rhys

it is funny that you mention that; while I was studying this last night I cam acrosss this letter; There Was No Missile At the Pentagon - But the Plane Did Not Hit (an open letter to the 9/11 truth movement) by: Craig Ranke Citizen Investigation Team www.ThePentaCon.com February 26, 2009 Citizen Investigation Team (CIT) has made it our mission to provide independent verifiable evidence revealing what truly happened at the Pentagon on 9/11/2001. As it turns out we have been extremely successful in obtaining quite a large body of evidence that fatally contradicts the official story specifically proving how the attack jet that flew tree-top level over Arlington timed perfectly with the explosion did not hit the building as reported. Naturally such a scenario proves a complex conspiracy on 9/11 every bit as much as controlled demolition of the World Trade Center. When considering a world-wide psychological black operation on this level we must also consider the counter measures that go along with it. Specifically counter-intelligence efforts otherwise known as disinformation that have been deliberately implemented to throw truth seekers off course. As far as the Pentagon attack is concerned, the evidence we have uncovered reveals beyond a shadow of a doubt that the missile theory was the result of a very calculated, deliberate, and extremely effective counter-intelligence effort. The primary results of this complex effort have been to throw us off course, cause a split in the movement (divide & conquer), and create factions that have launched furious campaigns to accept some sort of a plane impact or else avoid the Pentagon attack all together because it's too "divisive". So in essence it has been wildly successful until CIT came along with a purely skeptical approach and refused all of it while uncovering independent evidence exposing the truth. We refused to accept the official story, we refused to accept all previous theories, and we insisted on physically going to the area to find out what people on the street really saw. We intended on reporting our findings regardless of the results. In addition to contacting as many of the previously published witnesses we could get a hold of we canvassed the neighborhood on foot to find previously unknown witnesses who have never spoken with the media or authorities. No other evidence could possibly be any more independent than first-hand accounts from random witnesses that we could find on the street. As it turned out, time and time again we heard the same story from absolutely everyone we could find. They all saw a very large low flying twin-engine commercial aircraft timed perfectly with a big explosion at the Pentagon. Due to the complex topography and landscape most could not see the alleged impact point of the Pentagon and simply saw the plane and heard or saw the explosion in the distance and therefore assumed the plane must have hit as we were all told by the media and authorities. But absolutely nobody we spoke with saw 2 planes, nobody saw a small plane or drone, and nobody saw anything remotely resembling a missile. Imagine what your impression of the truth movement would be if you were a witness in the neighborhood who saw the plane but later heard about missile conspiracy theories. Those aware of our work understand how we have uncovered that the real smoking gun is the true flight path of the plane which is entirely irreconcilable with all official data, reports, and the physical damage proving the plane people saw did not hit the building. The entire body of evidence we provide is available for free on our website here. So the independent witnesses who were in the critical area right in front of the alleged impact side of the Pentagon all reported a single jet at the time of the attack however in the wrong place to hit the light poles or cause the damage to the building. But nothing at all was reported to have been witnessed on the necessary flight path to cause the physical damage. Because we have been unable to find a single piece of independent evidence for anything on the south side flight path we have logically concluded that the damage to the building was covertly implemented with pre-planted explosives similar to how they brought down the three WTC towers. For years the truth movement has sat back and theorized primarily based off the available images of the event. No comprehensive independent effort to talk with the witnesses first-hand (and provide recorded accounts) had been undertaken by the media, authorities, or the official story skeptics. People have been aware of a cover-up when considering the confiscation of all the surrounding security video tapes and they have longed for a release of this information despite the fact that it has been completely controlled by the suspect and therefore subject to manipulation. Many have considered rumors that certain unnamed alleged hotel employees had supposedly watched one of the tapes "in horror". People have hoped that these alleged individuals would reveal the truth if they could be found. For years the movement has demanded a release of these government controlled videos and lamented about getting a hold of these supposed hotel employees to find out what they saw. CIT did much better than that by providing first-hand, on-location, video-taped