ZigZagMarquis

I hope someone in a position of authority had a quite chat with these folks. This is completely unacceptable behaviour, even if they are paying alot of money to the dropzone. Possibly, but doubtful... ... while not all teams are like that... I've encountered similar 4-Way Team "Attitude" in the past too, usually you just avoid it and shrug it off. No need to let them ruin your fun.

That's what I was trying to say too, sorry if I didn't get my point across correctly. Its just difficult sometimes to do that all the time... some days, going up and doing some simple 2 and 3 ways with a bunch of low timers is way cool and I have not problem doing it for free (to them... buy my own slot and don't expect a "tip")... but other times I'd rather go jump with my buddies is all. Even doing the occasional "free" coach jump can get you on the "worng side" of someone who's "making a living" doing this... but that's DZ politics which is a whole different subject...

I think you've answered your own question given the research you've done and the info you've found. IMO, you've hit the nail on the head when you said, "...For obvious reasons, the placement of the chest strap is more important for women than for men. The driving factor here is comfort...", search the forums, there's lots of threads that contain discussions of "above, below or over top" when it comes to where women like their chest strap on their rig... so, unless you're an "above", "below" or "over top of" gal... ergo, the high, medium or low placement you've noted... after that, what's your expectation when you have your rig on and all cinched down ready to go out the door as opposed to where things wind up after opening? Ever look at your handles & chest strap after opening, they're not at the same place, so what does this do now to your "comfort" desires when it comes to where your chest strap is in relation to your breasts?

Go to the PIA convention... if you cannot do that... PM CouncilMan, he's with the PIA You're right, if you're purchasing a custom rig, you have every right for it to fit to your satisfaction; maybe other (women) are more easily satisfied then you are though? So, maybe its not as big an "ax to grind" to them as it seems to be to you? Although, again, if you're unhappy, you certainly have the right to pursue satisfaction. So, what do you think the proper placement of the chest strap is and what do you think the factors are in determining it should be? Discuss that with the manufacturer of the rig you're choosing until you're at a point where they understand you and will build a rig for you that you're happy with... I would be interested in hearing what you find out. Even though there are more men in the sport then women... there are many many lady jumpers out there of varrying shapes and sizes, that, frankly, I cannot believe that there is a systemic problem as you pose... rahter, not to say your problem / concern isn't real, but I think it falls into the same catagory as "its hard, but not un-doable, for rig manfacturers to fit a custom built rig to folks, male or female, that are in the upper or lower 5% of the "norm"... it just takes more work on the part of the purchaser working with the manufacturer." So, in short, yes, I think your concerns are real... yes I think you deserve a rig that fits to your satisfaction, but no I don't think chest strap placement in relation to the fact that women have breasts and men don't is a systemic problem in the industry / sport. If you want to call me an arse for my comments up-post, okay, there's room for that, but what Sparky said was damn funny and I was just jumping on the band-wagon... doesn't make it okay, but I still think it was funny... sorry if you took it at your expense, wasn't meant that way... since when did skydiving go all PC????

Umm, don't be so sure of yourself... I've been in a C206 many many times, safely, with 5 jumpers and a pilot.

hmmm... someone who's been around longer then me, please check me on this, but hasn't 4-way and, thus, the dive-pool been around since the days when Cessna's were used mostly and not Twin Otters??? ... i.e. one may say we're "spoiled" by turbines these days??? I guess a team could refuse to compete where a Beech 99 was being used, but its not like they have a right to compete nor a right for the jump plane to be an Otter??

Here ya go...

Jan, I must be getting old, ... I can't remember what the up-roar in 2000 may have been to get that turn-out... can you refresh my memory?? Thanks in advance.

You're right... the "back in the day" solution of transitioning from a student to an up-jumper may not have been the best since you kinda had to muddle through until you racked up a number of jumps before people would jump with you, along the way, maybe you got bored and/or developed bad RW habbits... as opposed to today's solution of being able to get coaching, but then having to shell out extra bucks... they both have their pros and cons... nothing is free.

ouch... actually, in seriousness, I was agreeing with you for the reasons you just noted!!!

You mail the order from and a topless picture to me and after I make detailed calculations I advise the manufacture where to place the chest strap. DAMN!!! That's even better then my idea... I guess that's why Sparky is more "experienced" than I... Anyway, since this is a topic that comes up again and again... like somehow we keep discovering and re-discovering that women have boobies... ... that we ought to pose to the PIA & Manufacturers out there that when building a "woman's rig", instead of a chest strap, it ought to include an integral "bra" with appropriate measurement / cup-size as part of the harness in lou-of the chest strap...

Although I hope its not $97 across the board at all DZs for someone that's just completed AFF to get some coaching, you bring up a valid point... I too have brought up the point that in the last 10 years or so it seems "the sport", DZOs, USPA, some jumpmasters... not sure which, so please insert whom ever / what ever you think correct... have tried to "squeeze just a little more money" out of folks getting into the sport. However, look at it from another point of view... when I got into the sport just 13 years ago, it was 9 or 12 jumps to get "cleared to jumpmaster oneself" but then you needed 20 jumps to get your A-License. This was "grey area" that was discussed a lot back then; what to with these jumpers that some would say are still students, but didn't need to be under the direct supervision of a (as defined then) jumpmaster or instructor. The discussions ranged from how not to loose folks from the sport at this point, to whether or not it was a good thing some folks were rippin' through a 9 or 12 jump program at a big DZ in 2 or 3 days, to the "fatal forties"; remember that?? At the DZ I came up at, this time was filled with a couple of "no pressure jumps" where you would still rent a student rig (rip-cord) and go up and basically do a solo, bore a hole in the sky, be no kiddin' open and in the saddle by 3.5 and navigate oneself back to the student landing area and land without being on a radio... a not so bad thing to do and a great confidence builder IMO. Then you'd do a gear transition where a jumpmaster would train you up on a two handled system and go up and jump with you. After that, you were set-loose upon the DZ to go rent gear from the gear store across the way and make one's way in the world... which usually meant deciding on what gear to buy while you rented from them and going up to manifest and asking them to ask on the PA if there was anyone who wanted to go do a 2-Way with a low-timer and show them some stuff (kidding aside, fact is if you were a gal, this was easier for you then if you were a guy). Anyway, this is how one progressed through that grey area the the DZ I learned at... not all that bad IMO, but maybe not as good as it could be; I mean, certainly some room for things to be hit or miss. I'm sure other DZs did better or worse jobs, but like I said, it was a topic of discussion in those days. So, some enterprising jumpers came up with Skydive University, remember that... don't get me wrong, great idea to take low-time jumpers and hook them up with "coaches" to go train them up on RW skills one-on-one right out of the gate... and get paid for it too. Then USPA came along with the 20-Jump program... and what is it now, a 25-Jump program (I admit it, I'm guilty of not reading the SIM here lately)... to get low timers all the way to an A-License working with a jumpmaster or a coach. The up side being that gray area of yesteryear being gone, the down side the newbie's of today having to shell out more money to the DZ until they can reach the point of relative independance where they've got a License and their own gear. *sigh* "Nothing is for free" is one of my favorite sayings, as in there's alwasy an up-side and a down-side to every situation. Personally, I don't like seeing low-timers having to continue to shell out bucks to get a coach to jump with them and am willing to "give back" a bit and go jump with them without making them pay me or my slot... however, I'll also admit that I'm not in the mood to always go do that at a moments notice; as in my buddies may be around and we'd like to go do hot 4-way or multi-point 16-way or what-not... ... so, what I'm saying, is its not an easy thing... either you pay up-jumpers to jump with the low-timers so you can expect that there will be coaches there in the wait when the low-timers want to jump, the up-side for them "coaching avialable"; the down-side being they have to shell out more bucks. I think the USPA has maybe backed or loosened up a bit by saying that any D-Licensed skydivere can be a coach... and what is it, the S&TA has to also approve... anyway, as a means of reducing the cost to the low-timer. As in, the D-Licensed jumper to choose to take the low-timer up and jump with them and go over that level's TLOs without getting paid for it and/or picking up their own slot too, but then you get push-back from the other jumpmasters or coaches that DO want to be paid that you're cutting into their "money" by doing it for free and/or the DZ could still charge them and pocket it... I've seen both happen... Anyway, not an easy problem. Again, I'm glad I came up awhiles back where it was less complicated. I got out of student status what I still think is really the objective... how to save one's life... how to deal with emergencies (malfunctions) or unusual situations (line twists, slider half-way up, collapsed end cells, etc.)... and how to navigate oneself under canopy to a landing you'll walk away from... all the rest is gravy; if you wind up staying in the sport, you've got hundreds if not thousands and years more jumping to learn what, again my opinion, the USPA has tried to tack onto the end of the student progression... hey, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm just saying that recognize that even after you normalize it for today's prices, someone getting into the sport today is going to pay more then someone who got into it when I did or before; in short the upside, they get more training beyond the "save your life" essentials, the downside, they spend more money... Pick Your Poision...

Good Gawd! $3000 to get to an A-License!! I'm glad I came up a long time ago when it was about $1200 for me to get off of student-status and my fir... err... initial rig only cost me $3000 for a new container, new main, new reserve... AADs weren't all the rage then... Ms.A, you may want to run the numbers on some other SoCal DZ's, I'd be interested to know if they're all that expensive. Anyway, the sport getting more expensive is definitly a reason why a lot of people don't get into it. It always has been and probably always will. The illusion that DZOs actually make money off of us up-jumpers is basically un-true... the profit margin on them selling us jumptickets can't be more then a few bucks each... the profit margin they make from us / they probably make more from us at the gee-dunk and selling us googles, rubber bands, gloves, etc. then on jumptickets. I'd sure like to go back to the days when I started and only paid $16 for a ride to altitude when I got off student status and had my own rig... other, older-timers, will probably quote prices cheaper, but either way, its probably not going to happen anytime soon...

ccq, I guess I wasn't one of the apathetic, but rather one of the paranoid, since "yes" I remember the proxy fight of a few years ago and "yes" I was one of those who voted against it... although I'm still unsure if it was even "legal" for the board to have the membership vote "yea" or "nay" to change the rules in that manner... anyways, if y'all are going to "try again", what do you pose be done to cure the "apathy" problem and get the membership involved and disspell the "paranoia" that its just a "power grab" on part of the BOD? --- break --- break --- Onto a couple of comments Phead made that I'd like to pull a few threads on... Having never been a regional director myself (nor do I think I'd ever want to be)... I'd have to agree that appearances are that its a thankless job... and that a regional director would have to be independently wealthy to visit all the DZs in his or her region frequently... at this time, I'll note that I'm in the Western Region and, while I haven't always, I have voted for the current and preceeding two regional directors out here... However, it has (and continues to) irk me that the only time you seen the regional director or someone running for the BOD is around election time when they come around the smaller DZs with a stack of ballots and envelopes trying to drum up the vote... for them. Its fun to take a ballot and say something like, "Sure I want to vote... I'm going to vote for

In another thread, MJO said: ... I thought I'd spin this off into another thread, sorry if ya'll disagree that it shouldn't have been, but, sorry, I must have been sleeping... but what Lawsuit are we talking about here?? If there's a thread on it already, sorry, my bad, just lock this one and point me towards it... we're not talking the Hawks vs. DeSantis / USPA one here are we???

Ya know, they don't have to transition from student-status to free-flying... nor given the impression that's the way it should go... students can get off of student-status and get into RW, but hey, I'm just being old-school...

ooops... thought you meant Single Operating System, not Skydivers Over Sixty... was wondering why you'd want to do a record attempt with all folks wearing a Single Operating System rig...

jojo... good investigation there to clear yourself... problem is, you shouldn't have to... I wish some up-jumper folks out there would get it through their head that, If you pay a packer, you take your chances.... its not a guarantee that you won't have a problem with your main pack-job, its just a guarantee that you don't have to pack it yourself.

Maybe... but I'm leaning towards, "doen't much matter", as so long as you stow the brakes below the guide ring and not above ... have you checked your owner's manual for more information??? Also, a bigger thing to worry about is what you do with that extra brake line after you stow the brakes... check this: http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/ControlSysMalf.PDF ... or, go here: http://www.performancedesigns.com/canopyinfo.asp ... and scroll down to the bottom of the page -> Articles -> Control Systems Malfunctions Information Sheet.

... I'll draw y'all a picture when I have time later, when I'm home from work...

It used to be all of them. But then skydiving went from being a sport to a recreation. Next they will have valet parking, serve Perrier between loads and day care for the kiddies. Yeah, its a bummer, the only time you see "boobies" anymore on the DZ is when some gal is breast feeding...

It will protect your rig from the elements but as for security I don't think so. They will just be able to steal everything in on neat package. Not if you chained your pet Pit-Bull or Rotweiller to it while at the DZ... No dogs or kids allowed on the DZ.

Yes, for a D-License in the US / USPA, you need to do 2 Night Jumps; 1 Solo, 1 RW. You do not need to do a night jump to get a C-License.

It will protect your rig from the elements but as for security I don't think so. They will just be able to steal everything in on neat package. Not if you chained your pet Pit-Bull or Rotweiller to it while at the DZ...