diverdriver

This is being talked A LOT in the airline pilot forums. So far it is being reported that the gear indication was DOWN THREE GREEN. But they felt something was off just before touchdown and initiated a low energy balked landing. The plane settle to the pavement causing the sparks but they successfully went around and then worked the problem. The plane then came back in for a safe landing. Whether the crew screwed up should be pretty easy to figure because the Flight Data Recorder will be downloaded and analyzed. And yah, normally there should be a Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS -- JipWiz) should be blaring at around 400 feet above ground level (AGL) GEAR! - TOO LOW! GEAR! - TOO LOW! How they got to ground level with only the nose gear doors open and no warning is being investigated. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

So if technology contributes to complacency why do you have a Cypres on your Reflex? Do you have the Catapult installed on your Reflex? Are you complacent? Any system has its limitations. You do not know everything that happened on that mid-air with the 737 and Embraer Jet. But I hear this mantra all too often in skydiving that if the idea doesn't fix every single problem then it shouldn't be used or considered. Remember, it was the airline crew that manuevered to avoid this collision threat over Crosskeys. NOT the jump plane. Had the jump plane also had a traffic alert system there quite well have never been a need for evasive manuevers on either part. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

That's great. Maybe we need to spread the word and get these things out there. Had this jump pilot seen a target on the screen just before descending he would have made a different choice on his descent manuever and no one would have been the wiser about a conflict. Because it wouldn't have happened. What many people forget about skydiving is that it is the only VFR operation that is required by FAR to be in contact with ATC always. Controllers see us as VFR...when really we're "super VFR". The other thing I don't understand or I'm not aware of the arguements already made on this but inside a Class B vale every aircraft has to have a transponder with Mode C. However, when you leave the jump plane you are invisible. I wonder how they get around this or whether anyone has pushed it. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Any Skydive Atlanta pilots care to comment on their TAS system? Helpful? Recommend it for others? Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Thanks Tom. If I'm correct you've had a hand in trying to get that database made and put into use. No? The way an airport gets onto our screens on a normal display from what I've been told is that the airport has a runway at least 5,000 feet long and has an instrument approach to it. I was surprised at one point when Skydive Chicago (8N2) appeared on our screens. Then, it disappeared. That's when I asked the higher ups and that was the response I got. Was disappointed that it seemed we took a step back just as we were about to take a step forward. Believe me, our company is all over this subject. Not very happy. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Yes, I'm sure that is what I thought was a discussion on TCAS. TAWS, TCAS so close and yet not. And yes, I don't think TAWS would help jump planes unless they were doing any ferrying to boggies. Different debate. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

My apologies to all about my comment that USPA was fighting a proposed reg to require all turbine aircraft to have TCAS. Although I'm quite sure I read this, I can not now find any supporting information about the proposed reg or USPAs stance. I retract my statement on that part of the issue. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

I agree. But this is not what ATC is doing. I feel any DZ should be treated as "hot" whenever they give a NOTAM for jumping. It should be treated just like we treat props on piston planes: It could start up at any time. The human element to "clear" the DZ of air traffic just shouldn't be. When airliners leave PHL there is no conflict when they are turned "direct DITCH" as soon as they check on with departure. It's when they are given a vector south first then turned direct that we fly right through the DZ. And I guarantee that you go to any airline out there that flys into PHL and ask 500 pilots if they know where Crosskeys is and I guarantee that maybe two would know how to find it. It's up to you to protect your life and your sport. Even if it is deemed controller error if there is actually a collision between jumpers or a jump plane and an airliner which costs lives I guarantee that all skydiving across the country is likely to be grounded. Remember the threat from the FAA about seatbelts in 1992 after the Perris Valley Twin Otter crash and the Beech 18 at Hinckley? Grounding all skydiving can happen if Congress gets involved because airline commerce has been effected. Think of the press and public outrage that would ensue. You think the general public will care if you get to jump again ever or not? Be proactive. Get your DZs to ensure they are not having regular near misses with airliners. Go the extra mile for yourself. This type of accident can never happen or the repercussions will be felt for decades. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

The link your provided did not show the Cross Keys DZ as far as what I saw. It was of the New York area. Anyone have a better link? edit: ok try this link: http://skyvector.com/#22-23-2-4375-672 It is outside the Class B but is inside the Mode C vail. The Class B airspace has been "cut off" from a normal shape around an airport of PHL size. I was told by the PHL manager that it is because of McGuire AFB is to the Northeast and they didn't want to contact anyone going southwest towards the Washington DC area. How true that is I don't know. Just what I was told from someone who's been there longer. So Crosskeys is way closer to a major airport than most any other DZ I can think of. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

The Regional Jet (CRJ) most certainly was NOT at fault for this near miss. You think your DZ "owns" the airspace above it? Hah! You don't. And you never will. Crosskeys is a hazard to every departure from Philadelphia on the DITCH departure (the first fix/waypoint) and those coming in for runway 35. The airport for Crosskeys IS NOT displayed on our screens and it's not required to be. I have gone and described to our pilots on how to get it on their displays by using a couple of "drawing" features we have but this does not guarantee each crew will do it nor are they required to. I am trying to educate our pilots more despite what is required of us. I am trying on our end. You all have to try on your end. This is the second near miss in just over a year with my company alone and there are a lot of operators coming in and out of PHL. Yes, the controller did vector the CRJ into the DZ. But on our TCAS screens we see planes that have transponders. We do NOT expect them to do barrel roles and acrobactic manuevers coming out of the sky above us. This crew had to take evasive action to avoid the collision (so they DID see and avoid) because the jump plane DID NOT see them. Our crew had to go way beyond normal flight manuevering to avoid a collision. 1,000 feet horizontal seperation is not enough and not acceptable. Had the jump plane had TCAS or some traffic alert system the pilot of the jump plane would have been warned as to the presence of the CRJ. He could have made a more informed decision about descending. A Twin Otter can achieve a rate of descent over 6,000 feet per minute. That is a tremendous verticle closure rate and it is up the operator of such aircraft to plan accordingly for the airspace they are in. Dead is dead. Even if you are dead right, you're still dead. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

I have received word that one of our CRJs departing Philadelphia had a near miss with the Twin Otter at Crosskeys, NJ. The plane dropped the last jumper then apparently dove past our CRJ which took evasive action to avoid a collision. The captain on that flight estimates the horizontal distance at less than 1,000 feet. This can not continue! My near miss with freefalling jumpers at Crosskeys happened just over a year ago. Eventually the statistical odds will catch up and there are going to be fatalities due to this. That is why I am now a firm believer that ALL turbine jump planes should be REQUIRED to install and have operating a TCAS (Traffic alert and Collision Avoidance System). USPA is doing a diservice by fighting this regulation. It is going to cost people their lives soon. Will you be one of them? Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Many of us sat in a class all day long to make one S/L or IAD jump. No freefall. No self deployment. Then after graduation and on through the years of skydiving many engaged in new skydiving disciplines or activities without giving it 5 minutes thought. Some paid the ultimate price for failing to study what they were about to do. Some did think about things well often but then broke their own rule only to have it bite them. Safe Skydiving is an approach and attitude. Not a certain activity over another. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Dale, while I can understand your point of view I don't think we can realisticly expect every pilot to intuit muscle memory just from talking about it. There is an aspect that we have to "do" to truly be ready for it. Otherwise wouldn't we just talk about stall practice rather than actually going out and having to do it in training? Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Safety is NO accident. It's an attitude. It really is. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