interviews from actual witnesses to the event in real life! Not merely people who supposedly saw a grainy security video. So now we know what people really saw. Now we know there was a plane and we know that it could not have hit the building. This is exactly what we needed to end the speculation. The witnesses were there and their stories match! They saw what happened and they prove a deception. We removed the need for guess-work, speculation, and theorizing. We went right to the source and reported it direct for you. There isn't a reason on earth for any logical skeptic to reject definitive corroborated first-hand witness accounts proving the official story false. So why has the truth movement for the most part insisted on continuing with speculation about missiles and/or remote guided 757 impact theories to counter the missile theories? Because the counter-intelligence operation worked exactly as intended. Obviously this endless debate about a false claim has served their purposes perfectly causing people to chase their tails while over-looking the hard evidence that has been uncovered in the mean time. This situation already had most people frustrated with the Pentagon attack to the point that many had abandoned researching it all together before CIT even existed. Or else it has made people who are firmly in the missile camp reluctant to entertain anything that doesn't prove a missile. The psychological operation runs so deep that some in the movement have actually chosen to attack CIT personally instead of accepting the fact that the witnesses we spoke with prove a deception. We refused to be dismissive or dogmatic and it led to the incredible amount of evidence we have obtained revealing an outcome that most didn't expect. As a result we have been forced to overcome this already convoluted and very heated debate just to get people to even look at the definitive evidence that we provide. The reality is that there is an equal amount of independent evidence for a missile as there is for a 757 impact. Zero. Considering all that we have uncovered it's clear to us how effective this missile theory counter-intelligence effort has been. Think about the source. The missile was first mentioned by Donald Rumsfeld himself in what was written off as a slip of the tongue but then it was made famous by French conspiracy author Thierry Meyssan within the first months after the event. But the most effective catalyst for this disinformation came in early 2002 with the unofficial leak of the blatantly doctored 5 frames from the Pentagon security gate camera. This incredibly effective psychological manipulation tool has been the single most over-analyzed piece of invalid government supplied "evidence" to date. It has caused the movement to be fixated on what could be discerned from the grainy ambiguous video frames as allegedly "hitting the building" while completely diverting us from the true smoking gun - the actual flight path of the plane. From then on the missile theory phenomenon took on a life of its own as the entire notion of a missile attack on the Pentagon pretty much defined the early stages of the truth movement. Naturally an eventual revolt within the movement itself would be easily predicted setting the stage for us to emerge divided. As it stands, we are headed towards the 8th anniversary of the attack and there still remains absolutely zero independent evidence for a missile and discussing the Pentagon attack at all is considered taboo in some corners. The missile theory has remained popular and the divisiveness it has nurtured caused many to shy away from the hard evidence CIT presents proving a deception in a much different way. Consider this a plea. We are asking you to remove yourself from your previous biases and look at this situation objectively. Familiarize yourself with the full body of information we provide and accept nothing less than 100% independent verifiable evidence moving forward. The 9/11 operation can no longer be considered a conspiracy theory so we should not reduce it to such by continuing to focus on speculation over evidence. Nothing that has been controlled and provided for by the government can fairly be accepted as valid evidence in any way shape or form. They aren't going to hand us a video tape proving what really happened and they certainly didn't do this when they deliberately leaked the doctored 5 frames in 2002. Obviously this was part of the plan. It's imperative that we abandon speculation in light of the fact that we most certainly do have hard evidence proving a deception. CIT will be providing an additional free resource very soon to help everyone get the most pertinent information to the media and authorities in an efficient and professional package so stay tuned for that. Please help us hyper-focus on the information that reveals this heinous crime as opposed to concentrating on distractions that cause the simple notion of 9/11 being an inside job to remain in the category of "outrageous conspiracy theories" for the masses. The north side approach is real. It has been proven. It can not be neutralized or spun. No speculation required. We have provided the evidence but we can only do so much. We need your help bringing it to light. Thanks and peace. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

If you expect everyone to do the research for you, then you will be inclined to beleive what the Rupert murduch news will tell you, even if it is contrary to what you learned in you educaton? That seems quite lazy to me; Buth here is evdence that that flight was not hijacked. Before you decide not to read it due to the site that it is posted on. Consider the fact the the black box data was prduced by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) through the Freedom Of Information Act. If that is not a credible source then you are impossible to please and not worth debating with! http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?s=7a22789dd437373d96cc8faa77b7e70f&showtopic=18405&st=0 "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Ahhh, the 'my side of the srory is, Americas side if the stroy argument'. Don't kid yourself into believing that all Americans think they way you do. There are hundreds of millions of people in north america and it is a continent of huge proportions. Many people there think like I do. Are you so nieve to think that your opinion is the only opinionin America? America is an awesome place, Australia is an awesome place, New Zealad is an awesome place, Africa and its many countries are awesome places... None of them are without their political and social problems? Maybe if some of you guys would travel more you would realise the merrit in the way other people live their lives. The standard of living in Australasia is much higher than that of those in the USA. There may be more wealthy people in the USA but those do not contribute significantly to the 'Standard'. That is the biggest problem in America. I will return to America but you can rest assured that I will most likely not live there for a period of more than a year. 'At this stage' I have no desire or reason to. Nice place to visit, but wouldn't want to live there. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Nothing is free, it cost me tens of thousands of dallars??? It is my career, an I can do with it as i please. It is going really well, and contrary to what many here have said and believe, it is a great career with great finacial reward, you just have to be preparec to 'tavel' to make it that way. I travelled to Europe, Asia, Africa and Australia before going to America. We plan on going to India, Antarcitca, South America and returning to North america as well as the other place we have visitewd in the future, what is wrong with that? I have a company, and if I take no drawings and pay myself no wages and spend 'all' of the money on the business, I do not have to pay tax. If you can't get you had around that, then there is no wonder you don't understand the mechanics of the Bush admins 'bull shit stories'. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Yes we did, We left here more than broke, We left in thousands of dollars in debt. like I said we bought 4 brand new containers, did 5 hours tunnel time, purchased 150(or so) jump tickets, got a USPA tandem rating each, along with the relevant coach rating and pilots medical etc. I did 'sell' many of my tags and spent the money9in the USA), We came with a return ticket(mandatory) and knew we would return to a good job with a great income. I am not justifying anything, I do not need to justify, I am simply pointing out that I do not owe any tax. We needed to get Leigh more than 500 tandems in order to get her the experience to work at our current dropzone. They have handicam, land in a public park next to the ocean, you need a display licence. They also have difficult (opposing) wind conditions and a cloud manual (jump through 8/8ths legally). So along with Leigh's participation in the womans' world record jump, and needing to smash out tandems, lodi was the perfect place for her to get that crucial experience. We ran at a loss, if you know tax you know what that means. no profit = no tax. We are contractors, we have a limited liability company and if we spend all of our money on skydiving, we don't pay any tax, simple! No justification, just clarification. We had a motive (or motives) to go there, but taking money home with us was never gonna happen. Have you ever purchased 4 brand new vector microns with all the optons before? along with 5 hours 1 on 1 with coaching in a wind tunnel and a world record in a matter of a few months? You don't pay that stuff off too quickly working as a skydiver in lodi let me tell you. but you have a 'hell'a' time, and make some amazing jumps. Anyway back to the conversation about the 'neo cunt' greedy fuckwits!!! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Are you saying you think they will get away with it all? I don't believe so, the one thing they 'misunderestimated', was the power of the internet. While all this 'new american century' bull shit was being schemed, you and I probably didn't even have an email address yet? I opened my first email account in 1999. When the 'project for a new american century'was being schemed, Google was being developed... who would have thought of the capabilities we have today to search information as individuals. Long gone are the days of the encyclopedia in the lounge room for your information needs. Today there are literally millions of people that want a new investigation. many countries many facets of society know thay are being lied to. The opression is handed out to a subdued and willing audience, it will take only time to heal the wounds and let common sence prevail. The truth is already prevalent, but only to those that choose to look. it is coming to a point now where the truthers are making much more sence and are acting much more rationally than the perpertrators. The perpertrators will go down (well at least some of them) and I will witness it happening, only the death of the suspects will stop this from happening, I truly hope the live to feel the ridicule. But regardless the truth will prevail. certain news items and media on the subject are getting viewer numbers in the millions. this one will not slip through. Until then I will continue to add to these archives with information ( laboriously developed by others) on the subject, and the idiots that think this was a simple terrorist attack from Osama Bin Ladin(bush's family freind) or Khalid Shaikh Mohammed or whoever, will continue to immortilise thier nieve, disrepectful (to 9/11 victims) and selfish opinions. For instance it has just been confirmed from the black box data apparenty found at the pentagon, that the flight deck door of the aircraft that the black box was obtained from, NEVER OPENED during the entire flight. Thi means the controll of the aircraft could not have been assumed by a hijacker, they would physically have to open the door to get to the flight deck. That, apparently never happened. This information was obtained by independent via thw freedom of information act from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB). and the data can be viewed via links in these pages; pilots for 911 truth "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

I did not work for money. I was compensated with plastic tags. I traded plastic tags for jump tickets, food, drink, and money. I arrived in the USA with +$20k and left with nothing. We purchased, 4 brand new containers from an american manufacturer, and spent a time in the wind tunnel and gained licences and ratings, purchased equipment and jump tickets at various dropzones, we also donated $2500 of our own money to the JFTC charity (Leigh only raised $1000 from other people, $3500 to participate). As self employed contrctors we essentially ran at a loss and therefore did not make any taxable income. You could say america benifited finacially from us being there, we spent well over $40,000 while being there. If you converted the labour I did to its finacial equivelent, I would have earned less than 1/3 of what I earn at my current job. I was already working here before going to america. We were there so my wife could smash out as many tandems as possible, she did almost 600 in 4 months, I did as many camera and fun jumps, to keep my sport parachute numbers higher than my tandem parachute numbers. We now earn a combined income of AU$160k (US$145K) now, which is considerably higher than what we would earn in our positions in america. We benifited finacially from being in america, but not with american dollars we took home, but increased income upon returning home. You insinuate that I was there to rip off your country? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

So the catholic priests that decided to sodomise children for up to 4 decades each is forgivable? as long as they say sorry it is O.K. why, if he is so close to god, did the pope not know what was going on and put a stop to the sinning? Why did it go on for so long (and continue to go on), if god is so divine that he know everything? Your beliefs are faulty to a point of being criminal. It as about time christians became rswponsable for allowing such activity to continue. If the pope or any church head is what they say theuy are, then they themselves are just as responsable as those that actually committed the crimes. Time for the litigation aganst god, he is a law breaking cunt! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

If you don't understand what people are saying, you make yourself an ass by stating you do. 'Nobody' thinks GWB himself felled the towers, he was simply a part of the plan, and far to stupid to pull off such a scam. These people (thuthers) are not just pointing the finger, they are providing evidence, intellectual and complete scientific peer reviewed journals and are gaining some serious ground (especially in the last couple of weeks if you have been watching, which I doubt), the auhorities have come to a point where they have to address the issue, and fucktard republican followers will be eating their ten gallon hats when the truth comes out in the short future. Republican followers are unmistakably selfish and repugnant people with the desire to support the welfare of no other than themselves. The republican party and its follwers (voters) are responsable for the deaths of hundreds of thousands if not millions of innocent people, they show no remorse for such behavior and deserve nothing less than a slow painful death. IMHO Rant over. Bring on your PA's, I couldn't give a shit, the right wing neo con followers are the Bane of society. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

