nerdgirl

I appreciate the intention toward open-mindedness -- I'd like to advocate open-mindedness in many more endeavors than science, to include DZ.com

Is that the oppositive of secular progressives ? Religious fundamentalism of any flavor -- global salafism or biblical literalism -- frightens me, along with a nuclear-armed Iran and multi-drug resistant pathogens. Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Cudlo - You are correct that PET and fMRI are rarely done for diagnosis, which was what I wrote. There's an extensive literature showing the changes in neurotransmitter activity (e.g., dopamine, calcium channel activity). A few examples from the secondary literature: -- http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/457770 -- http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/36/18/18 -- http://journals.cambridge.org/production/action/cjoGetFulltext?fulltextid=205810 Search "adhd" and "pet" or "fmri" on PubMed for the technical literature, e.g., http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Search&db=PubMed&term=dopamine+pet+adhd&tool=QuerySuggestion I think that you and I have different definitions of diagnosis. As far as I am aware, untrained individuals pretty commonly are the first observers of symptoms, e.g., coughing of bronchitis, flu-like symptoms, pain of a broken leg. A diagnosis is done by somone who is supposed to have some advanced training. I'm not particularly skeptical that your figure is generally in the correct range, would like to see some data before I would cite it, however. Your statement speaks to issues of the current state of medical care in which doctor-patient time is minimized not to whether something has a nuerochemical origin or is ascribed pejoratively to parents wanting better bahaved kids & a sign of lack of perceived standard of self-responsibility. I would prefer there be some standardized method/scale, however rough it might be, as a first attempt to provide indicators. That's one reason why we have thermometers - "cold" to someone in Miami in May is very different that "cold" to someone in Siberia in January. "32F" is provides a standard reference. I am sympathetic to many of the problems that you noted w/r/t trying to apply one standard to different people. People are different and have different situations. That doesn't, however, invalidate ADHD as a having a physiological origin. Actually there has been a substantial amount of research on neurochemical imbalances in children. Here's a whole issue of a leading brain research journal devoted to one type of imbalance: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=PublicationURL&_tockey=%23TOC%234840%231998%23999059998%2315135%23FLA%23&_cdi=4840&_pubType=J&view=c&_auth=y&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=ce7971093f4b74f14ce7d2d97494e0b3 There are at least three NIH study sections that deal with the issue: Biobehavioral Regulation, Learning and Ethology [BRLE] Study Section Developmental Brain Disorders [DBD] Study Section Molecular Neuropharmacology and Signaling [MNPS] Study Section The SSRI issue was not one of lack of technical knowledge or lack of research indicators but of the pharmaceutical market, which is another major issue but still not the original one. Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Hmmm, would you include Alzheimer's or Parkinson's in your subject line "etc"? Like ADHD, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's diagnosis have become hot topics in both the medical and non-medical communities in the last 30 years. Alzheimer's Disease was not considered a major disease or disorder until the 1970s. The biochemical changes in the brains of Parkinson’s patients were not identified until the 1960's. Like ADHD, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's are most commonly diagnosed based on symptoms. An autopsy is required to unequivocably validate Alzheimer's (to observe the associated amyloid plague formations surrounding the brain's neurons). Parkinson's, as many of us know from (unofficial?) diagnosis of Pope John Paul II, is associated with very observable physical symptoms - uncontrolled shaking - still a symptomatic-based diagnosis. Neuro-imaging tools such as PET and f-MRI are required to observe the altered norepinephrine and dopamine receptor density/activity in certain areas of the brain of ADHD. Specific genes associated with ADHD have also been identified. (PM me if you want a list.

