ZigZagMarquis

Yeah, there's been several threads here on DZ.com talking about the pros and cons of different types of materials used for suspension lines... my opinion, but it seems the industry still hasn't hit on a suspension line materal that has all of the Pros (dynamic, doesn't go out of trim, isn't abrasion sensative, isn't heat sensative (the going theory on the con with spectra going out of trim), low pack volume & really strong) and none of the Cons... but we digress... ------------ Polyethylene Fiber Current U.S. Polyethylene Fiber Producer: Honeywell Polyethylene Fiber — (Spectra currently produced in the U.S. by Honeywell) is one of the world's strongest and lightest fibers. A bright white polyethylene, Polyethylene fiber is, pound-for-pound, 10 times stronger than steel and up to 40 percent stronger than aramids. It floats, resists chemicals and water, and exhibits superior fiber-to-fiber abrasion. Polyethylene fibers are used in numerous applications, including police and military ballistic vests, helmets and armored vehicles, sailcloth, fishing lines, marine cordage and lifting slings, and cut-resistant gloves as well as safety apparel. http://www.fibersource.com/f-tutor/prods.htm

http://www.fibersource.com/f-tutor/aramid.htm Aramid Fiber First U.S. Commercial Aramid Fiber Production: 1961, DuPont Company Current U.S. Aramid Fiber Producers: E.I. DuPont de Nemours Inc. Federal Trade Commission Definition for Aramid Fiber: A manufactured fiber in which the fiberforming substance is a long-chain synthetic polyamide in which at least 85% of the amide (-CO-NH-) linkages are attached directly between two aromatic rings. Basic Principles of Aramid Fiber Production — Aramid is spun as a multifilament by a proprietary process developed by DuPont Company Aramid Fiber Characteristics: - No melting point - Low flammability - Good fabric integrity at elevated temperatures - Para-aramid fibers, which have a slightly different molecular structure, also provide outstanding strength-to-weight properties, high tenacity and high modulus. Some major Aramid Fiber uses — Flame-resistant clothing, protective vests and helmets, composites, asbestos replacement, hot air filtration fabrics, tire and mechanical rubber goods reinforcement, ropes and cables, sail cloth, sporting goods. ---------- Hmmm... engineer here, not chemist... , but HMA doesn't sound to be exactly the same thing as Kevlar... however, if HMA has similar "dynamic" qualities to Kevlar (i.e. is less dynamic ("stretchy") then steel cable) then I could see where it wouldn't cause, but could exacerbate a situation where one part of your canopy loaded before the rest.

Oh yeah... one more thing... I'll go look it up too to see what Precision puts on the Fusion... but are those lines Kevlar??? Okay... from Precision's web site... those lines are... "High Modulus Aramid fiber suspension lines..." Okay, more stuff to go study up on... Ah, the bane of being a rigger.

Okay... you daisy-chained those lines after recovering your cut-away and it wasn't packed that way, right??? JUST KIDDING! Good photos... Interesting that it appars all of the lines failed at the attach points, as in the tab is still in the larks head and its the tab that ripped away from the canopy... looks that way in all pics but one; the one where you're holding a line for a close-up and its obvious the line failed. Anyway, my SWAG is that portion of the canopy / line group loaded before the rest... how exactly that came about, you're guess is as good as mine. Are you in the habbit of looking over your shoulder and watching the bag leave at deployment? ... again, something you can get away with a million million times, but maybe just once can cause a problem. What did you say your wingloading was??

Brakes were still stowed, slider wasn't collapsed upon recovery. I'm guessing the most likely thing, if it were a packing issue is that I might have pushed the slider off of the stops when I was rolling it, even though I'm very careful about that. We'll see, though, I'll call precision shortly to see if they wanna look at it. Body position???? You didn't dump head-down... in a sit... on your side... where you significantly loaded one riser / line group before the other? Packing????? When you pack... or when your packer packs for you... you don't wrap the risers / lines around the bottom of the reserve pack tray (rather then routing them down the sides all the way to the bottom of the main pack tray like one should) to where one riser / line group may "hang up" on the reserve pack tray causing the other to load first? ... I've seen folks do this and get away with it a million times, but there's that one time where it may go wrong... a few years ago someone had their reserve pack tray ripped off the container when a main riser / line group hung on the bottom of the reserve pack during deployment.

Quite possibly it was a packing error... most likely you'll never know for sure what caused it exactly; unless by some chance someone videoed your deployment, there could be some clues there. If you feel you're still "inexperienced" when it comes to packing, have someone watch you (a rigger... a more experienced jumper) and see if you're doing something fundamentally wrong... if you were using a packer; if you pay a packer, you take your chances... You say you did a controlability check before doing your emergency procedures... and also noted that the slider wasn't all the way down... but, when you recovered your trash, were both breaks still stowed, or can you say for sure you unstowed them? ... was the slider collapesed? (as in... the main didn't get packed with the breaks unstowed and/or the slider collapsed, did it?)... I've seen that happen and it can cause what you've described. send the blown up canopy back to the manufacturer for their opinion... you may or may not get much from them other then it will take this and that to fix it or its totaled. Good luck.

Grue, glad you're okay... you've got a "no shit there I was" story you'll tell for a very long time... Anyway... Et All, This is the second story in a few days where a relatively low time jumper has posted relating catistropic canopy failure and seems a bit surprised that it happend! I mean, good on them for posting and seeking knowlege, but what's going on out there in the skydiving verse that may be giving the impression to some of the younger folk that these things don't really happen... they do! ... and, IMO, after such an occurance, I don't think a person is entitled to their money back and, if is a player, with very very very few exceptions, if you're an up-jumper, if you pay a packer, you take your chances, deal with it, or pack your own trash. * now, where did I leave my flame suit? *

About a year ago, I experienced basically the same thing on a reserve repack with a PD160R in a J3K that was in need of a repack after a reserve ride. The preceeding cut-away, reserve deployment, reserve ride, landing etc. was uneventful, but when inspecting the reserve, I found that both the left and right steering lines were "fuzzed up" like jumper03 describes and like many have said here, most likely due to encountering the hook side of the Velcro on the free-bag; either on deployment or during a previous I&R. To be on the safe side, the reserve was returned to PD with the request for an inspection / recommendation / replacement of the steering lines. At that time, PD contacted me, as the rigger that sent them this canopy, and agreed that the steering lines should be replaced, but that they'd rather replace the entire line-kit rather then just replacing individual lines since "its a reserve". I'll skip the interlude, and cut to the chase, which they did, an entire line kit on this reserve, but at a significantly reduced price. Anyway, just a bit of 411 on a similar experience I had. On a similar, but related topic... I kinda like the way R.I. and Infinity does the hook/pile on the free-bag as opposed to others... their set-up seems less likely to have lines encounter the hook during packing and deployment, IMO.

Jagoz, IMO... the ROBO Z and TURBO Z line of canopies are basically, CRAP. They do exactly what you describe... they're "un-landable". I've got sevearl jumps on varrious TURBO Z's for varrious reasons and what I experienced was they're un-perdictable when it comes to landing... sometimes they'll flare, plane-out and land just fine while others in comparable conditions and comparable landing technique, they'll plant you or roll off to one side or the other. Awhile ago, I jumped at a DZ where the local gear dealer pushed the TURBO Z and I witnessed sevearal jumpers experience the same frustrations as you with these canopies. In fact, I have a friend that I'm sure jumping a TURBO Z was a major factor in driving her out of the sport... after several bad landings and 3 trips to a hospital (2 concusions and a badly spraned ankle) in less the 250 jumps. Hey, like I said, all just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt and I'm sure someone will flame me, but get a different canopy is my 2 cents. Personally, I've always been a fan of the PD line of canopies. In my opinion, PD's canopies, no matter what their design characteristics / goal is and/or anything else anyone has to say, they LAND! Same thing, different words, if you find yourself or hear someone say something like, "I like my canopy except for the landings", think to yourself, "What am I saying (or what are they saying)! A parachute, preferable your main, is there to get you to the ground in one piece and able to jump again! Why am I (or they) jumping something where the landings suck!!??!" I'm sure there are other newer manufacturers / canopies that hold a similar rep. Hang onto that ROBO Z though, it will make a good car cover and a good conversation piece to hang up on the wall at your 25 years in the sport party.

