MeyerLouie

At Lower Elk, you have to walk down the gear, but it's less than fifty feet. Then you have your own private lake for the weekend. It's too cool. Bring inflatable mattress or boat for sure. To get to this lake, you take the same exit off 101 north, the Hamma Hamma River road, but you turn off onto a different road at the bridge. Shorter distance to reach it than going to the High (Goober Pond) lake, though. __________________________________________________ Yeah, I backpacked into an area real close to where you're talking about, it's something else. Beautiful place! MeyerLouie

looks like an old tent to me - circus tent? bet it smells ? kerosene and bees wax? like the stuff I and Grandpa built a kayak out of when I was a kid ... launched it into the icebergs on the Columbia. ... I AM JUST JOKING BLEVINS! NO NEED FOR A DISSERTATION ON GEORGER'S SIXTH GRADE LEVEL INTELLIGENCE ETC..NON ENGLISH SPEAKER ETC ... WAS BORN AND RAISED IN WASHINGTON ...WASNYT SELECTED FOR DACHAU ... Okay, no dissertations. Besides, how could I possibly respond to that anyway? I'm going to invite Bruce Smith and yes...Meyer Louie, on a camping trip this summer where we discuss the case under the harsh eye of the video cam. It's on the shore of the prettiest little lake you ever saw.

My replies to the reply of my reply are in italics, then my name. MeyerLouie _________________________________________________ Damn! I wish you hadnt posted that! Doncha know that all cargo parachutes weigh 400 pounds? Blevins carries one around everyday just for exercise .... the 400 lb Haynes jockey strap! 4 Clydesdale gonads abreast! Sorry. I was going to let Blevins continue just to see how far he wold go with this ... it's classic Blevins-speak. __________________________________________________ Blevins: This is a classic example of why you have no credibility -- speaking about parachutes and skydiving stuff you know absoluely nothing about. Notice the other non-skydivers and folks here who don't know much about parachutes and skydiving are not speaking much here. Maybe that's something you ought to try sometime. Speak only when you know what you're talking about or have some valid information to offer. Otherwise, be quiet! Unbelievable! MeyerLouie Robert replies: You and Mr Georger must have missed your Wheaties today. Sure, it's obvious I mistook the rated weight load of the sale parachute (400 lb) for its actual shipping weight. Big deal. As the post said clearly, it's rated at 400. __________________________________________________ Big deal? That's it, that's all you have to say? It's amazing how you downplay your ignorance of the topic at hand --only when it's convenient for you. 400 pounds? Maybe you thought we were talking about the "biggest loser" reality show. The guy got down to 225 pounds, you know. Amazing, huh? MeyerLouie __________________________________________________ But both of you missed the main point completely, and that surprised me. (In the case of Georger, he is so rabid to jump on any post I make, I think he did it deliberately. Let's face it. It's a habit for him now.) __________________________________________________ Any idea, at this point, why you think this might be happening?? Just an accident? You're getting picked on for no good reason? MeyerLouie __________________________________________________ I also pointed out that the cargo chute had a six-digit serial number, was made by Hayes Manufacturing, and has several stenciled markings showing it was made under a government contract. Meanwhile...the Amboy chute also had a six-digit number, but other than the Date of Manufacture tag (2/21/1946), NO OTHER IDENTIFYING MARKS. You were both so busy picking at me with your insults that you didn't even realize what was being said. Still don't get it? Don't feel like going back to my original post? Need to have it explained to you step by step? Okay...wait for it now...here it is: Because the Amboy chute has no identifying marks indicating it was government contracted or government issued... And because both the Amboy chute and the Hayes cargo chute have six digit serial numbers.... And because both chutes were manufactured in the same time frame... That it is possible BOTH chutes could have been manufactured by Hayes... (*Light is coming on now*) But due to the fact that the Amboy chute has no additional government marks or stencilings.... _________________________________________________ Your attempt at being condescending, when you have absolutely no credibility, is laughable at best. You speak about things you know nothing about -- pretty much on a regular basis here, and you wonder why you attract vitriol??? Time to check into the reality hotel. MeyerLouie__________________________________________________ That it is possible the Amboy chute was NOT a cargo chute, but made for CIVILIAN use. It would not REQUIRE any government markings. So the question remains: If it isn't an old military chute, than what is it, and how did it end up buried not far off the flight path of 305? Plain enough? Credibility, my eye. I see Huked on Fonics in someone's future. __________________________________________________ Credibility, your eye is correct -- you don't have any, Grasshopper. Plain enough? MeyerLouie _________________________________________________ Georger: As I said previously, NO. I don't believe Cossey's explanation that because the Amboy chute (he says) is made out of silk and not nylon...that this is why it can't be Cooper's. Maybe it isn't Cooper's. But that explanation doesn't make sense. Since you support that explanation wholeheartedly, (you've SAID so) I would like to hear why you think Cossey is right. Can't have it both ways. You've said you would believe anything he says over me. Fine. Then WHY do you think he's right in saying the chute is silk when all the available info casts that into serious doubt.