GWB and hos croonies should be hung by thier scrotum, and all pwople that supported him should have excruciating pain inflicted onthem as a reminder of what they inadvertantly have done to millions of others. On the bright side, america has lost its stong hold on the earth and will soon have to act like the poor bums that they actually are(trillions in debt). The new american century 'plan' will not happen, and the right wing cunts that are responable for this whole mess will soon be held to trial. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

you are talking about Hundreds of industry proffesionals. How do you dismiss thier combines knowledge, rationally? They have produced peer reviewed journals and clearly explain their findings, your team of experts seem too lazy to look because, due to thier superior knowledge, refuse to consider the potential of explosives to have been used, be it thermate, tnt or any other explosives. They never even looked for explosives, it is mandatory to investigate the possibilty of explosives in such an investigation and the failure to do so, proves either incompetence or corruption. You consider yourself an engineer with a great deal of knowledege of these events and you use a completely non scientific, non credible, competely partial, and inconclusive video off 'you tube' as your evidence against the actual findings and eye witness reports. Now wouldn't this be considered an example of the pot calling the kettle balck? You video fails to address the eye witnes encounters. It mentions them but blows them off as if they are not credible, the investigation should take the observations of 'ALL' of the workers at the site, and study them. As well as any other eye witness encounters. Why were these people ignored, why Did NIST say they had never heard of any such observastions, thier work is hardly thourough, here is one individuals findings of thier report. http://www.intelresponder.com/Videos-Autoresponder/video/qFpbZ-aLDLY&feature=youtube_gdata This photo could be debated for ever more, you video you linked before said it was aluminium the was moulten, maybe so, but what of the red/orange hot steel being pulled from the rubble, you video showed thes phots but did not explain them, also the use of a simple magnet on some of the resulting dust attract many micro spheres of previously moulten steel, the thermate flakes also found found partialy combusted, in the dust collected from the WTC buldings on the day, before any clean up was initiated. Do you believe as an engineer that aluminium glowes a bright orange when falling through the air for hundreds of feet? do you also believe that organic matter freely mixes with moulten aluminium to produce this orange colour?

Shhhhhhhhh, he still beleives in father christmas, don't spoil it for him. hahahahahaha "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

What do you mean Mike? Are you asking me how such a huge amount of thermate was planted without witnesses seeing, as such a large amount of thermate would have been needed, even though you believe the building was more than capable of collapsing on its own accord without any such explosives, due to the damageed already sustained? Is that the qiestion you want me to answer? Here is another high school dropout that has no experience whatsoever the is a two bit truther with nothing educational to share; what a douche bag! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Hi, it depeds on what temperatures you will be jumping in? If it is anything below -20degC then you will need to have a windstopper or similar to keep your sensation in your fingers. I have seen too many times people that jump in substandard gloves or even fingerless gloves in minus 20 degrees celcius+, due to thier fear of not locating their deployment and cutawy handles. It is better to have gloves that are slightly thicker, than to have no sensation at all in your fingers. I always invest good money on winter gloves, and they always incorporate windstopper material. I did some very good ones from burton snowboards but now I use a Brand Called Roeckl, You might find them at an equestrian store. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

The public option is there for everybody, the private option is there for everybody. if you want private, you get private, if you are lucky enough to have an employer that provides superior healthcare plan, then you are doing well. There will still be all the options you have today, only you will not have to have a private health care plan in order to be covered. It is called caring for your country and its countrymen. Shouldn't 'everyone' be given the highest quality care available? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

for fucks sake mike, you are saying that a firefighter that fight s a fire and risks his life automatically is an expert on the mechanics of the cause of that fire? You are letting your emotion get in the way of common sence aain, i have a backbone, I have faced ridicule, personal attacks and various other insults, I have stood by my belief and debated and studied both sides of the story. I have the audacity to question this, present the recent findings and contribute to the debate. You just use the 'i'm more qualified than you' argument, claiming that because you gathered some data that you are an expert. Instead of ignoring Richard Gage and his professional comrades' questions, why not try answering them, rather than palming off thier expertise as foolishness. You make yourself the fool if you fail to include all aspects of this incident in your conclusions. Your obvious one sided, closedminded interpretaion, coupled with the emotion you would have experienced will make it very difficult for you to acknowledge any other outcome. That is why jurys are alway non partial individuals. You gathered information, you did not make the conclusions, that job was the NIST's. You should be ensuring your work was not in vein, at this stage it seems it was. The only evidence you have presented iss your self proclaimed expertise. That Nasa chart you say you had on your wall, NIST denied any knowledge of it. Does that not make you suspicious? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

