diverdriver

Marc, didn't you get a random test after the report came out about the SDC fatality? When was the last time they did a random test where you work? Chris

RIGHT!!!

I'll pose a question. Do you feel that we should stop using all AADs since they don't prevent all skydiving deaths? I mean, look at the fatality reports. We all know a Cypres doesn't prevent hook turn fatalities so we just shouldn't use them? This is sarcasm, as you figured, but I feel that drug screening is only a tool. And yes, the airline industry has changed from what it once was. Drug testing won't prevent all pilot error accidents. The most complex machinery on any flight deck IS the PIC. To say that drug testing will prevent all pilot error accidents doesn't cover it. It is only one tool in a whole group of things done for safety. Others are every 6 months I have to go fly in "the box" and go through emergency procedures. I mean come on! I just proved myself 6 months ago and I haven't crashed since then. Why you testing me again?!! [again, in sarcasm] Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

We're not helping much. Are we Carrie?

Oh yah? Well they make me fly a 25 million dollar plane around the country side and get paid for it. Plus we have SEXY STUssss!!!!! [/austin powers]

Wow, is my thinking completely off on this? I thought since the Cypres was installed in the reserve container and could effect the operation of the reserve that it did meet some TSO standard or had approval from the FAA. Boy, was I that far off on this? Chris

FAR 105 states that you must have the permission of the airport manager in order to jump on an airport. Now, the City Board hires said airport manager so which way do you think he's going to go? I would contact Ed Scott at USPA to get advice on how to fight this. He might have some insight on how to change this. EScott@uspa.org Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

I agree very much with this. I too believe many are not keeping their eyes open. On a number of subjects. Not just this one. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

If you believe this then you don't understand alchoholism or substance abuse. Part of it is the ability to mask the addiction or impairment. Most times until it is too late (until after the accident). That is why there are three aspects to the drug screening process. 1. Pre-employment screening. If you can't keep from doing substances that are ILLEGAL and follow the laws of the land then you don't work in the transportation industry. Those that say they don't care what people do on their own time are missing a strong safety point. Attitudes towards following laws is important. If you can't follow these laws then what other FARs are you going to break? That's the arguement. 2. Random testing. This is a deterent to make sure the rules are followed about substance use and abuse. We have a 8 hour "bottle to throttle" FAR. However, at my company the rule is 10 hours between consumption of alchohol and reporting for duty (which adds another 45 minutes before flying). Is there a "minute manager" standing by checking on us? Of course not. But the threat of getting a random test usually keeps all in line with the rule. 3. Post accident/incident testing. This is the CYA part. If the person is found with substances in their system they have to go back and find out why they didn't catch it with the other two and why no one discovered their impairment pre-event. The hope is that if you cut your finger and they find a small amount of baned substances that they might prevent a greater catastrophe. Doing a drug screen on body parts from a ball of metal won't prevent that accident. It's for Accident investigation only. But, it might prevent someone else who has has used baned substances from using them again. They might seek help thus preventing another accident of the same type. I'm sorry, you can not look into someone's eyes and determine (completely) that someone is impaired or not. There are other clues.....un-shaven/un-kept appearance, late for work, unable to "get started". If I see this I have serious questions about their ability to perform. So to those that argue that we should be testing for being hungover or fatigued I say "I already do test". It's called using my brain. I have banned people from my plane before. I'll do it again. It is only one aspect of a whole group of things done to prevent people from flying/jumping while impaired (whether it be from drug use, alchohol, fatigue, bad emotion). I am only one person. We ALL have to take on the responsibility for this issue. And that means we need to support tools that can help give a bigger picture of the employed staff. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Good point. No I do not have an actual example to point to. I've only been told anectdotal information from FAA personel. It is an FAR so the pilot could be held accountable. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

My sincerest apologies......I was still on the whole staff testing thing. Sorry. I thought I had read everything before posting. I'll have to go back now.

Absence of cause? Well, as we know in skydiving, "just cause" might be a body or two laying in a field smashed up. A bit late then. And that's what many complained about fatalities that tested positive for drugs. That they were being allowed to jump stoned or hungover from being stoned. Well, how do you tell otherwise? People are pretty sneaky creatures and are able to hide their addictions fairly well if they want until it's too late. Kids do drugs under their parents roof all the time. The parents swear they would know. Reality is they don't know. They really won't know. Drug testing is not just to catch people using but is also a deterent. It was posted here or one of the other 3 threads that pilots (who have been tested for awhile now) only test positive 1% of the time. Yet, as we know deterence can have a tremendous effect on a populous's actions. It's 1% I believe because there is a program. And taking out that 1% is a good thing to keep "weeding" out the weak ones. It's just one tool of many to try and keep the transportation industry "clean". Won't keep it all out. But it would be worse (and it was worse at one time) than it is now. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Skydiving, from what I could find, is the only form of aviation in the U.S. that does not have drug testing as a requirement. Chris-is this right? All part 91 flying (which includes skydiving) is exempt from mandatory drug testing by the FAA (or approved program). So, it is up to the operation individually to set up a program or not. Edited to spell "flying" coredctly...sheesh.....you'd think by now I'd get THAT one right. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Despite what you believe Andy the world does not revolve around SDC and Hinckley. And he never named Hinckley. There are other DZs in the area beside those two you know? Plus I believe many staff members travel from one end of the country to the other seeking work so it's not all about local politics. If you don't like what Roger says then don't read his weekly updates. It's by subscription. I don't judge Hinckley on whether they have a drug testing policy or not. I could care less really. I'll still jump there. Hope to make more than two jumps there like last year. Why do so many people dislike him? I'm sure there are a million reasons to dislike anyone in this world. Take your pick. But I suspect that no matter what Roger does or says that you will never see it as anything good. Well...that's just the way it's gonna be. When a DZ or DZO tries to improve or change it's seen as negative. That's too bad. Because I really like this change in the DZ. I think it will be something very positive for the operation. Chris Schindler