Damn! I wish you hadnt posted that! Doncha know that all cargo parachutes weigh 400 pounds? Blevins carries one around everyday just for exercise .... the 400 lb Haynes jockey strap! 4 Clydesdale gonads abreast! Sorry. I was going to let Blevins continue just to see how far he wold go with this ... it's classic Blevins-speak. __________________________________________________ Blevins: This is a classic example of why you have no credibility -- speaking about parachutes and skydiving stuff you know absoluely nothing about. Notice the other non-skydivers and folks here who don't know much about parachutes and skydiving are not speaking much here. Maybe that's something you ought to try sometime. Speak only when you know what you're talking about or have some valid information to offer. Otherwise, be quiet! Unbelievable! MeyerLouie

That is GOOD! Got my laugh before I tuck myself in! Made some big decisions tonight - Now I just need to follow thru. Sell the house and go HOME. Thing is I don't know where HOME is any more! Will take a loss, but thought I could wait out the market and get thur the Cooper thing. BUT time to get on DOWN the ROAD as Duane always said. Come on Jo let get on down the Road. Lets get this SHOW on the ROAD! Wonder if Cooper said anything like that to Tina or the crew during the skyjacking? REALLY wierd that is what is going thru my mind tonight. Got some estimates on making repairs to the house - not bad, but do not know what I will find on the other end. Obviously been a good day if I think I can make a move - yet, I am sure to have a melt down. Need some strong guys to help me out and keep my mind focused on going home - back to an area I know people and where there are more activities for seniors. Just wasting away here - not where I want to die. I have lived in so many places I do not know what home is. Need a small town alway from hurricances and away from tornadoes - is there such a place? If I survive a move I might make a trip to WA and make a jump to dump Duane's ashes and say good buy - REALLY say good buy. Sure some of you would help. Can't stand hot humid weather and though about N. Georgia and South & North Carolina. Daughter in Georgia, but I can't afford the homes there. Moving will be a big ordeal - need a good driver to drive the truch and some healty men to unload it. Come on guys help me find a location - that is the biggest part of this .....make some suggesgtions. Help me find my final home. Small town with the major stores in it and not hard to get around. Need a new life. So bring on the suggestions. Can't be over 150K with 3 bedrooms and an open plan with 2 car gargarge and some strong guy to help me place the furniture. Like open airy light and bright homes with easy to keep lawns. Small college near by to keep my mind sharp. A museuem, a little theather and seniors who like to do THINKS not just sit and rock and die. Serious - anyone with some suggestion - fire them off. Send me on a little trip. Need a good hospital and senior complex - there are NO senior complexes here unless one wamts to residid in Central FL - NO WAY Hosea! Make some suggestion - where woud Coopers widdow migh find her final resting place and some good friends. YOU all live all of the world . Send pics. Getting too hard to live in Florida and I just want to go back to being Jo and haveing some fun and not being tied to Cooper - put him all over the place. Ready to do this - just need some encouragement. Here i am a freak on the loose. I guess my medication has be feeling pretty good about now - u think! __________________________________________________ Jo: How about Ariel, WA? Oh wait, no museums, no colleges. Why not move to Cooper country, like east Vancouver? Nice country there, you might be able to find something in your price range. You think about the case all the time, why not move into Cooper country and get down to business? MeyerLouie

Okay, now. Let's be fair about this. You were the one who brought it up originally. The better place to do that would be over in Bruce's article at his newspaper site, on the comments section. It was YOU who went to the article, then made your draft dodging comment here...right? I see both of us as guilty. You for starting it, me for continuing it. If you guys want to debate the morality of the draft and Vietnam, we should just take it over to Speakers Corner. I'll agree this isn't the proper thread for it. __________________________________________________ Blevins: It was here, on this forum, that Bruce provided the link to his Mountain News article about his interview with the copycat hijacker. Therefore, he is responsible for it and its contents here -- not just there, Blevins, here! One more thing: just because someone brings something up here doesn't mean you always get to finish it. I know, you think this is your self-appointed duty to do so. I think you're being just a bit too helpful, it's TMI. Practice more humility, Grasshopper. MeyerLouie

You are incorrect, Meyer. I am not a dodger of anything. I certainly don't dodge killing. I simply pick and chose who I want to kill, why, and when. I never ask anyone to do my killing for me. I didn't ask the millions of guys who went to Vietnam to kill any commies for me. Never. In fact, I asked them not to go. They chose not to listen to me. I loved them and let them go. When they returned I healed those that I could at the Northport VA for two years. I never asked for a thing from them, other than a pay check from their government every two weeks. As for the guys who are in wheel chairs, would you feel more comfortable if I joned them? Why? If you would like to know who I have killed and why, I'm happy to tell you, but it's gonna cost you a couple of beers. It's the price of truth these days. __________________________________________________ Bruce: What you do at times is interject your personal pespectives into your stories, and somtimes those little personal snippets are inflammatory. It's not the first time you've done it, and I know you do it on purpose. Those little personal snippets you always find necessary to interject into your stories only tell on you and only serve to reveal a little more about the real you. Tell me, what the hell does your intentions to dodge the Vietnam War draft have to do with the DB Cooper case? It's a revelation that is so irrelevant, unnecessary, and inflammatory --especially in this day and age. You're a trip dude. Meyer

You are incorrect, Meyer. I am not a dodger of anything. I certainly don't dodge killing. I simply pick and chose who I want to kill, why, and when. I never ask anyone to do my killing for me. I didn't ask the millions of guys who went to Vietnam to kill any commies for me. Never. In fact, I asked them not to go. They chose not to listen to me. I loved them and let them go. When they returned I healed those that I could at the Northport VA for two years. I never asked for a thing from them, other than a pay check from their government every two weeks. As for the guys who are in wheel chairs, would you feel more comfortable if I joned them? Why? If you would like to know who I have killed and why, I'm happy to tell you, but it's gonna cost you a couple of beers. It's the price of truth these days. __________________________________________________ So melodramatic Bruce, and highly inappropriate to be discussing it here. MeyerLouie

_________________________________________________ Bruce: I enjoyed your articlel. It provides a little more insight for sure. I wished, though, you had not revealed your intentions about being a Vietnam draft dodger. I have very strong feelings about that issue, and this is certainly not the appropriate place to discuss it. Suffice it to say, I have friends in wheel chairs today who wouldn't give it a second thought about going into harms way again for their country. Meyer Meyer: Bruce's draft status discussion was in his own article, not at Dropzone. Good article, by the way. Being forced into a possibly immoral war by a government acting immorally...will sometimes force a MORAL response from people. There is no doubt that Vietnam tore the US apart. Riots, marches, daily doses from Cronkite on the evening news, and between 50,000-100,000 people fleeing from the war up to Canada. There is also the issue of exemptions, which few of poverty or color could obtain - another morality question that often arises about the Vietnam War. There is also a distinctive difference between draft-dodging and desertion. Canada has a history of sending deserters back to the USA. Deserters are not worthy of sympathy because they already took the oath. There will always be two views on the morality of the draft and our participation in Vietnam. I think we should leave it that. __________________________________________________ Blevins: Shut your pie-hole! I purposely avoided getting into this discussion (as strongly as I feel about it), because it is not appropriate or relevant to this forum. So, what do you do? You get on your high horse and go for it. I don't give a rats ass about your opinion of the Vietnam War. That discussion is not appropriate here. But being appropriate has never been a high priority for you, has it? You're out of line. MeyerLouie

_________________________________________________ Jo: I think Blevins' suggestion is a good one -- get organized, and get someone to help you get organized. This post is a good example of why maybe you should heed the suggestion. One of the longer posts I've seen in a while from you -- it's a bunch of disorganized meanderings, recollections, thoughts, the FBI sucks and always will -- maybe take the top 10 things you've spent time on these past 17 years and try to sythesize the information into 10 pages. Just do it off the top of your head. Start somewhere. It seems you are expecting the forum to help you sort out and organize all your stuff. You've taken the "throw enough spaghetti on the wall, maybe some of it will stick" approach. Won't happen Jo. Organizing your thoughts, theories, and ideas has to come from you, not the forum. Keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always got. MeyerLouie

__________________________________________________ In case I didn' say thanks, thanks for these websites Blevins. They look possible -- I'll look closer when I get a chance. MeyerLouie

_________________________________________________ Bruce: I enjoyed your articlel. It provides a little more insight for sure. I wished, though, you had not revealed your intentions about being a Vietnam draft dodger. I have very strong feelings about that issue, and this is certainly not the appropriate place to discuss it. Suffice it to say, I have friends in wheel chairs today who wouldn't give it a second thought about going into harms way again for their country. Meyer

__________________________________________________ Yet, after 17 years, you have not provided one slice of evidence to indicate your guy was the guy. You may have had promising leads in the past, but you've been so secretive, so protective of your turf, everything is always on the Q-T -- seems like nothing ever gets off the ground, nothing ever comes of anything. You do research you're not really qualified to do, maybe that's why you have never made much progress. You use an old dial-up computer, when others have told you it'll only cost you $100 to get current with the technology. Others have offered to help you, but you put up so much resistance, they just go away. Besides wanting to just torture yourself, what do you really want? You've spent 17 years obsessed with something, but you have pretty much come up empty-handed. I've gotta hand it to you, I would have given up long ago, you're one of the most persistent people I've ever known -- that's for sure. To have come up with so little after so long -- well, that takes a special person. You keep doing what you've always done, you keep getting what you always got. MeyerLouie Exactly what are U wanting me to publically reveal? I can't give co-ordiates of the area because I don't know them - just the approx boundary lines. If I could get to WA that would help with that. The watches - I will make known only to the FBI. NO ONE ELSE other than the back-ups sent to an attorney and to someone else qualified - they could NOT be made public unless the FBI ID's them - I want to send pic to Florence and Tina - but that is the responsibility of the FBI and not for me to intrude on their lives. What ELSE are you wanting me to make public - OH! MOUSE? That again will only be sent with the pics of the watches. I have already told U a man U need to talk to and he is NOT going to talk to JUST anyone. The Spokane Record - that is there just for the asking and going to the archives. The connections to Derry - U have that infromation - have U not contacted him? I can't make DEAD people TALK. THey were willing to TALK until the FBI scared the SHIT out of them - now they are both dead. As for Tommy - they ignored that one! Now his is either relocated or deceased. The Richard Paperlegs connection they IGNORED until he was deceased. The 1962 - 1968 - Jefferson that was conveniently taken care of except the FBI did NOT know I had communications with one of the Jefferson employees who stated differently before the back records where destroyed. She can be identified by her email address which was a gov. address at the prison...unless that has been swept under the carpet also. TELL me what else do you need. __________________________________________________ Evidence? MeyerLouie

[Good Luck with the Cooper search. You will never find him because I had him all along! __________________________________________________ Yet, after 17 years, you have not provided one slice of evidence to indicate your guy was the guy. You may have had promising leads in the past, but you've been so secretive, so protective of your turf, everything is always on the Q-T -- seems like nothing ever gets off the ground, nothing ever comes of anything. You do research you're not really qualified to do, maybe that's why you have never made much progress. You use an old dial-up computer, when others have told you it'll only cost you $100 to get current with the technology. Others have offered to help you, but you put up so much resistance, they just go away. Besides wanting to just torture yourself, what do you really want? You've spent 17 years obsessed with something, but you have pretty much come up empty-handed. I've gotta hand it to you, I would have given up long ago, you're one of the most persistent people I've ever known -- that's for sure. To have come up with so little after so long -- well, that takes a special person. You keep doing what you've always done, you keep getting what you always got. MeyerLouie

Frankly, those shroud lines look as if they have a larger diameter than personnel parachute shroud lines. Robert99 Who knows? Maybe it's a cargo chute, after all. Too bad the FBI just didn't say 'It's a cargo chute'. Would have made things much easier for everyone investigating the case, instead of going with Cossey's 'It's silk' story. I have to admit that thing looks pretty large, and the lines thick. I wonder if it would even FIT into an NB-6 container. Georger says in part: Ever see me claim to be a 'Cooper Expert'? How do YOU know my financial situation? Answer: You don't. I'm a good saver. And for other reasons that are none of your business, I don't worry about what I will live on after retirement. Nobody 'hedged' anything. I did interviews, Porteous checked out people. We did the book. Big deal. Fact: Everyone knew making any real money on Cooper was never going to happen. And I've already pointed out that I turned down thousands of dollars for television appearances. If I were really in it 'for the money,' I would have snatched up those offered checks and ran to the bank. You have serious personal issues in my opinion. You lied about Geoff Gray, you've made fun of how I make a living, trashed my wonderful Gayla, (pic attached as a reminder) and pulled out all the stops...including five posts in a row yesterday where you mostly engaged in baiting. You're obsessed. Give it up. Get help. Your hatred is making you a wreck. (*laughs*) I actually feel sorry for you sometimes. Must be tough being YOU. Seriously. __________________________________________________ Blevins, you're doing well, you don't get all riled up so much anymore...the counseling must be working. MeyerLouie

_________________________________________________ I believe I remember seeing him, because he was at the store when I dropped in to buy a snack, but I did not talk to him. I will remember to do so next time. Thanks. MeyerLouie

As a matter of fact, four miles is 'right on the nut' in terms of several people's prior calculations, done here in the Stone Age. I smiled when I saw Shutters figure, for that reason. Sluggo, Snow, Guru, myself, and others tried their hands at calculating drift scenarios, dead drop-terminal velocity, etc etc. It was like being back in physics 101 - fun! These skydivers do know their stuff! This period people doing calculations and discussion went on for some time, was very productive, and '4 miles' was one person's prediction ... so its not out of reason based on parameters previously introduced and discussed. Guru, make any corrections to my memory of this you need to - BTW, you can also refer to the original NWA map (what I call the probability drop map) to get their original estimates on this matter. (Sluggo hates it when I used that term for the NWA map -

__________________________________________________ I'll give it a try, thanks. MeyerLouie

_________________________________________________ Didn't say that Jo. How about some things that some people might be able to help you with? Treasure hunters? What treasure will they be hunting, and on what private property will they be hunting? I don't follow -- sounds a little paranoid to me. MeyerLouie

_________________________________________________ Blevins: I took your advice and I'm looking around in the places you suggested for some aerial maps of the DZ (or in that genital vasectomy) from 1970-71. It might take a while, as I will probably have to call around, check around, and/or drive around to get the information. MeyerLouie

__________________________________________________ It's a good question Jo. Someone is offering to help you. You don't have any evidence yet, why not quit being so paranoid and let someone help you answer some of those questions you've been asking for so many years? You keep doing what you've always done, you keep getting what you've always gotten. MeyerLouie

Blevins said: No one seems to know the exact spot, and the coordinates cannot be certain. THIS IS A FAR CRY FROM YOUR ORIGINAL STATEMENT WHERE YOU SAID YOU WEREN'T AT THE ARIEL CELEBRATION FOR MORE THAN 5 MINUTES BEFORE FINDING OUT WHERE THE AMBOY CHUTE WAS FOUND... EVERYONE AND THEIR DOG KNEW. YES, I'M YELLING -- YOU'RE WORSE THAN MITT ROMNEY WHEN IT COMES TO "WAFFLING." MeyerLouie __________________________________________________ One report says the chute was found BETWEEN Amboy and Ariel, not on the east side of Amboy. If this were true, it would put the chute closer to the flight path. As it is now, according to the alleged GPS/Google Map info the chute was approximately four miles off the flight path. And I admit I don't know if a drift of four miles from a 9,600 foot jump is possible, even if the upper level winds were westerly. So...what I will do is make a trip down to Ariel and locate the people who gave me the name of the property owners and then look up the name in property tax records for the exact location. Yes...a name was given to me. No...I didn't write it down. So I couldn't have told Meyer Louie anything even if I wanted to. Looking back, I should have made a note about it. Now, I feel like Chris Farley interviewing Paul McCartney for not doing so, and that's my bad for sure. At the time, I just didn't give it any thought. I had no plans to inquire personally. And I can't remember the name this nice couple gave me, but I DO know where the nice couple lives. So I guess I will have to go there again and ask, and this time write down the name. Then, we can all get an exact spot. I was planning to do this during summer, when Gayla and I go down to record their life story for the non-Cooper book. But I guess I could go alone, or with another Cooper Fan, earlier in the year, and talk to them strictly about the chute location. It was the woman, not the man, who told me they knew these people personally. And I had no reason to doubt her. One of the reasons is because they have lived in the area for decades, and were obviously solid people. And it may mean nothing, but neither of them were drinking at Ariel either. Both were sticking to soft drinks. Not surprising, considering what they've been doing for a living, and how they've set records doing it. I can't tell you what that is publicly, but privately I might, and I suppose I would have to if we (whomever 'we' is) made a trip down there together. And I still think 377 might want to inquire with the case agent in Seattle and get a look at the parachute, if possible. I also noticed someone else thinks the chute was actually discovered BETWEEN Amboy and Ariel...closer to the flight path...and they did this short video about it. __________________________________________________ Since I last discussed our trip to Amboy (Bruce and I) in search of the location of the parachute, interesting things have been said: Georger reiterated that he didn't say he knew the exact location of the Amboy chute, Jo said the exact location was never determined, Bruce and I couldn't find anyone in Amboy who knew, or admitted they knew, diddly squat, and I have yet to see a map presented here since that actually nails down the precise location. Lots of talk -- a general map of the Amboy area or a general description of the area doesn't cut it. You can't just say it was in Amboy or between Ariel and Amboy -- that's a huge area! My pickup got a good workout the day Bruce and I drove around the Amboy area. I'll say it again, I heard lots of people say they thought they knew where the chute was found, but they didn't know, they just thought they knew (Dona Elliott was one of those people). Blevins, I hope that couple at the Ariel party pans out, I hope they know something. It may not help us solve the case, but you never know. It's better to have too much and not need it, than need it and not have enough.... "Can I get an amen from ya?? I said, "Uh-Yeah-ya!" MeyerLouie

_________________________________________________ Blevins: I read all of the newspaper citations you had re: Amboy chute in your earlier post. One of the articles says the FBI consulted other experts, not just Cossey. I'm not seeing any real gross negligence or major oversights by the FBI-- it just isn't there. The FBI conducted an investigation of the Amboy chute, they made their conclusions, they stated those conclusions. They did what they do. So what? You and Jo are constantly labeling anything and everything the FBI did do, does, or will do as flawed, incomplete, and/or incompetent. Not even the most incompetent organization in all the world of incompetent organizations can always be that incompetent. I guess when the FBI starts including KC and Duane Weber in their conclusions, then, and only then, will their analysis and conclusions be valid. It's getting old -- you and Jo slamming the FBI all the time, not just some of the time, all of the time. Maybe you two need to change the broken record. MeyerLouie

QuoteI hardly know how to respond to some of the previous posts. So I don't think I will. __________________________________________________ This might be one of your wiser moves, Blevins. Pissin' contests get kind of old and boring. Meyer Louie

__________________________________________________ Jo, Are you alright? The last couple of sentences in your post here look pretty disheveled -- lots of misspellings too -- that's not like you. You're not yourself -- are you feeling okay? You're okay, good!.................... Jo, You keep talking about the tower, the cemetery, the trip you and Duane took, your fuzzy memories of what things looked like back then. But when people (not JT) offer to help you find those landmarks, you clam up, you say it's something you have to do all by yourself. So, my question is: what's the deal with all the secrecy? You're a mystery? Are you afraid someone else is going to get the cre.it and notoriety for all the hard work and commitment you've put in these past 20 years? Let's say Duane really is DBC. If you have real information -- underneath all of those fuzzy recollections and behind all of those vague memories -- then why not let others help you uncover it? Your health is failing, your memories are fading, and you do not have the physical and financial resources to investigate the things you want to investigate (these are your words). Yet, in spite of your obsession with the case, you do not have one shred of evidence, in these past 17 years, that backs up your story. I thought the purpose here was to get at the truth and solve the case (these are your words too). You're spinning your wheels, and they've been spinnning for a long, long time now. It's okay to ask for help. I, for one, will never steal anything from you. I'm here because it's fun to be here -- and I think there are many others here who feel the same way -- and would help you in any way they could. MeyerLouie