dead link, whooo, I must be wrong So you still deny any knowledge of red hot moulten steel discovered weeks after the incident. Are you with the NIST with that, do you deny any steel was melted in the catyclism? You may have been there, thousands were, you were. These people generally take your side, usually based on emotion. you did your job, you gathred the information you were paid to and you made your own conclusons. This does not mean you are correct, it also does not mean the information you gathered was channeled and managed correctly and legally. In fact it is quite obvious that it wan't. It must be a hard concept for you to comprehend that the people that you were working for were directed by the perpertraotors of this attack, many thousands of people have died due to the backlash. You still do not see that your efforts were in vein as they decided_before_ you ever showed up on the scene what the out come was going to be. It would be hard to imagine and i sympathise with your position of being implicated in the conpiracy, but i truly believe that those in similar positions to yours were undoubtably, simply doing thier jobs, were oblivious to any wrongdoing and would accept the given results of your work. The one real question I ask of you is; Do you believe there were temperatures within the rubble at ground zero, greater than what is achieveable by hydrocarbon fires in an uncontrolled environment? Since you are such an expert on the matter, that is. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

You are really showing you misrepresentation ow arent you, we are actually saying, steel melted, for what reason and how is this explained. We are not saying the steel didin't melt, we are saying it did, and it shouldn't have. There is evidence of this, eye witness acounts, photographs, residue, nasa imagry and many other reasons to discuss and investigate this phenomenon. We are saying it was some form of thermate thaty casued this. You are saying that that is rediculaousn and not worthy of a scond thought, yet you portray yourself as an educated, engineer with first hand experience in the matter. Are the people in this video lying? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcqf5tL887o&NR=1 it is sure that John Gross is lying, but the eye witnesses, the nasa imagry, the multitude of evidence... Science will 'out science' faux science, and law will determine what protocol should be followed in such a situation. Just imagine the consequnece if we are right? what sdoes this implicate? obviously too much for you to comprehend, it all paints a picture that makes perfect snce to me. I know humans, and i know the truth is not always prevelant, the more apathetic we are towards our right to speak our voice, the less of a right we have to do so. Deniers need to grow a backbone and confront the fear that is obviously driving them to think irrationally and defend such obvious corruption and bigotry. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

O.k., engineer guy, keep walkng back into the corner you'll meet the wall soon. So how is refusing to acknowledge, documented, photographed, and experimented evidence, scientific and within the guidelines for investigating such a circumstance. They have failed to fulfill the legal requirement as pointed out clearly to you in many of the above posts. When you call yourself an expert, you produce an expectation to us all that you know what you are talking about, It is quite clear that you have minimal knowlwdge of usual protocol that is required for such a situation. Namely the National Fire Protection Association's, “Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations”. What do you know of this guide and what it points out as 'Mandatory' in the investigaton of an explosion? I have looked, I have read, listened, watched, looked into and I have understood. They are all based on information releasd by NIST rather than being independent. They come to the same conclusion and disregard the same information. They use the very same calculations that NIST released. How can you debunk the hypothesis of the NIST releasing a false hypothesis, by using the data from the hypothesis in question. You can't seem to get you head around the real science, why? Because you don't look, you refuse to, your emotions are in the way of your common sence. So are we truthers or conspiracy theorists? have you come to realise your hypothesis is in fact a conspiracy theory and not a scientific conclusion? Conclusions are made from observing all known possibilities, once agsin, how is your method of ignoring 'FACTS' scientific? If you so strongly believe Richard Gages observations to be Lies, as in they are making everyhting up, how do you make such an accusation without looking at or understanding what they are asking? If you do, would you mind substanciating your standpoint? You act as if it is only me that thinks this way. This forum (SC) is visited by many but contributed by many less, over time there have been many others that have asked the same questions as I have, these questions have met ridicule, mockery and disrespect. The same people with the same closed minded opinions argue the same arguments, year after year and time after time. How is that a debate? This forum is a Joke if i call you an idiot for beliving a lie, I am responable for a PA, If you call me a tin hattet fool, you are rewarded with applause. It is laughable, and you may feel confident behind all your ego ridden, self proclaimed experts, that refute the real truth yet admit to not studying the various possibilities. This Logic is quite simply, illogical. It is about high time you substanciate your viewpoint by posting your beliefs and findings. If you are only capable of stating, 'You're Wrong, I'm right and I am more qualified than you'. Why not try sounding like you actually know what it is you are talking about. I don't claim to be a scientist, I don't claim to be an engineer, I simply claim to understand, I put my viewpoint on the table and discuss it openly. You just tell me I am wrong because of the simple fact that you are more qualified than me. The problem with 'americans' is that EGO is rewarded, In most of the world it is shunned. This is how you are so far begind everyone else in the western world, yet you would like to believe you are the big brother of the world, your ego does not allow you to adapt to variation as you will never want to be seen as less experienced. Stomping your foot and turning your back is not scientific, ignoring truth is not scientific and your agument is not scientific. You Ignore peer reviewd journals, and palm them off as crap. You ignore the many industry professionals that are more experienced than you, have been more invloved than you, and make more sence than you, don't have your inflated ego, they are producing scientific, peer reviewed, non partial and well founded information. Why not start with explaining how these people are not qualified to make these observations? If you would take the time at some stage to read the peer reviewd journals posted on numerous occasions, you will find that it is the imminent result that makes the accusations, not the text, for the most part. It is NIST's refusal to discuss any other possibility other than their own singular, unlikely and unscientific hypothesis that has been manufactured to fit the description of the assumtions 'apparently' made by the GWB admin shortly after the catyclism. Your lack of understanding of what the focus of the journals are, is a testement to you not having ever read or understood thrir content. You mean the computer simulation which claims to have found the real cause behind the collapse of the World Trade Center. from

As I have always stated, i initially informed you that congress was going to be presented the evidence on 9/11 this year, that dat waschanged to october... Now it is november and there have been severeal applications to various institutes and I have posted a couple of them here for your viewing. There will be a huge amount of red tape to slice through and it will take time. These movements, actions, peer reviewed journals, freedom of information act applictions, and the announcment of a civilian open trial are of huge significance to the truth movement. Richard gage is currently finishing his asian and australasian tour. He just had very successful presentations in New Zealand and Australia. Next is japan visiting 7 cities. If you are truly interested, [url"http://www.rense.com/general80/testi.htm"]here[/url] is a transcript of the Japanese government openly discussing the origin and authenticity of the war on terror, the 9/11 attacks and whether or not to refuel US equipment in support of the war, or provide water to the civilains of afghanistan instead. as far as they are concerned this is about Afganistan civilians, not americans, and keeping them safe. They will have thier own investigation also... "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

You accused me of not knowing 'anything' about investigating an explosion. You accused me of only considering the information that has been presented by the Pro-Independant Scientific investigation followers and not considering the consiracy theory presented by the authorities. The correspondence i have posted in the thread, CLEARLY, shows that the official hypothesis has not only been considered, but that it has been proven to have failed to use the expected protocol of such an investigation. You keep evading this harsh reality, there are standards for such an nvestigstion and considering the recources that went into it, it would only be faier to assume that the standard protocol for such and endeavour would be met, and in fact pursued with dilligence and enthusiasm. The nonchalant attitude of NIST and the deniers is so inconsiderate and disgraceful, many thousands of dead and injured people, lives destroyed. What do you care? you want more death, more danger, you support corruption, you don't question half truths. I am not here to try to change your mind, I just want oyu to know how disrespectful and inconsiderate you must be to not consider some relevant, and factual evidence. As for NIST, take that up with them, I was not part of that unit, have no reason to be involved with them nor would I comment recklessly as you have about them or any other agency without having first hand knowledge of the evidence that they have and or using. Thats been done, not by me, but by much more qualified people with more enthusiasm. A few minutes on a forum talking to a brick wall ( you people) does not achieve anything other than informing you lemmings that this has not been, can not and will never be, swept under the carpet. The internet is what was overlooked in the planning of all this, nobody imagined how powerful the net would be, by now and it is the internet that has given the people to communicate and study the truth. You can dismiss all you want based on your biased and staunch, closedminded opinion. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

So why does the NIST refuse to even discuss the possibilities of they are so easy to debunk? You may have some Rupert Murdoch 'TV science for subdued americans', type debunking, but where is the scientific peer reviewed journals debunking such claims. You are foolish to continue to argue for your hypothesis, it weas compiled with false data and is not to the standardfs required to be considered complete. The methods are in place the paper work is done, it is just time and red tape in between the real truth and your faux reality and faux science. These 'debunkings' you speak of are not scientific, the popular belief is not scientific, in fact the final NIST report renders most of the arguments made by the right wing neo con follwers in here since 9/11 'wrong'. The argument you stood by only 18 months ago has been changed (by NIST) and a different outcome has now been presented. This outcome is not widly known and was not well presented in the media. It was put up for public opinion yet no public opinion has been considered. Pull your head in, you are fighting a losing battle and your integrety is in jeopardy. You know this is in an archive, how many more times will you change your belief before you decide to be honest with yourself? Do you know your (NIST) hypothesis changed only a year ago, to a considerably different outcome? This ammendment was prompted directly by the 9 11 truth movement. it was a weak attempt to ammend thier hyppothesis to fit thier desired outcome, rather than scientifically consider the most obvious reason for any building to fall so rapidly. the emmision of this consideration implies the NIST wishes to decieve the world. Physics cannot be re written no matter how much money you have, or stand to make!! "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

. So you were there on the day, What hypothesis do you consider to be the most likely? NIST has changed theirs a number of times yet, you act like they had it right from the beginning. We have been debating this for years, you claim to be 'Right' yet the hypothesis you supported so whole heartedly was ammended only a year ago to a completely different outcome. So enlighten me ( a couple of short paragraphs) with your immense knowledge of what happened that day, to what the 'primary reason', why all three buildings collapsed at virtually free fall speed through the path of greatest resistance, was? Was it the old hypothesis that you stood by in 2006 or is the new one that you stand by in 2009? Are both of them correct? You can't be right, then ammend your outcome to a 'more correct' (different) outcome and still have been right in the first place. You are not logical. You (nor NIST) have not even considered a different outcome = un-scientific. Also do you deny the existance of moulten steel days and weeks afetr the collapse like NIST does? or do you consider the many first had accounts and photographs and NASA Imagry. Did you have access to all areas of ground zero, or were you restricted to your own facility. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

Mike:Again this type statement shows what you don't know or have the education, experience or knowledge of Rescue response, recovery and post investigation as they are all separate disciplines in which it is very clear that you know nothing about. Rather than simply stating such, why not try substanciating your accusations. The fact that Nist has failed to meet the guidelines established by the National Fire Protection Association in its “Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations” mandate official agencies to investigate the possibility of explosives in such a circumstance. They are dismissing evidence that does not align with thier story, they are not responding to the easily underrstood questions as to how thier hypothesis is in fact impossible and proves them to be incompetent, corrupt and criminal. The is no wonder they are not willing to participate in discussion, but that alone incriminates them as the are moraly obliged to consider any significant evidence that comes forward. What substance do you have to your accusation? "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix