ZigZagMarquis

That rabbit foot wasn't very lucky for the rabbit, now was it??? Anyway, printed on a little extra slip of paper with the packing data card in my rigs is: "Meet me Jesus, Meet me Meet me in the middle of the air And if my wings should fail me Lord Please meet me with another pair." Okay, maybe more superstition then safety, but so far so good. ... and if you can name the group and song that's from without having to google it on the Internet...

DP, good point. You're correct, seeing the potential chain ahead of time and either doing overt things to break the chain... like maybe I ought to fix this what-not before I jump my right again... or establishing good habbits... like practice your emergency procedures or maybe we should break off at 4.5 instead of 3 are things that are lost on some... AND... what really gets me tweaked are folks that even in retrospect refuse to see the chain and would rather point fingers and lay blame elsewhere...

No arguement that big student rigs can sometimes "fly the student" even if the student is an average sized person, let alone if they're a smaller person. However, at the same time I hope I wouldn't get an arguement that part of the reason we put students out on big canopies (thus, big containers required) is to maximize the "safety margin" or "amount of forgiveness" for the student learning canopy piloting. Its kinda like when you're out to teach a person to drive a car... which would you do... A) Take them out in mom's station wagon to a big empty mall parking lot on a Sunday and let them get an introduction to driving a car taking it around the parking lot a few times... OR... B) Take them out in a zippy sports car to the top of a freeway entrance ramp right at Monday morning rush hour and turn them loose on the freeway?

What kind of answer are you looking for, one that would go against the "manufactures suggestions"? Since they are the ones that design and build the product they probably will provide you with the best answer. And that is a riggers opinion. Sparky Well, it is interesting to do research outside of the manufacturers suggestions to see how the "general skydiving population" is using various products. Good, bad or otherwise, you'll probably find that on average folks are flying ZP at a higher wingloading then manufacturer recommendations. Good, bad or otherwise, that's the way it is and it is information to have to be, well, informed. However, what Sparky may be pointing out and what I do believe is sometimes some of us in the skydiving verse take this as "the answer they want to hear" for what ever reason... which, whether it has to do with skydiving or anything else in life really, going with the "answer you want to hear" can bite you if you don't then balance it with the consequences of going with that decission.

True, I'd rather be lucky then good any day... but it doesn't stop me from trying to be good...

Years ago, there was an incident at a DZ near me where a jumper, got to the bottom end of the skydive, deployed her main, it had some sort of malfunction, she decided to cut-away her main and pull her reserve handle... which she did in the correct order and at sufficient altitude, her main seperated normally, her reserve came out, line-strech, canopy came out of the free-bag, all as advertised... but her reserve canopy did not inflate becasue the person who had last repacked the reserve had left a clamp in-place which prevented her reserve from inflating... she wistled in under a streemer, basically. This is the only incident I'm aware of (doesn't mean there isn't more, just they're not known to me) that I can think of where the deceased did everything right and still died. My 2 cents... but, other incidents like somone ridding a mal all the way in, or a low cut-away followed by no reserve pull or too low a reserve pull to do any good always, to me, seem to have another element of "if they had done this or that" it wouldn't have turned out that way. Remember, skydiving is not certain... it can kill you. However, the likelyhood that you'll do everything right on a skydive, but still die is very very remote. It is more likely you'll be killed skydiving because of you not dealing properly with an emergency situation... remember, in most every incident, post-incident analysis can point to a chain of events that if that chain had been broken, the indicent would not have happened... OR... given recent skydiving history (say the past 8 to 10 years), it is more likely you'll kill yourself under a perfectly good main canopy due to "pilot error" while flying your canopy from opening back to the ground. Yes, James Martin, sorry, I had forgotten that one too, my bad.

Well, gee, that eliminates about half of Rich's vocabulary then!

With Rich, what could possibly go wrong???

Why are you afraid to buy a new canopy? Because new ZP is a pain to pack? Be brave, do it! ... and learn to hook it up (have a rigger help you) and pack it yourself, you'll be better for it and feel more confident, trust me.

No he aint. bozo DOH! ... sorry.

Yep, Rampturd, with Mikey hanging it up, you are now offically the LAST experienced jumper out there that's still jumping F111 AND a flat-packer!

Insects... huh... saw a canopy come back with a Mojave Green (rattlesnake) in it once and a different canopy, different time with a Kangaroo Rat in it, but never insect problems... kinda makes you want to get that Blag Flag canopy sponsorship...

I'm not sure about adding anything to the water when washing and rinsing out the canopy to neautralize acid. I'm hoping one of the older more experienced master riggers that lurk the board (Councilman, masterrigger, billbooth, etc.) that have had first hand experience with the "acid mesh" problem would see this thread and give their 2 cents. Also I'm not sure if the BROMOCRESOL GREEN SOLUTION you can get from para-gear (http://www.paragear.com/templates/base_template.asp?group=240#S7989BGS) to check the mesh for acid on affected round reserves / pilot rigs would work (would be useful) for checking for acid on a main canopy since the test involves applying the solution to the material (mesh) and it turning color if "posititve"... but I'm not sure if that would work on nylon on a main that is likely already dyed some color... Anyway, are you sure it might not be something else besides acid? Anitfreeze? I don't think if it was something hydrocarbon-ish... e.g. fuel... it would do what you've described. Can you post pictures?? You're right, it sounds like acid is the likely culprit since it sounds like it failed the "thumb test."

Bummer. You or your rigger could query the Poynter's manual for the subject of "Acid Mesh" or "Acid Mesh Test", but basically, I think it will boil down to having to wash / rinse the canopy, let it dry and then test to see if the acid is gone... thing I'm thinking though is whether or not the Ph test one would do if they suspected acid mesh would work on nylon? ... if it is in fact acid that damaged your canopy. It likely may not apply here, but you can do a google search on "acid mesh test"; you're looking for PIA Technical Standard 108... like I said, it may not apply, but its an interesting read. Anyway, some of the real "big rigger brains" will be along and are more knowlegeable then me. If your rig / canopy is at the DZ all the time like you say and if this has happend on at least one other occasion to someone else, I'd be really concerned as to the source of the damage... i.e. what got spilled on the carpet that maybe you're packing on? Did battery acid leak from one of the airplanes? Is your packing area in the hangar the same place they park the airplanes over night / during the week? When you leave your rig at the DZ, is it locked up in your locker or do other's have unsupervised access to it? If something has gotten on to your main and damaged it, what about your container or reserve?? These are all questions that go through my mind... I'm sure you've thought of them too. Good luck. We'd like to hear how this mystery turns out.

Wow! That much huh? Just kidding!

Welcome all to the woes of packing brand new zero-P! Just one more reason to jump your new gear more... it will break in quicker... PLUS TIP!!!???! Since when do you have to tip packers?

WHUFFO!!! ... but seriously... Mikey, hope ya at least show up at the Peckerhead Meat and drink some beers and tell some stories. Anyway, someone up-post already said that it was Hank that invented the curved pin... now wasn't it he was trying ot invent a "holder" for quarters on those quarter type pool tables ya see in bars when he came up with the curved pin?... or at least that's what I think I remember hearing once while knockin' back a few beers with y'all ol' grey hairs one night..

Yes, ask Alt-2, they should know and be able to tell you. Sorry for the tangent... but didn't someone do the math awhile back and note that a Neptune will flat-line at about 80% of the descent rate / speed needed to fire an Expert Cypres... other factors are involved, but something to think about if you're practicing your swooping and you're flat-lining your Neptune.

That's a pretty generous DZO you have there Bob.d. Question... does your DZO ever then ground the plane because of bad or questionable weather?

That's what I'm thinking, or maybe make a new design that will be landable. Ummm... hate to be all black-deathy, but people have landed wingsuits already... the trick will be landing one AND being able to then get on another load...

Just my 2 cents, but... Basically, the "un-written rule" or "custom" as I've always took it and explained to newbies is if you get to the top and YOU decide not to get out because of Winds, Weather, Spot, whatever and you ride the plane down, then you're expected to pay. Remember, you're not paying for the skydive, you're paying for the airplane ride to the top. If the airplane gets to the top and the DZO decides to call the plane down for what ever reason then the right thing for the DZO to do would be to eat the cost of the trip and not charge the jumpers... I've had that happen a handful of times and that's what has happened in that specific case. Basically, it boils down to yet another example of showing YOU are responsible for YOUR skydiving. If the conditions are "sketchy" learn to evaluate before you get on the plane.

Well, the sports doc I went to about having my hardware out was also a skydiver... ... he looked at the X-rays and asked me, "So, was it a Stilletto or a Sabre?"... Anyway, I'm not telling you to fib or anything, but if you're having problems with the hardware in there... say pain, discomfort, swelling after exercise... I don't think a doctor telling you to "just live with it" is something I'd sit still for... there's lots of doctors out there.

Here's the Prelim Report from NTSBs web site... -------------- NTSB Identification: LAX06FA124 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Sunday, February 26, 2006 in California City, CA Aircraft: Aero Vodochody L39, registration: N39DF Injuries: 2 Fatal. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. On February 26, 2006, about 0820 Pacific standard time, an Aero Vodochody L39, N39DF, collided into hilly terrain while performing a low altitude course reversal maneuver about 6.4 nautical miles northwest of California City, California. The experimental category turbojet airplane was registered to Mach 1 Aviation, Universal City, California. The airplane was destroyed during the impact sequence and post crash fire. The airplane was equipped with dual flight controls, and it could be piloted from either the front or rear seat. The commercial certificated pilots were fatally injured. The accident occurred during a flight conducted for the purpose of filming a motion picture involving two L39 airplanes. The film producer-director and the cameraman were in the lead Cessna 310 airplane, and the cameraman filmed a portion of the accident airplane's final maneuver. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the work-related flight, and no flight plan had been filed. The flight was performed under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91, and it originated from Van Nuys, California, about 0710.

Ooooh!!! There's a "list!" Sounds like Bounce Bingo to me... I want in. Ummm... sorry, couldn't resist. Anyway... Steve-O... welcome aboard and good on you for taking basic and advanced canopy courses. I'll admit, when I first read your post, that when I heard you say that you have 100 jumps on a Sabre170... etc... that my first blush was "that's really not a lot of jumps on one canopy." Now I don't mean to say I'm scoffing at what you said... again, good on you for taking canopy courses. Up-post someone said it would help if you filled out your profile so we knew somemore info like how many total jumps you have, over what time period and how you're loading your canopy now. Anyway, one thing I'd like to throw out, if you haven't done it yet, why don't you call-up PD and get a Sabre-2 170 demo. In my words, the Sabre-2 flys somewhere between an old Sabre and a Stilletto. It would be a good experience for you, I think. Remember, you've got the rest of your life to downsize, the decissions you make will determine how much time that is.

H-mm, I thought this is a standard technique and learned at FJC in "landing on obstacles" section =/... Yes, I'm surprised that this doesn't seem to be common knowledge any more amongst the newer jumpers. JR... its been awhile since I went through or taught a FJC, but what I recall being taught... and teaching... were ... PLAN A... techniques on how to avoid landing on obstacles... PLAN B... what to do if it was absolutely unavoidable... and... PLAN C... if you do get hung-up on an obstacle, STAY - PUT and wait for help to arrive. Its not like we drop student skydivers into the Amazon Jungle or behind the beaches of Normandy at night. My point is... while it may make an iteresting story to know this tid-bit of 411... how to get yourself out of a tree by deploying your reserve and using it to climb down. Chances are no student skydiver is going to have to rescue one-self like that, so, I really don't think teaching them in FJC that if they're hung up in a tree or power line or light pole, that the first thing they should think to do is dump their reserve and try to climb down on their own.