Cheaper was the argument, but thus far DTS has turned out to be neither cheaper nor better. GAO investigations have found that (1) the predicted savings in both direct expenses and reduced personnel are not occurring, (2) the citation used to support the argument for DTS are suspect See: http://www.gao.gov/docdblite/details.php?rptno=GAO-06-980 The whole system is less than adequate. I'm sure that others have worse "horror" stories than I do. One recent stupefyng experience was an attempt to combine two trips on the west coast. The first was being paid by my office and the subsequent on fund cite from a service. The latter travel authority refused to approve my flying directly from Los Angeles up to San Jose then back to DC. He wanted me to fly back to DC then get on another plane (literally two hours later) & fly back out to the west coast, which in addition to wasting my time & taxpayers' dollars also would have made me late; he insisted that I had to depart from & return to my permanent duty station. The goal of my job is NOT to acquire frequent flyer miles on the taxpayers' expense. Marg Excerpt from the GAO report: "GAO's analysis of the September 2003 DTS economic analysis found that the two key assumptions used to estimate annual net savings were not based on reliable information. Two cost components represent the majority of the over $56 million in estimated net savings--personnel savings and reduced commercial travel office (CTO) fees. In regard to the personnel savings, GAO's analysis found that the $24.2 million of personnel savings related to the Air Force and the Navy was not supported. Air Force and Navy DTS program officials stated that they did not anticipate a reduction in the number of personnel, but rather the shifting of staff from the travel function to other functions. The Naval Cost Analysis Division stated that the Navy will not realize any tangible personnel cost savings from the implementation of DTS. In regard to the CTO fees, the economic analysis assumed that 70 percent of all DTS airline tickets would either require no intervention or minimal intervention from the CTOs, resulting in an estimated annual net savings of $31 million. However, the sole support provided by the DTS program office was an article in a trade industry publication. The article was not based on information related to DTS, but rather on the experience of one private sector company. Furthermore, the economic analysis was not prepared in accordance with guidance prescribed by OMB and DOD. DOD guidance stated that the life-cycle cost estimates should be verified by an independent party, but this did not occur. The economic analysis did not undertake an assessment of the effects of the uncertainty inherent in the estimates of benefits and costs. Because an economic analysis uses estimates and assumptions, it is critical that the imprecision in both the underlying data and assumptions be understood. Such an assessment is referred to as a sensitivity analysis. D OD acknowledged that DTS is not being used to the fullest extent possible, but lacks comprehensive data to effectively monitor its utilization. DOD's utilization data are based on a model that was developed in calendar year 2003. However, the model has not been completely updated to reflect actual DTS usage. The lack of accurate utilization data hinders management's ability to monitor progress toward the DOD vision of DTS as the standard travel system. GAO also found that the military services have initiated actions that are aimed at increasing the utilization of DTS. Finally, GAO found that DTS still has not addressed the underlying problems associated with weak requirement management and system testing." Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

"Support", eh? I wonder if combat aviators and pilots would consider themselves "support" or the families of the 62 women who have been killed in Iraq & Afghanistan? Honestly & non-sarcastically, do you really not realize how condescending restriction to "support" jobs sounds? Where do you see women in stability operations? It is DoD policy that: "Stability operations are a core U.S. military mission that the Department of Defense shall be prepared to conduct and support. They shall be given priority comparable to combat operations and be explicitly addressed and integrated across all DoD activities including doctrine, organizations, training, education, exercises, materiel, leadership, personnel, facilities, and planning." DoD 3000.05 A major thrust of the 2006 Quadrennial Defense was "stability, security, transition, and reconstruction." __________ The DoD is moving forward (even if some don't like it). While very, very far from combat, my experience has been that the overwhelming majority of the military officers (including GOs) and SESs recognize the value of women service members and civilians, in more than "support" roles. There are still are occasional problems (or troglodytes, as an O-6 colleague calls them) - just the other day I had an O-3 address me as "Ms." & ask if I kept an O-6's calendar ; before I could even respond, the 3-star "corrected" him (to put it diplomatically). My leadership and strategic abilities are valued (not "support" skills). Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Today's Washington Post features an article on service women dying in Iraq and Afghanistan: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/30/AR2006123001033.html "In all, 62 service women from all branches have died in Iraq, about two-thirds of them in hostile fire. By comparison, in World War II, historians say, 16 women were killed in action. In Vietnam, one woman's life was claimed by enemy fire; in the Persian Gulf War, five." A couple of the arguments made in this thread are addressed, specifically the argument that deaths of women (including at least 13 mothers) -- women returning home in body bags -- would result in an outcry: "Instead, the casualties appear to have melded into the nation's experience of war." "'I think people have come to the sensible conclusion that you can't say a woman's life is more valuable than a man's life,' said retired Air Force Brig. Gen. Wilma Vaught ... 'We don't want to lose any of them.'" My opinion -- & it's just that –- eventually it will become a non-issue. The very, very, very few women who can meet the standards (don't lower the standards, including the non-physical one like language training, for anyone!) and who want to go through Special Forces training will eventually be allowed. Very few men can make it through the training. Special Forces are being increased. At the same time, nearly a third of Navy SEALs are medically discharged due to damage to vertebrate from riding on their rigid hull crafts (search: OFT Stilletto M-hull craft). Additionally, not all guys who go through Special Forces training, remain or serve in Special Forces operations, e.g., I know an Army Ranger (COL) who now serves as Chief of Staff in a Pentagon office in which 3/4rds of the military officers have PhDs or MDs. His ability to lift, haul, or march is not relevant. The reality and relevance is that Special Forces training & experience matters for promotion, especially to General Officer (& perhaps, it should?). Women will die serving in military and stability operations. As the DoD becomes increasingly involved in more stability operations (see DoD Directive 3000.05), a larger percentage of women service members are likely to be put in harm’s way. In the current situation women are primarily engaged in such operations: “[w]omen make up 11 percent of deployed U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. But because they do not serve in traditional "frontline" combat units -- infantry, artillery, armor, Special Forces -- their casualties are proportionately smaller, 2 percent of the lives lost.” Rather than single large incidents of death or offensive operations that would focus great attention (vaguely akin the perception of risk and attention given to a single plane crash versus lots of automobile accidents), I don’t foresee large public outcry. Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

In not any small part, it is because the self-identified Christian group targets homosexuals. And in their twisted mindsets, US soldiers, sailors, airmen & marines -- whether gay, lesbian or not -- are somehow complicit in their perceived aggrievances against God (along with just about everyone else who dies whether from the Space Shuttle explosion or Hurricane Katrina). Their homepage also links to "godhatesfags.com." The Westboro Baptist Church also consider marrying a divorced woman (e.g., Betty Ford) to be adultery. That behavior along with “reach(ing) out to gays and lesbians ad call for their inclusion in the GOP” led the group to conclude that “Ford is to blame in large part for making America--Land of the Sodomite Damned.” Others who have been targeted by the Westboro Baptist Church include: “Pope John Paul II, the Great Pedophile Pope, is in hell” and Pres. Ronald Reagan: www.godhatesamerica.com/html/Reagan.html Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Only my opinion: if closed, it would have had a negative impact on my brief time (~2 yrs) in BASE. For personal and security clearance reasons, I don't do illegal jumps. If TF bridge wasn't available I probably would have done a couple jumps at NRG, then gone to Norway (with ensuing 6 months between jumps); rather than get a few dozen jumps in at TF, including a few three weeks before going to Norway. Overall: the legal status of the bridge has been a good thing. Do my choices & rationale reflect the "average" BASE jumper (whoever that person is) - probably not. I've stopped jumping for the time being because I felt I wasn't doing it regularly enough to maintain the skill set that I judged necessary. I plan to return to BASE in a few years; selfishly, I want the TF bridge legal & open. Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Know: Herb Abrams (Intl Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War) Jean Marie Lehn (declined a post doc in his lab) George Olah Bob Grubbs Paul Lauterbur Met: Mohamed ElBaradei Wolfgang Ketterle Glenn Seaborg (RIP) Linus Pauling (RIP) Rick Smalley (RIP) Hans Bethe Joseph Rotblat (RIP) Peter Aberhard (Medicines Sans Fronteirs/Doctors Beyond Borders) Linda Buck Al Heeger Roald Hoffman Rudy Marcus Dick Schrock Linda Buck Bill Lipscomb Manfred Eigen Herb Brown (RIP?) Eric Kandel A handful others I’ve heard speak but haven’t really met. These folks are on academic lecture circuits before & after getting their prizes (*exception Kary Mullis, who mostly went surfing) Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

