydive for idiots and a nice gainer for the onto it relaxed ones. Trying to give the impression these acts are conducted on every skydive is not a good argument! If they are, then maybe you're right but done with good judgment you are not. I do agree however good judgement is gained through experience, I have 2000 or so tandems now and feel much more competant than I was at 1000 tandems. I will do a gainer or similar probably less than 10 percent of the time! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

I seem to have made a mistake, was ill informed or the date was changed for respectful reasons? The date is actually set to be some time in October 2009; As quoted all the tin hat conspiracy theories "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Wow, what a great post, I wholeheartedly agree. I was sent to a prebetarian school (St. Andrews College) for high school, although we did do religous studies, which taught us many differences between the different religons, we had to attend chapel 2 times a week and we sang hymns at assembly as well as a good old 'preachin' from the chaplain. I could not believe some of the 'bullshit artist' stories that were being palmed off as the basis of life at chapel and then going off to physics and biology classes. It was all quite confusing wondering why these people thought in this way. As much as the chapel stores had good morals for the most part, and were entertaining, I was too much set in my ways from living in an agnostic family (so actually still open to suggestion) in a alower socioeconomic community to be palmed of these fables as truths or destinies. I did enjoy the 'very large' pipe organ, but grew to loath bagpipes . "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Bound to, Only a matter of time now! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

it is hard to tell when the poster did not link the source. It last someone who is educated in the subject, commenting on it, and bringing clarity to a particular point instead of claging up cyber space with nonsense about irelevant points. Childish attacks from postwhores and moderators alike with no substance or evidence will never overshadow the multitude of scientific professionals that are constantly producing the evidence. Published by respectable intitutes, yet the nay sayers only see the idiotic claims by idiots and pile all thetheories in the same heap. Fortunately the scientists and professional such as; Niels H. Harrit, Jeffrey Farrer, Steven E. Jones, Kevin R. Ryan, Frank M. Legge, Daniel Farnsworth, Gregg Roberts, James R. Gourley and Bradley R. Larsen are continuing to produce the evidence, and more and more people are seeing past the drivel that is clamed as reality. yet another link to scientifically backed evidence by experts in the field, that will be laughed at and falsely refuted by un-qualified sheep The author of these documents have real careers and credentals in the field and are much more well spoken than the childish, post whores that like to stick together whatever the case. I thank you for your post, it is a breath of fresh air to know there are people out there that don't necessarily believe what I do but can remain well spoken and informative. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

I used to respect your posts bill, putting words in people mouths and skewing thier opinions is not really 'cricket' now is it. the symmetry of the collapses is the question, no one on this planet is refuting the plane crashed into the twin towers. Random inputs do nt usually end up with symmetrical results. There are already over thirty-five peer-reviewed papers at the Journalof911Studies.com nothing is stopping you or anyone from stopping these journals from being peer reviewed, you simply have to state your beliefs as facts using the scientific method. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Denying it is there without looking is plain old stupid! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix