ZigZagMarquis

You could just hook the reserve up to a set of main risers, pack it like it was a main and bag it in a regular main bag / bridle / pilot chute without hooking the bag/bridele to the canopy... bag the canopy, stow the lines, close the container in the normal manner... jump, deploy, chase your bag & pilot chute down... ... it would work.

Aren't there like gator ponds around Z-hills?? What do they say during the night-jump briefing about that???

QuoteI have been struggling for months on getting the canopy in the bag.... and with the help of everyone's advice and patience, I put the canopy in the bag on the first try finally!!!!!!! Quote Good on ya!

I don't know if they still do it, but "back in the day" when PD used to do the "PD Tour" they would have reserves hooked up on main risers that you could put into a rig... theirs or yours... as the "main" and go jump it. I'm not sure if this is still included as part of PDs demo program or not? Might be worth a call and asking them?? oops... someone up-post already said basically that... Thing about PD doing this that I can't remember how it workes was (is) none of their reserves has a main bridle/bag attach point... they must add one for their demo reserves... becaue it wasn't "free bagged", although that would work. --- break --- break ---- This suggestion is just plain stupid. Ditto!

Zig on Skydiving and the word "safe"... Personally, I try to not use the word "safe" when talking about skydiving. You can prove pretty much anything you want with statistics and one of the ones that is a favorite of a lot of DZOs / Student Checker-iners / Phone answering folk is, "The drive too and from the DZ is more dangerous." The thing with skydiving is it can be pretty binary; it goes really well most of the time, but if it goes badly, it can get really bad really quick. How does that saying about aviation go? Aviation isn't inheriently dangerous, its just that, even more so then the sea, it is unforgiving of any inattention, incapacity or neglect. Having worked arround and tested miltary aircraft for most of my adult life AND been around skydiving for awhiles now... I've learned that any incident or mishap is comprised of a chain of events that can be shown in retrospect (mishap investigation). Usually that chain will consist of 3 or 4 events, maybe just 2... some would argue that in skydiving, the first link in that chain is stepping off the aircraft itself. The goal is to develop good habbits that keeps that chain from building on you where the outcome is "serious injury or DEATH!" While I'll say that no one "deserves" to die skydiving, at the same time it is not un-real to point out in an incident a person's inattention, incapacity or neglect that contributed to building that chain that lead to their incident (serious injury or death). Someone doing everything right and still being killed is rare, I know of one myself, but its still rare. ... I'm not so sure its a sign of "disrespect" for DZs to use the word "safe" when it comes to promoting jumping... they ceratinly wouldn't attract as many customers if they were all "Black Deathy" about it on their websites and in advertisements, now would they?

800' !!!??! 2nd jump, I'd imagine it was training, but sounds more like a combat drop... They probably made you take a reserve too didn't they!!!

If someone on your DZ doesn't want to cough up the $50... what do they do? What if they get someone on the DZ to "help a brother (or sister) out" and show them how to pack for free... or beer... how's that handled. The reason I ask is, years ago at a DZ I used to frequent, the (then) "cheif instructor and asst cheif instructor" started this whole "pay us $5 for a packing lesson" thing with the up and coming students. Some students paid them $5 per lesson, some didn't... those who didn't learned by getting us up jumpers to help them out for free mostly (in a few cases there were, well, cases), but it caused some interesting "strife" between "them" wanting money for packing lessons and "us" willing to help an a newbie out for free cause that's what someone did for us. Its not like we were saying, "Don't pay them the $5, we'll show you for free (in hopes of some beer)", but its not like we turned them away if they asked us to give them a hand, "No, you have to go as them and pay them their $5" either.

Ya know... that's got me thinkin'... I know I did my second night jump on a Sabre 150 onto an unlit DZ on a no-moon night... oh, I forgot to add, "No shit there I was" before that... but really, no shit. I can't remember what canopy I had on my initial night jump... my PD190 or if it was the Sabre 150?? I know most of my night jumps are on my Sabre 170. I haven't jumped my Sabre-2 170 at night...

I had probably 800 - 900 jumps before I did my initial night jump. I know folks that did do their first night jump with significantly less total jump numbers... different era... . For me the long wait had to do with being aprehensive about the whole situation and that most DZs don't "just schedule" night loads, rahter they do them when they have enough people with C-Licenses wanting to get their D-License asking to do night jumps, then they get around to scheduling it. I finally got to a point were my desire to get my D-Liscence out-weighed my aprehension. Then it was a matter of getting on the first available night loads at a DZ I was comfortable jumping at night that I could score. I don't think I really felt I was "ready" to do night jumps until I had, oh, 4 or 5 night jumps under my belt... ... at that point it was, "Okay, I can do this, I'm not just "lucky."" Then it got to be "fun" for awhile. We used to do night clear and pulls for as long as we could keep the aircraft going or 1a.m. which ever came first... we did this a couple of times at Cal City. All told, I think I have like about 20 night jumps now... haven't done one in probably 3 to 4 years. Sometimes I get the "jones" to want to go do one, but then I sit down and have a beer and the feeling wears off... I still feel that night jumps should remain in the BSRs for getting your D-Liscence, but with the proliferation of higher & high performance canopies, things aren't as forgiving trying to land at night... i.e. significantly reduced or lack of depth perception... then say if you were landing a big F111 canopy. So, making sure you have your accuracy and flare down is probably even more important then before.

It can be, but it would take TIME. You wouldn't accomplish it in a load or two, but if most all of the experienced jumpers walked in and sang a bar of Alice's Resturant... ... I mean, if all of the experienced jumpers started sitting put until say 1.5K or 2K and then removed their belts, arguements along the way aside, it would catch on. For instance, remember up-post I said the when we used to jump at AV the DZ policy was belts on until 2K AGL? Well, that started out a little rough, but the up-jumpers got on board with it and pretty soon everyone did. New jumpers and students that came up under that policy knew it from the begining and followed the example of the up-jumpers. Another thought... when I got into jumping back in 93, here in SoCal (Cal City, the Bob & Judy era), the Perris Crash wasn't as "long ago" as it is now. I can recall getting on the plane as a student and shortly there after as a low low timer and, generally speaking, the attitude of the exprienced folks was "everyone get there seat belts on!... helmets strapped down if not worn... where's my seat belt, I need a seat belt"... in the past few years, myself included , is that on the odd takeoff when the plane is full and you have to share a belt at the end of the bench, ah, I'll skip it (again, gonna fix that) or just to hook the belt around oneself and not really tighten it down... bad habbit to let oneself and others around you develop. In short, I've seen a bit of a "creep" away from taking seatbelts in jump planes "seriously" now that the Perris Crash is getting (someone help me here, the incident pre-dates me in the sport) by what, 15 years? Also, this discussion makes me think of "how good an idea is it" the seat belt config I've seen in some PAC750s... where you're straddling a bench down the sides of the aircraft, sitting nut to butt (or bush to butt, as applicable ), "tabogin style", with a short belt that's just looped through the leg strap or main lift web on one side of you; not across your lap & through your harness... hmmm???

Ron, good discussion. Remember, Cypres doesn't ARM until 1500' AGL, which I'm sure you know, just posting it incase someone does know that happens across this thread... not sure about Vigil or Astra. Also, a good discussion about panic; very sorry about your friend. Also true, there's probably a lot of newer jumpers out there that haven't gotten out low... I'd venture to guess there are more then a handfull of jumpers with hundres of jumps that have never gotten out lower then tweleve-five. Personally, I've gotten out above 2, but below 3... closer to 3 then 2... on my main, and would again; may not like it, but would. Anyway, as it relates to seatbelts... I don't think keeping your belt on much above 3K even if the door is closed serves much use... unless you're in really bad turbulance, then you ought to consider riding the plane down... I have... ummm... considered it and rode the plane down

Good discussion. As to not drift the thread too much... let me try to relate this back to the original question as to when to remove ones seatbelt in a jump plane... A couple of more thoughts in that regard: 1. Taking one's seatbelt off doesn't necessisarily equate to a mad rush to the back of the plane to spread out. 2. [sarcasim] I'm sure, as the Limit Goes to Infinity, an arguement could be made that we should stay helmeted up and belted in (5 points) until the green light goes on... [/sarcasim] ... okay, one more... 3. In any aircraft emergency, the first and formost thing to do is sit tight and listen to the pilot... however... IMO, in the case of something catastropic (wing falls off, smoke and flames in the cockpit, mid-air with another aircraft and the one I'm in is shedding major parts)... if I'm next to the door, I'm gonna get out and take my chances with my reserve say anything 800' to 2K... above that, main... again this applies only to something CATASTROPIC... example... I've got 4 friends that un-assed themselves from a burning Queen Air at a thousand feet; they all went MAIN (most familiar handle and all), fortunately, it was back in the day of big F111 and not the snivelly canopies of today... ... can't do that with your seatbelt on above 1K. Again, wear your belts for takeoff. If they don't mind hearing buckels come undone at 1K, then they don't mind hearing buckels comeing undone at 1K, doesn't mean its right, just means it is. If the DZ says you're to keep them on unitl 2K, thems the rules.

Well... in this case... they were about 100%! Anyway, faulknerwn, thanks for sharing, that's a good one!

... and there you have it... its "Sangiro's World -- His Way or the Highway"... thank you for having the stones to admit it openly and not on PM backlash. I'm cool with this now.

Good point Jan... I've been jumping at Cal City too long...

typically, should be an hour or two, depends on the student(s)... also, typically... should be free... or cost no more then a CASE OF BEER.

Good question... Well, if its routed through your chest strap during takeoff, its not going to do YOUR head much good if the plane goes in... however, for my sake and the rest of the folks on the plane, if someone isn't going to wear their helmet for takeoff, I'd rather see them route it through their chest strap, so, in the event of a crash it doen't become a missile that could hurt someone else... especially if its a camera helment which tend to have more mass.

Anyway, most DZs I've been to, you keep your belt on until 1K AGL. After that, you can take your belt off and loosen up a bit & crack the door if necessary. Years ago, while jumping at Apple Valley, the DZ policy was no moving around until 2K AGL though. ... because at AV the the field elevation was almost 3K MSL and they were running an A-90 King Air without wing extensions and the pilots wanted the extra buffer in case something sh*t itself after takeoff... fortunately that never happened except at altitude... ... but that's a different story.

Guys, your good discussion of helmets on for takeoff and seatbelts is going to get deleted if its not moved from the incident forum... just my 2 cents.

Feedback: "This place is an "F-ing" Joke." That's an opinion of DZ.com I've heard from more then one member and am starting to form that opinion myself. Is this a place for skydivers to discuss things, including speculation, or is it "Sangiro's World -- His Way or the Highway?" Suggestion: Volunteers or not, the moderators are editing, altering and deleting people's posts too much.

Para Gear? Don't know what their shipping will be like to Brazil though...

ha ha... sticks and stones.

I don't think you read what I quoted from PM's she sent me. She had a lack of confidence in her instructor before I EVER came in to the picture. Just my 2 cents... then why don't you keep your discussions with her along those lines in the PMs and off the board? ... and, have you ever done a SL jump yourself?

What he said... the "my DZ can beat up your DZ" stuff should really be kept to the Bonfire... ---- back on Topic ---- GPFlyer, "Back in the day", I went through a modified Static Line program that Bob Celaya used to run at Cal City. Your first 5 jumps where static line jumps and then the remaining 7 were linda like the old AFF program from Level 4 on. Anyway, on your first static line jump, you'll get out of the airplane (the exit will varry depending on what kind of aircraft they use), arch and the static line will "pull" the main for you... either direct bag or pilot chute assist... ala "military airborne" style. After that, you'll deal with any emergencies if they happen and pilot your canopy back to the landing area and land it with or without the help of a radio... Don't worry... They'll cover everything you need to know in training. Let us know how it goes. It'll be fun!

Kim, Have you ever done a static-line jump yourself?