My packing mat has the pull-up cord sewn onto it for controlling the 3-rings. Thanks Kevin! I've also used a tent-stake through the center of the rings, which I'm sure I picked up from someone else as well. Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Does anyone remember (or have any familiarity with) McNamara's Project 100,000? Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

The US & USSR ratified the Outer Space Treaty in 1967 (http://www.state.gov/t/ac/trt/5181.htm), which includes “complete disarmament … to ban the orbiting and stationing in outer space of weapons of mass destruction.” It has principally been interpreted as dealing with space-based nuclear weapons, although the accord has been cited/used with respect to other systems. The accord has nearly 100 ratifications plus a couple dozen signatories. VR, Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Let's not confuse small with low-yield. It certainly was low-yield. I'm not sure there's independent evidence yet as to its physical size. Furthering Andy's point: See recent write-up in Chemical & Engineering News, http://pubs.acs.org/cen/news/84/i42/8442notw4.html "The consensus of scientists involved in nuclear nonproliferation is that the big underground disturbance in North Korea last week was not an earthquake nor was it generated by conventional explosives. It was almost certainly a nuclear test that did not go quite as planned." "The test registered around 4.0 on the Richter scale, indicating an explosive yield of between about 500 and 1,000 tons of TNT." "Richard L. Garwin, a key designer of the hydrogen bomb in the 1950s and a member of science- and defense-related government boards, explains that other nations' initial tests have been in the range of 5,000-15,000 tons for a relatively simple starter warhead." "He describes the North Korean test as a fizzle and a "waste of plutonium." He speculates the low yield was due to either poor design or preignition-the blowing apart of the device before it had fully functioned." "Paul G. Richards, of Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, and who has long been involved in the study of nuclear weapons tests, stresses that a 500-1,000-ton TNT explosion is still enormous. He says the seismograph of the North Korean explosion is different from those for earthquakes or conventional explosions. It also indicates the blast was shallow, a characteristic of a test." "Peter Zimmerman, an arms control expert now at King's College London, comments that "the North Koreans may have just taken the gold medal for the world's worst first nuclear test."" As you probably know, some reasonable (guest-)estimation w/r/t the "size" should back-calculatable. Since the CTBT is not in effect, the data is considered confidential and is shared only with those states who have signed the test ban treaty.* *This policy was modified after the December 2005 Indian Ocean tsunami. There are seismic monitors on the ocean floor http://www.seismo.ethz.ch/bsv/ctbto/ims.html; India and a few other southeast/south Asia countries are not signatories. Policy was changed to allow sharing seismic & hydroacoustic data related to tsunami warning. VR, Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Couple interesting analyses of the seismic signals and the initial calculated strength, by Jeff Lewis (Executive Director of the Managing the Atom Project at Harvard's Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs, http://armscontrolwonk.com: "But even at 4.2, the test was probablya dud. "Estimating the yield is tricky business, because it depends on the geology of the test site. The South Koreans called the yield half a kiloton (550 tons), which is more or less—a factor of two—consistent with the relationship for tests in that yield range at the Soviet Shagan test site: Mb = 4.262 + .973LogW "Where Mb is the magnitude of the body wave, and W is the yield. "3.58-3.7 gives you a couple hundred tons (not kilotons), which is pretty close in this business unless you’re really math positive. The same equation, given the US estimate of 4.2, yields (pun intended) around a kiloton. "No one has ever dudded their first test of a simple fission device. North Korean nuclear scientists are now officially the worst ever. "Of course, I want to see what the US IC says. If/when the test vents, we could have some radionuclide data—maybe in the next 72 hours or so. "But, from the initial data, I’d say someone with no workable nuclear weapons (Kim Jong Il, I am looking at you) should be crapping his pants right now." Nota bene: the Russians guestimated a higher seismic value. Repeat of India's claimed 43kT "thermonuclear" test in 1998? Doesn't mean that DPRK's nuclear intentions don't scare the beejezus out of me any less!!!! Don't want to credit them with greater capability than they really have. Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Fair enough; your point is taken. Would (note: I'm not asking "could") you provide the specific Nature & Science references that you mentioned? I searched using the key words suggested in your earlier post but found only those that I listed. Thanks! Couldn't agree more with you on your last point! Hence, my question on what you meant by "on balance." Semi-rhetorically, do you advocate that scientific technical journals publish/push through the peer-review process research articles that don't stand up to rigorous academic vetting purely so that the "other perspective" be presented? Or that vetted science not be published in order to give equal space to the other side? Only one out of some thousand manuscripts submitted to Science or Nature makes it to publication, largely because of competition. A slightly different version of the first scenario had been observed in medical journals in which researchers had not declared their financial ties to pharmaceutical firms. Congressional hearings are a completely different creature. Science policy and public policy in a democracy is much larger than facts ... as frustrating as that can be to scientists!

Would you point more specifically to those? Thanks! The only recent studies I have seen are: (1) Satellite Gravity Measurements Confirm Accelerated Melting of Greenland Ice Sheet http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/313/5795/1958 Science 29 September 2006: Vol. 313. no. 5795, pp. 1958 - 1960 Abstract: "Using time-variable gravity measurements from the Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment (GRACE) satellite mission, we estimate ice mass changes over Greenland during the period April 2002 to November 2005. After correcting for the effects of spatial filtering and limited resolution of GRACE data, the estimated total ice melting rate over Greenland is –239 ± 23 cubic kilometers per year, mostly from East Greenland. This estimate agrees remarkably well with a recent assessment of –224 ± 41 cubic kilometers per year, based on satellite radar interferometry data. GRACE estimates in southeast Greenland suggest accelerated melting since the summer of 2004, consistent with the latest remote sensing measurements." & (2) Insignificant Change in Antarctic Snowfall Since the International Geophysical Year http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/313/5788/827 Science 11 August 2006 Vol. 313. no. 5788, pp. 827 - 831 Abstract: "Antarctic snowfall exhibits substantial variability over a range of time scales, with consequent impacts on global sea level and the mass balance of the ice sheets. To assess how snowfall has affected the thickness of the ice sheets in Antarctica and to provide an extended perspective, we derived a 50-year time series of snowfall accumulation over the continent by combining model simulations and observations primarily from ice cores. There has been no statistically significant change in snowfall since the 1950s, indicating that Antarctic precipitation is not mitigating global sea level rise as expected, despite recent winter warming of the overlying atmosphere." From opening paragraph (requires subscription for full access): "Global sea level (GSL) has been increasing by 1.7 mm year–1 over the past century (1) and 2.8 mm year–1 over the past decade (2). One of the greatest uncertainties in predictions of GSL rise is the contribution of the Antarctic ice sheets (3). The Antarctic ice budget is balanced by the buildup of snowfall in the interior and wastage due to melting and calving of ice along the coastal margins. Future scenarios from global climate models (GCMs) suggest that Antarctic snowfall should increase in a warming climate, mainly due to the greater moisture-holding capacity of warmer air (4), partially offsetting enhanced loss at the ice sheet peripheries." "Perplexing temperature trends have been reported over Antarctica since continuous monitoring began with the International Geophysical Year (IGY) in 1957–1958, varying by the season, the region, and the time period analyzed (5, 6). A recent study suggests a strong tropospheric warming signal has been manifested over Antarctica during winters since the early 1970s (7), the season during which much of the continent receives its maximum snowfall (8). Satellite-based ice velocity and altimetry measurements indicate that the West Antarctic Ice Sheet (WAIS) has been thinning over the past decade, with a contribution to GSL rise of 0.13 to 0.16 mm year–1 (9, 10), consistent with widespread melting of ice sheet grounding lines (11). In light of these studies, it is essential to assess whether Antarctic snowfall has been increasing." What did you mean by "on balance"? Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

It appears that the video was made and originally distributed over eighteen months ago: "the media platoon of the Islamic Jihad Army. On the 27th of Shawal 1425h. 10 December 2004." Note the dates on these websites as well: http://www.aljazira.it/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=368 & http://www.justpeaceqld.org/article.php?story=20050118173308932#comments. Is there any evidence to suggest that the message to US and British soldiers has been successful ? I wonder if those western European values of free press (e.g., the Danish cartoons that were reprinted in France, Italy & Spain) and the prohibition on wearing religious scarves in public schools in France were the type that the video's narrator intended to support? Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

