goose491

People try to put us d-d-down, just because we g-g-g-get around. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

The redundancy of the above is what is missing from too many a first jumper's original moment of truth IMO. As stated earlier, I'm not about not teaching per say... but that there is obviously potential to program grave errors in the way info on these items is say... digested? If you've got eye contact and more then two head nods out of a student whilst you cited the above, then I would be 100% certain that student would not pull a: "I was waiting for the RSL!" on you, if faced with a malfunction/cutaway. On the other side of the coin, not mentioning it at all until jump 2 or 3 would have the same effect. So much should be said about diversification of teaching technique for the individual student. If while one cited the above, they got nothing more then a glossy-eyed stare from the student, they might consider aborting it with: "Oh, nevermind these. We'll cover them later, it's not as important, for right now, as xyz..." Anyway, I just found your 'disclaimer' worth repeating. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

MMMMM yessss. Well, you can be pissed that somebody try and take advantage of someone else. That's what got me angry. Now he has listed it properly, knowing fully well that we are all watching. Had the listing just disapeared altogether, we would all be speculating as to where he went and whether or not he was trying to pull a fast one somewhere else. Now we all know that if this item is purchased, it is purchased by someone who will get what they are looking for. In my books, that was the best way the seller could have gone about rectifying his wrong doing. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

I got about as far as " I used to judge other instructors on their performance too..." and then I remembered how much you like to type I'm not judging anyone, nor am I out to revolutionize anything... merely making a few suggestions, and elaborations on the suggestions of others. Personally, I have no idea how such things as RSLs can be misunderstood. Personally, I think I could absorb much MORE info during the FJC then what was given me. Obviously, some cannot. Anyway, my suggestions and comments were made. They are recorded for all to see in this forum. That was my goal. Consider them, or don't. If you were to make a few, I might consider them. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

Good Show Bill. That's a great idea and I'll bet you'll get a lot of fun out of it too. These things are getting to be quite popular here in Toronto also. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

Cheeky cheeky! My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

No no, I think you're right. I don't think it was an "innocent mistake." But what we think on that matter is irrelevant. A mistake, it was. Caught him on it, we have. Corrected the listing, he has. All I'm saying is, throwing stones now will not accomplish anything positive. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

That's fine. Nobody is forcing you to keep an open mind about it. But I do ask that you consider the following: I do not suggest we not teach about RSLs and AADs per say. But I do express my confidence that a great problem lies within the way we go about doing it. A great number of jumpers do not understand them! Which means despite the instructors best intentions of getting their students the most accurate info possible... they are not. I explain using examples and I compare by using extremes. When I compare a student who has learned about these devices during the FJC to a student who has not, I see that the first 'relies' on nobody but him/herself whereas the second may feel they are doing the same, but in fact is not. You have obviously been teaching a certain way for a certain amount of time. And I understand that this lends itself to a certain amount of inflexibility. Also perhaps a certain dislike of having a newbie like me suggest that things might be better off a little different. But I assure you I want nothing more then a better future for us all, as I'm sure you do too. Maybe, as some have suggested, the answer is that a student should not hear a darn thing about these devices until they are safely on the ground after their first skydive. Maybe not. Maybe the answer lies in a small change in how these items are addressed (i.e. "...but forget about that. It's not important for now.") Maybe it is simply in the order in which things are taught. You are the teacher today.. I am merely a jumper who has gone through the progression, "recently" by comparison to you. I do not claim to have the answers... but such an inflexibility is definitely not one. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

We all make mistakes. As such, we must all allow room for redemption when redemption is due. The seller has corrected that which we thought was wrong. Give him that. Your post is destructive, not productive like the rest of this thread was. Nick My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

When somebody tells you you need good balance to walk a tightrope, what do they mean? Balance what? If you sensed that you were going to fall, it's because your centre of gravity was heading to one side of the rope, creating leverage to pivot you about your one point of contact with it, your feet. If you stuck your arm out on the opposite side and didn't fall, it's because you shifted it back to the other side momentarily, then settled it right back, top and centre. If your centre of gravity "never" moved from "directly above the rope", then we would all be able to walk a tightrope with relative ease. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

drying off in coversation you will be the one who cannot talk all your insides fall to pieces you just sit there wishing you could still make love My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

Uh, diaplo... I'm no greenie but wtf was that??!? Take a breath man. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

-uponone -uponone Methinks someone is just out to stir the pot. This thread IS about whether this is 'right' or 'wrong'. The people posting to it are hoping to prevent someone being taken advantage of. What are you hoping to accomplish? Nick My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

But there is a difference between "accurate" and "profuse". Nobody is suggesting you teach inaccurate info... What people are suggesting is that too much info is being provided to the first time jumper, that some of it is not relevant to the tasks at hand during the first few skydives, and that this is leading to information overload and truncated understanding of very important safety devices. You know bill, when you ask me this question about not telling the student about the JM who will be jumping with them, you do so sarcastically. When you couple it with: "I prefer that my students have information that is as accurate as possible, so that they can make the best possible decisions.", my immediate reaction was to ask you the equally sarcastic: "Why you don't teach your first jump course about the difference between pullout and BOC deployment systems or between D-bag and Freebag? Why don't you teach your first jump course about swoops, headdown and bigways? Why don't you teach your first jump course about square, elliptical and semi-elliptical canopies? About the engines in the plane and about the it's maintenance? ... etc. etc..." Surely you could provide accurate info about these things. As accurate as possible, so that they can make the best possible decisions. I happen to know why you don't, it's because you know that this info does not help them on their skydive with you today. This info should not change the mindset or performance of the student jumper today. This information will only complicate the assimilation of information that IS relevant today. .. then you blow me off with "feel free to teach your own students how you see fit." Well (as you are aware) I'm not an instructor. I'm just a fun jumper who cares enough about the sport to discuss some problems we are encountering at the fundamental level. I do so in an open forum which was desinged for just this sort of discussion. I may indeed chose to instruct one day. When I do, I will use much of the info I have obtained on and ascertained from these boards and people like you. Nick My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

No. Now I'm not sure if you're just teasing me (you are aware of the major differences.)... but I'll bite anyway. The jumpmaster is not something that will always be there. The student knows this. When the JM is there, the student is depending on them to a certain degree but it is a relationship agreed upon on the ground with an immediate goal. That goal is of progress to a point where the JM is no longer required on each skydive. Every student strives for the moment they no longer 'depend' on a JM being with them in the sky. This 'dependency' is not paralleled with the 'dependency' on their additional safety devices. (The one we are currently discussing) Also, plain and simply, we are not seeing people misunderstanding their EPs because of a dependency on their JMs We ARE seeing an epidemic of people misunderstanding their EPs because of information overload and/or truncated understanding of their gear. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

Imagine you're standing on a tightrope. You start to feel as though you are going to fall to one side of it. What do you do? You stick your arm out on the opposite side... maybe a leg too right? You had no leverage to stop the fall but now you are stable again somehow. What have you done to avert falling? When you lean forward in the harness, the centre of gravity of your body itself shifts. It shifts forward. Your canopy doesn't know the difference between a shift in c of g due to a change in your body position versus an actual shift of your mass and it responds by pitching upwards. This helps with flare (IS flare) without yet deforming the canopy with breaks. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

Hahaha, "don trib on ma tounga eida" My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

I continue this off-track journey... If the guy in front of you locks up his brakes, and you hit him, you weren't doing everything 100% right. And turning back towards the track... That's right. Because Ford isn't there to pay for damages incurred during your car accidents. Your insurance company is. But if you are operating the vehicle outside of the law or it's designed purposes... they won't. Nick My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

How is the AAD or RSL going to injur or kill them? An AAD can create a two-out. In this case, it's because the student pulled far too low. I'm sure you would have agreed upon a reasonable deployment altitude, knowing about the AAD will not prevent this mistake. An AAD can fire during a wrap situation too and that's bad... but knowledge of the AAD's presence would not avoid the wrap either. There is another thread in which you have spent much effort trying to convince me that an RSL will do me no harm... I therefore fail to see how you think a student not knowing about an RSL can end up hurt or killed by one. Telling the student about the AAD and the RSL opens the door to the possibility that they depend on it. Not telling the student about the AAD and the RSL means they will understand nothing will save them but them. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

buh-buh buh-buh.... Boobies

DOVE!! Dove I missed you. Prolly don't even remember me . lol where have you been? My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

'tis I! ... how are people responding to such an old post of mine?? My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

Mind issues. What turns you on is your mind. If you get a hard-on when you see boobies, it's because of some neurological pathway you have built starting at the perception of these boobies, taking a small detour in the subconscious mind, where you get to toy with the concept that they are yours to play with, creating the conscious thought "Hey, I like seeing naked boobies!" and finally continuing all the way to your erection. lol I can spend half a day with a woman in the nude and not think twice about it in a sexual manner. That half a day goes by and she makes one sexy remark? Hold the phone, I've got another half a day to play! N My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

It's funny, placing the tree upsidedown would in fact, be closer to the actual origin of the tradition in the first place. Late in the Middle Ages, Germans and Scandinavians hung evergreen trees or branches thereof inside their homes or just outside their doors to show their hope in the forthcoming spring or to promote life spirit in the mist of all the death of winter. Our modern Christmas tree evolved from these early traditions. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!