Zenister

your example is a parabol and of course has no biblical backing, besides your god destroyed the world and everyone except his chosen family in the flood remember?? how humanity got tossed out of the garden of eden and why is a myth... ps. who created your satan? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

nioce... that kind of ignorant, arrogant, condescendtion is exactly why i have so little respect for the majority of christians...you simply have no respect at all for anyone elses belief.. oh well your God will judge you for it i suppose.... hope its painful ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

i was not. Nor was anyone else who does not follow your faith. Your 'sacrifice' is meaningless and unnecessary for those of another path. this is a christian construct. as is Sin in the definition used by christian literature and priests, not the dictionary definition adopted by secular society. Your religion attempts to define God's will, and so creates its own definitions of Sin, these do not apply to those on other paths. Anymore than breaking a German tax law would apply to someone living and occupying the US. if you wish to redefine sin as breaking a personal moral code then we are having a different discussion entirely. different states, different paths. same issue applies to Karma. there is a religious definition and a secular defintion. the distinctions are important. Your mythos applies only to those of your faith. By your religious definition i am not a Sinner, I have never been and never will be, your religious constructs are meaningless to anyone who is not a christian. You can continue to assert that it applies to everyone and everything, but that does not make it true, it is only christian arrogance and condescension, not truth for those not of your faith. bumper sticker clichés aside, if you think what you do in THIS life is Karma affects THIS life, your understanding is completely flawed. Again there are religious definitions, and there are simpler, secular definitions...in order to accept Karma you MUST also accept reincarnation. Do you? btw..to continue your analogy, according to the myths of your religion, your god is the one who 'threw the grenade' in the first place... there is no grenade. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

I bet your just saying that because he and others in the band did some tandems at your dz! As pictured in this months Parachutist magazine. ?? eh whats that? i'm on the road and havent gotten my parachutist yet...CC and Audioslave? or was is Soundgarden era? He's made a jump? thats very very cool... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

cool!! go trade in all your dollars now for jump tickets I don’t deny anything. Sin is a christian construct, a christian concept that you hang the fundamental beliefs of your faith on. No i do not Sin. Nor will I ever. I would have to accept the tenets of your faith in order say that i have. Sin carries the implication of guilt. I am not and have never been a sinner. You chose to accept the burden of Sin when you accept your faith. I'm not basing at all. I am tired of being accused of killing your carpenter. I didnt, and suffer no guilt because of it. Nor am i (or any of my hypothetical ancestors) guilty of eating your apple or being tossed out of paradise because of that belief. Therefore there was nothing (for me, or any other non-christian who is following their belief faithfully) for your savior to die for, nothing he could possibly 'redeem' me for, his death in no way affects my Karma, or my relationship to the divine. It doesnt work that way in the first place. Your mythos only has meaning to you. I dont attempt to apply my beliefs to your life, and i would be ever so grateful (and we could leave off with a number of these discussions) if you would not apply yours to me and mine. They just dont fit. your also distorting Karma for the purpose of applying it to your belief structure, which is fine if you wish to try to use it that way, but really loses its meaning when taken so out of context, just as it would if i were to start referring to my life as a sinner or as saved without accepting the rest of your belief system. its pointless. context provides meaning. I do not need to be 'saved'. I was never lost, never separated from God in the first place. There is no grenade. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

havent had a cube in years...used to have one in PHX but they realized we were never in them so took them away and gave us a big common 'bullpen'. Then one week when everyone was off travel, in town the riot level from our section annoyed several adminosphere types so they gave us all cubes again...rotflmao.. now i have an office in WA i'm never in with a veiw of Mt. Rainer (when the clouds are gone) thru the concertinia wire... I worked for a company that used to set up cube space in highshchool. We installed this huge complex maze in one of the computer centers on Maxwell AFB..i have a picture somewhere thats taken at the right angle so that it appears that cube hell stretches to the infinite horizon....very very Brazil.

thanks for making my point again.... your truth. God has already given me hers. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

if you chose to think so, but you wont find a single post here (or anywhere else) stating that christians are tied to the wheel and destined to spend their next life reincarnated as swine (or any other animal) because they refuse to take responsibility for their own karma. that would be arrogant. very simply your belief has no bearing on the disposition of my soul, and mine in no way affects yours, but that never stops any christian from making the same broad statement such as nope sorry, just the christians and those who decide to adopt your faith and again for you, the christians. the rest of us dont need it, never have and never will, we have our own path to walk, and while different it is just as valid to God. Of course very few christians I’ve met are willing to accept that because their divisive dogma says ‘this way and no other!!!” [I]would be lovely if you’d at least attempt to separate the word of man from those of God in your book, but I guess the time revelation, enlightenment (and editing) is over for the christians …[/I] and uh yeah..ok sorry i dont need 'the boogie man' to scare me into become a better person... and nioce...so much love although the last part is reasonably accurate, its just the consequences for me (and other non-christians) are not what you think they are, while you pat yourselves on the back for your faith just a few examples from the last 3 pages..i really dont think its necessary to dig thru this whole thread (and the multiple others) to find numerous and continual examples of christian arrogance where everyone is accused of killing off your savior, as a necessary sacrifice for a hypothetical 'sin' by a common ancestor. and christians wonder why they encounter such resistance and persecution?? stop doing it to others in your proselytizing and rhetoric and you'd pretty much be left alone..and its really rather simple, all it requires one slight change in the way you talk to others about your belief. well that and skipping all the threats to scare me into conversion... no argument and no inherent accusation of guilt against everyone else who does not share your faith or belief. how do i know i'm not wrong? very simple faith. faith is the key to everything... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

for you perhaps, if you chose to believe it.. sin is your concept, as is the guilt and blood associated with it, and you can keep it, I and all the other non-christians in the world have no need for it, and its rather insulting to imply we do, so please stop trying to smear it on us... i dont question your level of satori, or beat you over the head about being tied to the wheel of karma. We didn’t have anything to do with the death of your carpenter, and it would be nice if you would stop accusing us of complicity in some cosmic conspiracy feel free to believe whatever you wish, just don’t assume it matters to me or God at all.. because really it doesn’t, and it doesn’t do much to help endear any consideration, or tolerance for your beliefs when you continually adopt such an arrogant position. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

Yup - If I had to choose only one it would most likely be them. Just read that David Crosby (Crosby, Stills and Nash) was arrested for possesion. As a band they weren't all bad either! yeah because some hotel cleaning staff smelled pot in the room and wanted to get their 15 sec of fame.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

i am not. i am and have always been part and parcel of God's glory...no 'blood sacrifice' necessary. i may not always be at my best, or as good as i should be, but i have not sinned and i am not damned so long as i walk my path honestly without intention. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

actually Hendrix sings it that way on several live recordings.. hmmm favorite rock band..depends on the mood..this eve... "low rock" aka Morphine.... "i remember meeting you we were super low, surrounded by the sounds of saxophones.." ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

ive seen them 11 times now..and honestly i'm sort of over it...they always put on a great show, but never take the risks to make it really exceptional.. i had a friend come down to PHX to see Vapor Trails...pushed her out of an airplane a few times at eloy while she was there...the funny thing was we had to leave early to make the show and she was like "we're leaving?? why!?!?!?" "well if you want to stay i'm all for it" "oh..hmm well we did already pay for tickets right?" "yeah" "can we come back tomorrow?"

catching the 30th Anniversary tour? tickets for more shows go on pre sale in the morning.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

I'm a systems engineer, who's systems are all else where, but the net is a big part of my job so there is always one machine somewhere logged in...which is why it often looks like i'm here even if i havent checked the site for a few hours... i also dont have a tv at home (well not hooked to cable) as really cant stand the stuff most times so the internet is my entertainment... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

still he's right.."history" claims no such thing. christian literature does. Not the same thing, no matter how much christians wish you to believe so. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

I know of at least one DZ that does (or did) things this way, it's nice. However I don't think it that this solution is even remotely practical for any of the larger DZs. Tickets aren't so bad, at least not once you get used to them. i know one that does...you get an account number, put it on the manifest sheet and pay up at the end of the day....or even the end of the weekend... of course its not the largest dropzone in the world, but it can get pretty busy when the weather rocks.. i prefer tickets to the account system like Perris has, for the exact LO reason you mentioned...its sometime a pain to get everyones last name/number to get everybody on the load..i know of a few occasions where by the time the dive organizer found every one to add to manifest the load had already filled the remaing slots.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

ROTFLMAO...that is halarious...but then i LOVE black humor.... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

see you were to blase' about it..should have gone from 'well yeah i really dont want to be here' to 'OMG this is an opportunity to talk about the BEST SPORT IN THE WORLD!!!' gotta let the closet psycho out if you want to scare people... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

You will not be exempt for this reason. sure you can, I was removed from AZ's list because of the nature of my job..I would get summons that would sit in my mail box for months, i missed 3 calls because i was out of the country. Took one phone call and a letter from the company and I was exempt… but honestly the easiest way to get out of it is to really to be yourself...right out of high school i was called for jury duty.. i went in full metal regalia..black leather jacket with the Holy Terror crucifix on the back, Motorhead ironcross on one sleeve Iron Maiden Killers album cover on the other, long hair, sunglasses, Megadeath 'killing is my business and business is good' t-shirt, worn out blue jeans...in Alabama.....less than 2 hours later i was walking out obviously they realized i wasnt anyone on trials 'peer'. The poor old lady next to me was nearly crawling in her neighbors lap and i was obscenely polite i think that scared her even more... i imagine "jumps from perfectly good airplanes" and staring distractedly out the window, would have near the same effect in most every state.... you could always tell them (honestly in my case) that you refuesed uphold or obey any law you believed unjust... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

wow thats pretty harsh...got any self esteem issues? actually i have a pullover i jump in very much like that..not Hugo though and its never been a problem at all zipper up or down.... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

do you only talk about skydiving around the fire? while your hanging out after the beer lights on?? Talk back is the fire of this virtual dropzone, a place to meet, hang out with, discuss and argue about everything and nothing skydiving related or not...sure some of the discussions get out of hand, and lots of things are posted that I consider drivel, but its easy to not read, or not participate in them...Talk back is where i go to chill and relax, the other forums are where i go to learn and ask questions from a wider variety of skydivers than i can meet at the DZs i visit... without talkback this site would not have developed into the community it is now, no matter what anyone thinks about any (or all) of the topics that pour through it... ps this thread belongs in Talkback ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

i guess you dont need a parachute since if its not your time to go your going to survive the fall.... you know i'm all for any philosophical/religious discussions, however throwing the word 'logic' into your argument is simply ignorant, and this is not the forum for such voodoo superstitions in the first place...take that shit to talk back where we can discuss it ad nausuim if you wish. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

Course correction? He made a bonehead decision to swoop the pond - prior to setting up for the swoop he could have changed his mind and landed elsewhere. lovely assumption, but thats all it is is an assumption. fact is he died because he turned to low. that is failure to react, you can speculate it was because he was impaired, but again its only a speculation, for all you know he'd made his last 100 hook turns under the same conditions.... The reason he died is that he was severely chemically impaired - that is not in dispute. Everything else followed from that. And he'd not swooped the pond previously. Teaching people how to get out of the corner when they are jumping high is not the way. Getting them not to jump high in the first place is the solution. A lot of the fatalites we read about would have been prevented by the exercise of better judgement before exiting (or even boarding) the plane and better judgement at 1000ft. Concentrating efforts on how to extricate yourself from situations you shouldn't have been in in the first place is secondary, IMO. that is absolutely in dispute, the reason he died was high speed impact with the ground, everything else is simple speculation..I said nothing about swooping that particular pond, i mentioned his previous 100 hook turns, do you have information on his intoxication level on those turns?? you can speculate he reacted badly beacuse of his intoxication level, however it is his reaction that killed him, NOT his intoxication level, but that incident is moot in to the real discussion in this thread.. there is nothing you can do to change what has already happened before you left, or while you were at 3000 feet, no matter why it happened or if it was preventable, there is however quite alot you can do to train yourself to react better when you are in a situation that is happening NOW...training for those eventualities, and examining the personal characteristics that determine how you react in such situations is equally as important as trying to prevent them in the first place. Otherwise your simply 'crying over spilt milk' and that wont do a damn thing to help you save yourself as it is happening.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

0:6:1 Cross Keys rocks! hope the weather gets better than its supposed to be early next week...hmmm if i can finish this project before the demo i can screw off more during the week....cheap jumps on wed... and wwwwwwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.