Bad taste in your mouth? I don't believe you work for Roger so I wouldn't sweat it. Those that do work for Roger will have the decision to make. And yes, I do hope it will be applied evenly. Time will tell. But I know that after being criticized pretty good for the events in the past year that being criticized for beginning drug testing was the last thing we expected. I guess we'll just have to press forward and hope for the best. Chris edited to add: I didn't think this thread started out about Roger's drug testing policy. I believe it was another DZ.

I'm not sure the legalities of this aspect but if you don't have a drug testing policy in place at the time of hiring I'm not sure you can force them to take a drug test later. I just really don't know that part of it. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Inspired by Skratch's post about drug testing at the DZ what do you think? Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Skratch, I respect you very much for your view points. I will take the counter-point though. Since I am familiar with the aviation industries current drug testing policy I feel that I can comment on the introduction of drug testing in skydiving. One, this should be for staff only. Pre-employment testing is one level of it. I feel that if you can't help yourself from using in the 30 days prior to taking the test then you might have trouble keeping clean while working for the outfit. Two, the idea of random drug testing is a deterent and may keep some people from using that otherwise would use freely (but probably not during actual jumping) while employed at the DZ. Three, post accident/incident testing is also a deterent to using. While no one plans to have a student injured they know it's a reality of the sport. In any other industry that has drug testing you have to get tested for any injury while on the job. Period. This concept goes along with the zero tollerance policy that a company could lay out. I cut my finger one time and had to have two whole stiches. And I had to pee in a cup. I don't see it as an invasion of my privacy. I don't use. I don't want to work with people that use that could be impaired while working thus increasing my chances of them injuring me while at work. Four, you don't have to work for that company if you don't want to. Don't like the idea of drug testing? Fine. There are a vast majority of DZs that don't drug test. You can work for them Five, lawsuits. Look at the problem with the tandem master in California that tested positve for marijuana in the system. There was a lot of legal wrangling over that case whether he was actually high at the time or not. Your ass is in the sling if the deceased TM test positive for anything. Look at SDC now. We had two fatalities in a years time that tested positive for drugs in the system. One was most certainly high at the time of his demise. Many on here blanket accused the whole DZ of being high while skydiving. The image is horrible especially when you know that most people do not jump high or after using. But does it happen? Yes. Drug testing probably would only have changed the outcome of one of these two fatalities at SDC. Only one was employed by the DZ. But then again, what is one life worth? Many on here called for or implied that there had to be changes at the DZ in order to gain respect of the community. So how do you change? I can talk until I'm blue in the face yet I have people still trying to swoop in front of the otter while engines are running or they want to climb on top of the otter after I have strictly forbid them from doing it. What then? Why can't adults act like adults? I'm sorry, but a few have spoiled it for the rest. That's just the way it is. Because some people couldn't control themselves and SELF POLICE themselves from doing drugs or drinking before jumping then the rest will pay the price. It is unfortunate but that's our modern world. If people always listened to the boss and didn't jump while high or drunk or hung over from being high or drunk then these messures would not be necessary. Again, I find it hard to apologize for adults. They are supposed to be adults right? They are supposed to concider how their actions effect other people, especially their employer. The DZ has a right to protect its' assets. Lose a lawsuit to the deceased tandem passenger's family and you can lose your whole operation. Do we as fun jumpers want that? Do we have the right to tell the owner of the business who has layed out all the risk to run a business that he can't drug test? I think it's all up to the DZO and the people that want to work there. We are in the transportation industry whether we want to admit it or not. We are carrying the general public and they have a right to have some assurances that the people transporting them are clean and not hung over. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

He drove you AND you made him buy you beer on the trip? Man.....that's a good friend or.......

Am I the only one who heard that in a Darth Vader voice? [hoooookaaaa]Your technological terror is no match for the power of the Dark Side[hoooookaaaaa]

That's because it is. We Yanks renamed it cuz we already had a "football" where we hardly ever touch the ball with our feet. Got that now? Good.

Don't do it. You can screw the pilots career with a violation if you go in and your reserve is out of date. Remember, he is responsible for everything you do whether you think that's fair or not. The PIC is the sole authority as to the operation of the aircraft. That means you get dead out of date, he gets screwed. Don't do it. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

But when they tried to enter the compound the citizens formed a wall. They had not gotten the message. The troops did a good thing and lowered their guns and took a knee. They withdrew to get things settled. This is a good show of regard for the locals. It will get sorted out I hope and all will understand. Good command on the field to do what they did.

Well, keeping in mind that the last time I flew at Monterey I had trouble getting the 4-way team to climb out on the lights and not take 30 seconds to actually launch. And that is not an exageration. I also remember many of the freefliers not pulling above 2.5 and once open did nothing to ride the wind back to the landing area. So, reversing the exit order to freaks first then the 4-way team with a 30 second climbout that might actually work. I do remember one day we put out 2 tandems first then the flat fliers, then the freaks, then 3 more tandems. It actaully worked and only one pass was made. But that was a very unique circumstance and not something I recommend doing regularly. It took a lot of briefing to make sure everyone knew exactly what and why it was being done. Not something practical. But it did work. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

What's the link to the 6mB file?