I thought it was. I was just a bit surprised you hadn't heard about it before - the incident had massive press attention and has been discussed a lot here and in various other places. Well, seeing as how the incident originally happened in the UK... back in 03... and I'm in SoCal, eh, sorry, my bad, if I had heard the details then, I had forgotten them by now. Anyway, I'm trying to think of suicides in the sport of skydiving that were either confirmed to be so (e.g. a "note" was found) or had a high degree of likelyhood that it was a suicide. I can think of two. One was at Cal City probably about 10ish years ago now when we had a first jump student basically "un-hook" (the chest strap was found undone along with one leg strap -- B12 disconnected) themselves from the harness after getting out on a static line jump and fell to their death. Post-incident investigation found that the deceased had a history of suicide attempts, had a "rug knife" in her heavy winter coat pocket, the same coat she wanted to wear on the jump, but it was too bulky to wear under the student rig (it was winter in so much as winter happens in the high desert), the assumption being she intended to use it to cut herself out of the rig and the first jump instructor recalled her asking questions along the lines of how hard it would be to get out of the harness once under canopy during FJC. Witnesses saw her fall from the harness well after getting open, so the conclusion that she unhooked herself and it wasn't opening shock was reinforced... she also took off her helmet and radio and dropped it (was the conclusion) before undoing her harness as her helmet was found well away from her body. The second was several years back at Perris when Harley committed suicide. I wasn't there, so let me caveate this with that, but the way I understand it, he got on a load and at about 3K either opened the door, told people on the airplane about a note he left somewhere, or told folks about a note and opened the door and got out... either way, he got out, didn't pull and later a note was found is what I recall hearing about the incident. So, suicides by jumpers within the sport are not unheard of. I suppose what it sounds like in this case that it wasn't a suicide would be the afore mentioned "tampering" with the gear... cut main bridle and cut reserve risers... I suppose a jumper commited on suicide might do that to one's own rig and not leave a note to make it not look like suicide, but not ever having been in that state of mind myself, nor an expert on such psychological things, I guess I'd have to say my lay opinion would be "unlikely." Hopefully they'll figure it out. I'm sure the pros at Scottland Yard are on it, but obviously having trouble. I'd suppose an avenue would be to determine who and for what reason had "motive" and then sweating them or folks around them for info.

Apart from the severed main bridle and severed reserve risers? No, there was no tampering Sorry, was that in there, up-post somewhere, and I just missed it? ... my bad. Anyway, if that were the case, yep, that would do it...

Anyway... Just currious, but... Why is it Stephen's death is considered / continued to be investigated as a potential murder?? Were there signs that his gear was tampered with? Suspected motive on someone's part? Threats against his life??

herrober, I'd assume you've shown it to a rigger or three and/or some more experienced jumpers? They may have a theory or two. Could you post some pictures of the damage? Like most have said, it could be a lot of things. You may or may not ever know the exact cause. What caught my eye reading your original post and the reason I decided to reply, is that you sounded surprised that it happened. Yes, canopies do rip, lines break and malfunctions do happen; you'd best be prepared for it mentally.

Silly question... are you closing the main flaps in the correct order? ... Bottom (yeah, I know that's where the main closing loop is on a V3)... Top... Right... Left... and not Left... Right?? Anyway... looking in the V3 manual, there's pictures of V3's with a few wrinkles in the area you describe / it looks like what you describe... sounds to be a cosmetic problem and probably really to worry about. ... as for Reserve Packing Tips... read the manual, also, check this (see encl)...

Philly says Sammy retired from GE... doesn't know what he's up to now.

Yep... and yep, I got the CD. Thanks much! Looks like there is a lot of good gouge in there.

http://www.pia.com/piapubs/TSDocuments/ts104-13%20Canopy%20volume%20study_1995.pdf Look it up. Awh, come on Mikey... its much much more entertaining when someone takes some quick answer from someone else here rather then call or contact the maufacturer and later gets all pissed off because the gouge they got was bad... blah blah blah... stupid rig... can't fit the Raven 4 into that SSeTZZR (Super Small extra-Tiny Zoom Zoom Rig) like someone on DZ.com said I could!

Bob Celaya maybe??

Not all riggers will laugh at you. At least until after you have left.

YUENGLING!!! Screw Max!!! Mail me that case of brew!!! I haven't had Yuengling since I left PA...

... I'd rather poke myself in the eye with a blunt stick then hear "Jump - by Van Halen" or "Freefallin' - by Tom Petty" set to a 1st Jump Video ever again!!!!!

Interesting... I too recently opened a Jav where the previous rigger had stowed the reserve bridle the same way.

Bit o'triva... Q: Why do they call them "french links"?? Had someone ask me that at the DZ last weekend. A: Because a lot of them are made in France! ... they didn't believe me until I found a set... and a magnifying glass... that were engraved as such.

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CMan, This too is what I was taught... "short side towards the canopy, long side on the risers." On the reserve, I was told that its not necessary, but its a nice touch to alternate the barrels, one in-board, one outboard, side-side, on the front and rear risers, while maintaining the short side of the line towards the canopy. The theory being not to have the barrels laying on top of each other in the reserve pack tray if the reserve risers / links should wind up perfectly on top of each other.