You do understand that just about every jump pilot I know got OJT when learning to fly skydivers? From 182s to Casas pilots are trained in the pilot seat with jumpers on board all the time. We train spotting, flying the jump run, dealing with CG shifting, cutting, etc... all on the job with paying passengers. So...are you opposed to ALL jump pilot training with paying passengers on board? Because it happens all the time. I guess I'm asking where's the threshold? Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Feathering the prop refers to turning the blades of the prop so they are parallel to the relative wind (airflow) so as to reduce drag. If you've seen Twin Otters shut down the props are in the feathered position. Casas and Skyvans do not feather on shutdown (well, they're not supposed to). If you feather in flight that prop and engine are taken out of any ability to help you. It's just along for the ride. So, effectively, you have created an emergency. Now, it is common in multi-engine training to secure an engine in flight and let the pilot practice manuevering so as to get a feel for how the plane will act. However, it should never be practiced to actually make a demonstrated single engine landing. If you have to go around you will have to do it on one engine for real and this is risky. The Aerohio crash years ago was a result of just this situation. They had a perfectly working engine but it was useless for a go-around because the prop was feathered. I have feathered and unfeathered a prop in flight on a Twin otter. It takes quit awhile to unfeather it and it is NOT graceful. I don't recommend pilots actually feathering the prop for SE landing practice. Use a zero thrust setting. That's a thrust setting so there is zero (near zero) aerodynamic drag. A windmilling prop (engine at idle) causes drag. That's why we feather it in flight if the engine fails. By keeping a zero thrust setting the engine is ready to produce power if necessary almost instantly. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

You're right. Landing a full load is not an emergency. But it certainly is NOT normal for that jump pilot. It's not something they do all the time. Now add in stress due to needing to be on the ground. What I'm asking for is to broaden our jump pilots experience with targeted training. I'm not saying they have to do takeoffs and landings all day long training. But give em a chnace to see what it's like a couple or three times. In your example: Getting on the plane for that flight for skydiving makes it ok to not have seats and to sit on the floor. Now, if you took off with no intention to jump but to land again for practice then it's not legal to sit on the floor. The purpose of that flight was to land with no intention to jump. Now, if you boarded with the intention to jump then you can go without seats. If you couldn't jump then you're legal to land. The important thing is that you INTENDED[/I] to jump. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Folks, my apologies. I'd say most of the time I think I give good advice but in this case my posts have caused confusion. I'm sorry. What I didn't articulate was that when suggesting people land with a full load I was refering to NORMAL landing practice. Some very sharp people have pointed out the FARs that suggest this is not legal and they are totally right! My apologies. I should have known that. As for doing any type of emergency training (engine out SE/ME) you should NOT have pax on board. That is absolutely true. And when landing training for engine out in a ME plane you SHOULD NOT feather a good engine but rather simulate zero thrust. Feathering an engine for landing practice IS CREATING A REAL EMERGENCY! Securing an engine in flight for the purpose of demonstration is common, accepted practice. Make sure you understand what the manufacturer says about that type of practice too. And when conducting emergency training you MUST, MUST MUST! brief exactly what is going to happen and what you expect the training pilot to do. There should be no doubt as to what is expected. It's training, not testing. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Hey, if people feel like they'd rather have balast on board during normal full plane landing practice then do it. But it needs to be done. A King Air crashed years ago in Michigan in an accelerated stall. That was a high time pilot who should have known better. But adding this little bit to training is easy and should be done some how. If they can put some balast on then power off manuevering should be practiced also at altitude. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Awesome post! I 100% support this! People you are doing yourself a favor if you help the pilot out once in awhile and provide some ballast for them to practice some heavy landings. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

OMG.. we're getting nowhere with this.

Oh I would be worried about the grade about half way through the first quarter. Both of my step-daughters are straight A. We switched schools half way through the school year and in order for my older daughter to get into honors math she had to do ALL of the homework from the first semester. I tutored her. We were watching her grades closely so that she didn't sink or get frustrated. We wanted what was best for her and on the level she needed to be at. Honors math didn't matter to me. But if she could be there then I'd like to see her challenged. It was difficult getting through a whole semester worth of homework on top of what she was doing already which incorporated a lot of the first semester. And she pulled off an A anyway! I am so proud of her. Like it or not grades do matter when applying for the next level. I want her to have the best picture she's capable of having so she can go where she wants. Get into that principle's office and protest loudly. If it's that bad this guy has got to go yesterday. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

So it sounds like you've talked to him at length. Have you spoken with the principle or the school board? Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Come on people. A plane crashed. Can we at least answer a few questions? When? Where? How? Why? What was the tail number? Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Have him teach you one class. See if you can understand him. Then judge.