diverdriver

The PIC is SUPPOSED to check the Mx on the plane. They are Pilot In Command and are the final authority to the operation of the aircraft. Pilot training INCLUDES how to know when Mx is bad or the aircraft isn't airworthy. So again, why would you cut those accidents out? They are part of the picture. And yes, pilot training will help with bad Mx. Pilot refuses to fly a crappy plane... plane gets fixed (hopefully). Beech King Air. Skydivers on board returning to Utah. They died of hypothermia in the water. Beech King Air 90 Fatal Lake Point, UT January 14, 2001 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20010126X00364&key=1 Not landing in driving snow and skidding off a runway but it was an over shoot due to trying to get in before fog totally covered the airport: TP-206 (Turbo-prop Cessna 206) Non-Fatal Snohomish, WA December 11, 2005 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060106X00021&key=1 Fatal reposition flight of a twin otter trying to go to Carolina SkySport. DHC-6 Fatal Reposition of Jump Plane Raleigh, NC July 31, 2000 http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X21533&key=1 Oh really? I think I gave three examples of jump planes crashing in conditions you described. What is the true danger to the jump pilot? The industry. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Whats the line?...there are no good porter pilots...just ones who have not crashed yet? I think that's it. It's sad but I hear all the time how an operation will have pilots they know and trust and then it goes on the road and someone has to show some new pilot how to fly a porter unbeknownst to the owner and they end up twisting it. Or a takeoff is made with the trim set in the landing position so they do a takeoff departure stall. I have heard, but don't know for sure, that you can not get insurance for porter operations flying skydivers anymore. Any porter operator want to correct that? Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

In the mid nineties the FAA and USPA attempted to come up with a number of hours the entire jump fleet operated per year. It was said to be about 100,000 hours. Now, all of GA has millions of hours combined so accident rates are usually related to two things: accidents/100K hours of flying ; accidents/cycles (takeoff to landing is one cycle). GA is said to have an accident rate per 100K hours of about 6.0. That's 6 accidents per 100K hours of flying. During the mid nineties you will see we some times had triple that number. Why would I eliminate that? If the Mx is bad due to lack of caring in the skydiving industry then it has EVERYTHING to do with skydiving. So, no, I don't eliminate those accidents as they are a very important number to knowing the risk of flying jumpers. There's more to a skydiving jump plane accident than just did someone deploy over the tail or hit it on exit. Do you eliminate hook turn accidents from skydiving accidents since they had a deployed parachute over their head? I'm really not sure what you were asking here. Could you clearify or give an example of what you mean? I have not broken the numbers down by aircraft type yet. However, I can tell you that you will find more 182s in total number of accidents than large turbines (for most years but there are exceptions). There are more 182s operating flying jumpers than any other single aircraft type. Now, what brings down a 182 jump plane typically may not bring down a twin otter.... or will it? 182s run out of gas. Twin Otters have run out of gas. Seems pretty straight forward you need to put on gas to keep flying until you can make a controlled landing. Is it an aircraft issue or a skydiving industry mentallity? That's what I'm getting at when I give these lists and statistics. You seem to want to cut things out so it doesn't seem so bad. I put it all together and say "here is the real risk if you are a jump pilot." I have no illusions that people will always argue with my ascertions and postings. But it seems you haven't read my website yet. So, please, read it. Read all of the accident reports (at least the past 10 years worth) and then tell me if you think we do a good job as an industry or do we need to do better? One last thing, USPA does not include in it's yearly statistics for jump plane accidents ferry flights and maintenance (Mx) flights. They believe that if there were no jumpers on board at takeoff then it wasn't a jump plane accident. I have always ascerted that these accidents have EVERYTHING to do with skydiving as it is the industry that has put these planes and pilots in the precarious position they often find themselves. Lack of training. Lack of Mx. Lack of support to make a sound decision and back the pilot up to say no to an operation. I started my postings on this in 1998 after 5 friends died in a 206 accident. I said the industry was headed for real problems. I was scoffed at. 1999 was one of the deadliest years for jump plane accidents and one of the highest totals. I have made this one of my life's works to bring information forward and have it available anytime for review on my website. You can even post comments there. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

This is an excel spreadsheet done from my accident section of www.DiverDriver.com. I compiled a couple of charts. If it's not understandable I apologize. If you have a question about it ask away. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Ok Zig, here's your list. Hope you don't end up on it. JUMP PLANE ACCIDENT LIST Mind you, this is the accident list. It does not include the "Incidents" which are minor according to NTSB 830 (have you read NTSB 830?) but can forewarn of a looming problem with an operation. What needs to be done is have a look at the corporate culture of the operation and see if they are concerned or just chalk it up to "well that's skydiving". Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Problem. What problem. Please, show me the numbers. Please, don't hide behind the "safety" card. What problem? Jump planes crash at about twice the rate of all of General Aviation. That's HORRIBLE!! We are using commercial pilots in commercial opeations and we are worse than student pilots, private pilots, and other part 91 commercial pilots. Interesting to note is that flight instruction flights have a LOWER accident rate per 100,000 hours of flying and the NTSB has talked about how this is due to there being....COMMERCIAL PILOTS ON BOARD!! And for those that will argue we do more cycles that's not true. Flight instruction flights do as many or more cycles per hour than jump planes and yet they STILL have a better record. Safety card? I don't have to hide anywhere. I've been saying this for years. Guess you just haven't heard it yet. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

No, don't read into it. This happens all the time over the years. It's quiet then bam! You get hit with multiple reports from around the country (and in this case around the world). It's a big country (and a big world). I wouldn't let it trouble you in that regard. This debate comes up every year whether "something" is going on. Really, it's typical. And sad. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Yep, I don't think there's a single porter frame out there that hasn't been twisted at least once. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Thanks. You know I have put an example training syllabus and example written test that anyone can copy and use and modify and expand on for their operation. They just have to take the time to do it. I'm not for regulation first. It is a last resort. And yes, people do ignore regulations so it's not a panasea (sp?). But I know people are more likely to do something if they see it in print. There should be a sign off by an experienced jump pilot in the logbook much as there is for towing gliders/banners. What "experienced jump pilot means" would have to be defined but it's not impossible. There should be a written test on file at the DZ (or maybe FAA office) covering common topics for flying jumpers. We could model it after having a written test for student pilots before soloing. Seems it was a good idea to have something in writing before getting turned loose for them. Can't see the harm here. There should be once a year recurrent training to demonstrate knowledge of flight planning (weight and balance, fuel burn, preflight inspection, etc...). I have to prove I can preflight my plane every 6 months I don't see this as very burdensome. There could be a couple more suggestions for improving training across the country. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

WTF are you talking about "Hillary". Sir Edmund Hillary? Yah, some times I feel like I'm climbing Everest. I don't want to get in your wallet. Do you not read my posts? The more accidents we have across a small fleet (all the jump planes in the USA constitutes a small fleet) the higher insurance premiums are gonna go and THEY will get in your wallet. Then you can rail against the evil insurance companies as being pricks. It is US (you, me and everyone involved in this industry) that are to blame for these accidents. We do not do enough to educate or hell even give guidance to new jump pilots or even experienced jump pilots on how to prevent accidents. Skydivers and DZ operators seem to think that the laws of physics and reality are suspended on a DZ. They aren't. This is why we have the record that we do. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. Just follow what other parts of the aviation industry have already done to improve safety. That means mandatory initial training and recurrent training. Get together. Decide what's important. Then teach that!!! What is hard about that concept for you? It cost no money to sit in a class room and talk. It costs a MINIMIMAL amount of money (compared to hull loss) to spend some hours flying doing different drills. Leave your political BS in Speaker's Corner mkay? This is about saving lives and as of yet this industry has not woken up to the problem. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Oh the horor of higher jump tickets! You aren't paying enough as it is. Planes are expensive and the human operator of that plane requires training otherwise you get the long list of accident reports I have listed on my site. At some point people are going to have to realize that they either want safety or a cheap cheap jump ticket. And why would it cost a DZ ANY money to sit and talk to their jump pilot about what to do and what not to do in situations that are common to being a jump pilot? Time is FREE! Ok, maybe it'll cost a few bucks to put the plane up so the pilot can do some aerial training but come on... Can you afford the accident and death toll more? Ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure? There are succesful DZs in the USA that make initial training and recurrent training part of their business model. That's what this is. A business. And when you lose the hull and lots of lives your business will suffer. It's cheaper to factor in the cost of training and recurrent training than pay higher and higher insurance premiums or lose the plane. I've heard the mantra of "it'll raise jump prices" since I started flying skydivers. Sadly, keeping jump prices low has not lowered the accident rate. Insurance prices have gone up because we have failed to take care of our own house. The insurance company could care less about lives specificly. They insure the hull. They will just charge a higher price if we keep cracking them up. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

You can take this situation many ways. You could be mad and never jump there again. You could try to talk to the pilot more about the situation. You could try to get someone more experienced to talk to the pilot about flying jumpers. You could refer the pilot to www.diverdriver.com so that he could seek his own information about flying jumpers and maybe make up for any lack of training. You said he didn't get much training. How do you know? I don't doubt it just trying to see what was said about the training. I disagree with one of the comments here that flying jumpers is not technically demanding. I happen to think it is one of the most demanding pilot jobs you can have. Take off at max allowable take off weight. Do it during mostly warmer months where performance is lower. Fly with minimum fuel to take as much revenue to altitude. Fly long hours. Sit long sits waiting for the chance to make a few dollars for food. Get into an industry that has no standard for minimum training just minimum hour requirements usually by insurance which guarantees that you still might not receive the proper training to do the job. I flew jumpers for 10 years. I'm still appalled that there is no set standard in the USA for training and checking jump pilots. Could someone link me to the BPA jump pilot manual? I actually have not read it. Might be a good thing to link to on my jump pilot website. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Mr. Discount Airline Pilot Guy. .... of course!!

I saw the wings. Liked the illusion though. So this is how you spend your time? Man, I thought I was a bit geeky scanning the NTSB website endlessly. Seek help HH. Just friendly advice man.

Doing good. Life is always active for us. The girls are straight A students still and little Mitchell is a total flirt. Can't imagine where he gets that from. Wendy is good and getting back to work a bit more. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Thanks. Got it fixed. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Spirit is still around and growing out of DTW and FLL! This new operation is SkyBus and I just saw one of their planes in Columbus. Good thing people aren't choosing to fly on them for their paint job.... GOOD GRIEF!!!

Well, I am now up to speed on updating the accident section of my website. I hope to make some other changes to the website in the months to come. Other than the forum the website has been a bit stagnant for the past couple of years. I have updated the years 2004, 2005 and 2006. If you all would take a look and see if there are any accidents you know of involving jump planes (whether actually dropping jumpers at the time or not) let me know. Contact me via PM so I can look into the circumstance and see if I want to add it to my list. Also, if you could take the time to look back through the years and see if there is anything missing there too. I believe it is the most comprehensive list of jump plane accidents anywhere available to the public. In particular I only have two accidents listed for 1987. This seems statistically low but not impossible. I've done a pretty thorough search of the NTSB website but there is always that one that pops up that didn't fall into my search parameters yet involved a jump plane. Thank you all who have given me words of encouragement over the years about this website. It has been a labor of love and one I hope to continue for a long time as a service to those who pursue skydiving both as pilots and jumpers. The Accident Section The Main Home Page Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

And pilots who have no respect for themselves as they will get paid less to fly that 130 seat A-320 as I get for my 50 seat CRJ. No thanks.

What I feared would happen over the years has finally happened. I tried to run an update on my own for my site DiverDriver.com and it didn't go so well. The text I wanted to update worked but the site style got messed up. Soooo... the buttons still work as far as I know. It just doesn't look as pretty as it did. Hope you all understand while I get it all fixed. Hopefully I'll get a new site style and get underway updating it regularly again. Thank you for your patience. That is all. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

If that is true then it is the only case I have ever heard of. What action was taken against this pilot? I found nothing on google. Because if it's not on google..... it never happened. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Why do you want to and why do you feel you have to? It's not necessary. Aircraft operation safety is not a mystery or by random. It is a deliberate approach. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Please review this incomplete list of jump plane accidents. Sometimes, they don't always make it into the air. The List Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

I say yes you are. If that pilot can not conform to the current regulations and demonstrate their ability to a set standard then what other regulations are they disregarding? You are in danger from an "anti-authority" attitude that has killed more than one pilot and his pax. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

What does "self-policing" mean? Does that mean we confront issues directly and if the unacceptable situation continues then we go to the authority (in this case the FAA)? I say yes. We should be on the lookout for those that don't conform to standard. However, I would say that shouldn't be our first option. I think we do need to make it known that we don't approve of such a situation. It might take getting the help of some people that are more experienced in the industry to confront them. This is what I possibly see happening here but the original poster has yet responded with more info that is needed. A long time icon in the sport of skydiving once told me when I started my safety website "be prepared to be attacked. Get a thick skin quick." He was right. Even when you know you're right you will be attacked for your views and actions. There is ALWAYS someone who differs in opinion and probably strongly. Just always try to have your ducks in a row and stick to facts. This will cut through the bull most of the time. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125