There's an interesting/provocative perspective on the Fallujah raid and Blackwater's impact on US military operations in a PBS Frontline documentary on contractors in Iraq, "Private Warriors" (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/warriors/). The voice that resonates most strongly and carries the most integrity (imho) ... and perhaps the most provocative ... was Marine COL John Toolan (active duty NOT retired) discussing how the military's strategic and tactical plans for Fallujah, as well as significant efforts to deal with the locals were completely interrupted and side-tracked after the four Blackwater security personnel were killed following the choices they made. COL Toolan discussed the pressure that the Marines came under to *react* in way that the Marines did not initially plan because of actions of private contractors. His own words -- as the guy who was there -- are more powerful: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/warriors/interviews/toolan.html. VR, marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

The program with my favorite title is "Time Reversal" http://www.darpa.mil/dso/thrust/math/time.htm When it was announced, the descriptor "mathematical" was not included -- sounded wonderfully audacious! Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Points of clarification: Is this a cut to Core program funding or termination of an earmark? Both of those are also complete terminations of programs. Have they been moved -- in whole or parts -- to another budget line? If previously earmarks, were they incorporated into the Core program? (Also under the HHS budget, "Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Congressional Earmarks" are terminated.) Are these being zero'd out of the President's budget request because OMB is willing to bet that Congress will restore them? Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

I've been surprised by the responses. Apparently my small-town, rural midwest (Michigan, & yes, it was & is a Republican district) was progressive. In 5th grade (for me, 1984), we got our first "sex ed." The boys were separated from the girls, we all had to get our parent's permission (& a couple kids did sit out), and we got the "period" talk. That was 5th grade sex ed. It was legendary on the schoolyard til you actually sat through it. (At most 2h.) 7th grade (or maybe 8th, it was middle school) was more the physiology of reproduction - a health class version of sex ed - including the birth process and some STD info. I don't remember abstinence or birth control being a big theme. Again had to have a parent's permission. (5h) Sometime in high school (9, 10 or 11), we had a more comprehensive sex ed class. Abstinence was emphasized as the only method that worked 100% but all forms of birth control (from pill to IUD to sponge) were discussed. And, the teacher rolled a condom down a banana. I don't recall any mention of homosexuality or AIDS. STDs and the effectiveness of abstinence, and condoms to a lesser degree, was noted. Once again, had to have a parent's permission. (2-5h).

I'll echo most of the references and suggestions already noted. Like skydiving, if you want to be *really* good, it takes time (to gain the skill, mental strategies,, and muscle memory), money (equipment, travel and fund jaunts to out of the way places) and luck (a number of great rock climbers at "low" altitudes, like Colorado, have found they they hit walls above 22,000 ft; some of it's just physiology). I've done a few ice-climbing clinics (Ouray), a dozen 14-ers (all non-technical), some more technically challenging 13-ers, Grand Teton, Mount Blanc, Fuji, and done a trek through the Khumbu to Everest with a group that went on to the summit (with another skydiver from Archway in Illinois.) I'm looking to do a trek to the Baltoro Glacier (Gasherbrum and K2) base camps next June. If you've got the money, Alpine Ascents offers a very highly regarded introductory courses to real mountaineering (which most of what I listed above is not,) I started about 10 years ago & have really not done much the last few years. Been some great experiences!!! Namaste, marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

More info: http://www.dtra.mil/divinestrake/index.cfm & http://www.dtra.mil/divinestrake/frequentAQ.cfm Interesting publication w/r/t the effectiveness of nuclear weapons against underground bunkers containing biological agents: http://cisac.stanford.edu/publications/effectiveness_of_nuclear_weapons_against_buried_biological_agents/ marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying

Pure speculation and pulling together thoughts from multiple replies: Could this (border security) be the pressing political crisis of the summer/autumn to make the withdrawal or drawing down of National Guard in Iraq a politically viable option for the administration ??? marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying