Zenister

ah the old "i wasnt aware of that rule" defense... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

If it was...some here would be dead. you would do this sillyness when i've just finished packing my shelves, so off the top of my head.......nice try..but no. 'wishes' is present tense, "was" is past tense, your version has incorrect verb tense constancy. you also may be unaware that italics implies third person, which affects the tense. {Zen} wishes ignorance were painful. I wish ignorance were past progressive. ie had been painful in the past and continued to be in the future painful. He/I wished past tense ignorance was (is also past tense, ignorance was once painful but is not any longer?) painful. My sentence is Present Progrssive, it expresses continuing action or state. 'wishes'=present, 'were' = started in the past and continued on. was you in pain? (when you were ignorant)? lol were you in pain (when you were ignorant)? The subject is present tense even if the question is directed toward a past event. No. because ignorance doesnt cause pain. No matter how much better off mankind would be if it did.

wishes ignorance were painful ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

I'll agree as long as you'll agree that the govt. has no right to take money from me to cure your addiction or support your family. do we apply this standard to obesity as well? you do realize where the vast majority of your tax/insurance etc money really goes in health costs?? enforced PT programs? mandatory dietary restrictions designed to increase your health and so reduce your personal cost on 'the system'? heart disease kills far more than drugs..... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

no, it never seems to suprise anyone that knows me... it is very very cool on the occasions i've been able to remark to a loud mouth asshole going on about how he used to jump, that both the women he was trying to hit on have several hunderd jumps more than me.... that moment, is just priceless..

my guess would be apocalyptica 4 Norwegian cellists who seem hell bent on proving "heavier than thou" to nearly everyone in the metal world.. they did several Metallica tunes, early and late..and 'note for note' doesn’t quiet qualify they way they recreate every tiny guitar squeal and vocal melody with their cello's in concert these guys stand upright on their instruments at times... they've also done Sepultura and Pantera covers, but it's their own compositions that really amaze... Former ‘metal god’ walking out of their concert with me.. "did you hear that sound?" "what sound? the band yea damn dude..." "no, the sound in that silent moment right as they stopped." "eh??" "it bass cases clicking shut all over the world.....they know now they will never be that heavy....." ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

.at the point your actions begin to significantly affect the lives of others, then society needs to step in. Before then, whatever your weaknesses, no matter what their effects on your life and its possible span, are your own. hold people responsible for their actions, from day one, square one, and you will not have to differentiate between the influences that might have prompted them. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

i loved 'saved' junkies..they are worse than born again Christians when it comes to distorting facts and imposing their belief system and morality on others... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

i wouldn’t even say the black album had much to recommend it.. that subtle sound you here in the silence between the mediocre drivel they've been offering as 'Metal' for the last few albums? that is Cliff Burton spinning in his grave... call it 'Poppica" There is no metal in it... or as someone (here iirc) said.. "Aluminum, it may be metal, but is sure isn’t heavy...." ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

"Your majesty looks like the piss boy" ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

hmmm i know JT jumped a tube fairly recently, but havent seen him around here much of late... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

PM sent. This thread is not my own and my position has been explained in my previous thread. I have answered your particular question in a pm to you, but it is not appropriate here because it has been well discussed, the thread was locked and I don't want to get this one locked. its the same issue, but there should be no reason why we should be unable to discuss it without getting this thread locked.... we've managed to agree that discrimination happens daily in many aspects of life, that really 'discrimination' is the perception of difference, and recognizing the things that you have in common with a group (and so excluding those without that denominator) is a means of bonding. However, when it becomes more than simple perception, when there is a quantifiable benefit to those being included vs those being excluded? at what point is it offensive to nearly everyone? and does the standard differ depending on what/who is being discriminated against? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

so 'bonding' is ok, but 'services offered' is bad. What about when the two are tied together? how many would have issues with a DZ giving left-handed jumpers $14 jumps while righthanders were $18? 14 and 20? 10 and 20? At what point financially, does discrimination become a issue for you? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

ok maybe i'm the only one who nearly fell out of their chair when i read this post the first time. Maybe we need a sign above the door " Speaker's Corner: Check your offense bone, but retain your sense of humor" How many distinctions ephemeral to the act of skydiving do we really need? ***I'd just like to state, that there is nothing cooler than an all left-handed skydive. (well, and a very cool right handed camera flyer ) There is something about jumping with other left handed people that is calming, relaxing, fun, low-stress, and just all out cool as hell. Zen what makes one form of discrimination acceptable and another offensive? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

where do i sign? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

I have no issues with truth, it just is not the one you Christians like to beat everyone else over the head with. You should do some research into your source material. It was pretty much intended to tell the faithful everything they needed to know about how to live. Science has replaced Religion; Religion once purported to know all things. But it is rather obvious to any but the most stubborn there is a great deal it never knew and even more it has been completely wrong about. You create the context (belief) that gives your stories any validity at all. When placed in the real world context of actual verifiable facts and natural laws, your Bible is incorrect. When a “God” is incapable of behaving in a more enlightened manner than his flawed creations.... i judge him (the character as portrayed in your literature) to be an equally flawed creation, from the mind of Man. Remember, I’m not judging God I’m judging a character created by your religion, not the same thing at all…. I find it amazing how your definition of justice is based on the beliefs of the 'victims'. I guess torture is ok if they are wicked people... i suppose all the children who could not swim were equally wicked?? this is justice? your God is petty, jealous and bloody minded (at least until the NT revisions of his character) all human failings, all failings for any supposedly intelligent being, as determined by anyone with any sense of morality, but then your morals dont apply to your God do they? btw, the example of Moses applied to Moses.. If a homeless person in the street next to your house were having discourse with a bush, is he sane or no? check the source of Samson's mandate for genocide.I’d imagine killing every member of a nation, man, woman, and child exceeds the definition of ‘revenge killing’ and gets into the psychotic/pathological behavior.. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

and what basis does your church use to decide where God's word "is and is not"? why do they have better understanding than the Catholics? possible that all Christian's are missing some of God's word as well? Is it possible all Christian's are reading books that are not God's word? why? why not? who is the church to tell you where God's word is to be found, or not found? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

no. I'm not attempting to 'discredit' anything. I am pointing out flaws of character and plot in what you hold as “the one true word”. ‘Credit’ you give personally, its a lot like faith, no amount of evidence will shake that which you really believe, or give credit (or take it away) from the source of that belief. Your biblical text is inaccurate. It contains fundamental flaws about the nature of the earth, its physical laws and the universe beyond, stemming primarily from the primitive culture that created it and its limited knowledge base. Man lacks understanding, as he explores the world around he creates stories to explain what he does not understand. As we have advanced we cease to create such fictions, or rather recognize them for the stories they are and accept their wisdom from the human source without claiming ‘higher authority’) Science has replaced Religion as the means of examining the real world, as it does not support an agenda apart from the acquisition of knowledge, and bases its conclusions on its repeatable, demonstrable results, and not on myths and tales of yore, or what fits best for the church/political leaders in charge. If you believe God directly communicated to your writers the words and concepts they used, then your God also has a flawed understanding of the universe, which sort of puts a crimp in the old "omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent' thing, and makes your book somewhat less than the “sole source of Truth”. This does not imply there is no wisdom to be found there, but there is a great deal of fallacy as well…. "Sane" is social standard. What is considered "sane" may or may not agree with the definition applied by a previous age or culture. As such it can only be applied from the current perspective. Prophets were rather common occurrences then, what do you think ‘we’ would say about someone who claimed the same level of direct communication with God now, as Moses is written to have had then? [I]Wonder why your God ‘shut up’ anyway? Oh yeah..the NT writers didn’t want anyone jumping in on their new parade so…they wrote them out, by claiming sole providence[/I] Do you think a modern psychological evaluation would find him sane? Perhaps you should (try to take your belief out of it, an important part of critical reading/thinking skills is objectivity. Scientific methods remember?) conduct a survey of your own and see how you would classify a human that exhibited all the changing attitudes and actions of your God?? It’s a good excuse to read the Bible again anyway, and then you can claim to have really examined the evidence for this particular discussion. Its very easy (even from a superficial reading if you dont have the time for deep study) to find many instances of behavior from characters (including the multiple characters of God who is in no way a consistent character by any literary definition, and yet is accepted as one by your religion) in your bible, that would be classified as psychotic (talks to and receives answers from burning trees?, Kills every man woman and child occupying a foreign land with the jaw bone of an ass? Becomes angry to the point of "world wide destruction" ie Floods because others do not follow your wishes? Destruction and dispersion of mankind because they built a tower?) Do you think the actions of your God, when placed on 'trial' would show him to be any saner than Moses? I use these examples because most everyone, even those who have not done an in-depth study will be familiar with these tales.. I read the bible at my grandmothers request, because she gave me one (she's very much a believer of your faith) when she noticed i was reading all the time, but I didn’t really start reading critically until much later. I had read the bible (and lots of other texts, religious and otherwise as i have been a voracious reader since i learned how) cover to cover before age 12. I had/have always questioned a number of the assumptions and teachings as given by sunday school teachers (and later ministers and pastors, when my questions went beyond what sunday school teachers had any answers for at all) as I felt fundamental flaws with the dogma they were teaching from day 1. I have never been separated from God and never will be. Nor am I responsible in any way for the hypothetical "sins" of fictional ancestors, and Christian literary assertions aside you cannot prove otherwise. I cannot "take on faith" that which contradicts things i have known since i first drew breathe. Of course that level of discussion is unwelcome in sunday school where Christians are busily indoctrinating their young with 'correct thought' i learned critical thinking and analysis skills not from 'dabbling' (although perhaps the few courses strickly in behavioral science might qualify as 'dabbling') but from over 100 semester hours of undergraduate and nearly 60 hours of post graduate work in Literature, with a focus in theory and criticism. (I also have enough hours to nearly qualify for Philosophy & History majors ( i do have minors in both attached to my degrees). I dont expect you to recognize the wide variety of fields you must have a passable understanding of to utilize their methods as criticism. The last actual paper i did on a Biblical subject was Daniel, as it fit in well with some other themes of history and 'prophecy i was studying at the time. But psychological analysis of literature is a common critical technique and i have used it throughout my studies, both formal and independent, religious and secular. Some people go to College to get degrees/jobs. I go to learn as much as I can, and so the educational process only starts when they hand you the lambskin. I’ve probably read more on the subject (comparative religions and literary criticisms of their texts) outside of formal courses than most have while attending. If you are really interested you can start by familiarizing yourself with the modern definitions and behavioral patterns of psychotic, neurotic and pathological. Then keep them in mind as your (re)reading your books... you dont have to go to the process of building profiles for each, just look to see where some of your characters actions fit the bill. It's amazing the differences in reading you can find when you force yourself to think from another perspective. Keep in mind these behavioral patterns still apply, even if the characters believe themselves to be acting on direct information from God. Of course if you read the text from the viewpoint of a believer then all their actions are somehow justifiable. “it is God’s will” the excuse used by Christian persecutors everywhere…. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

i got distracted by the river...and beer and boobies...It wasnt skydiving, but i dont feel guilty at all... Hopefully I'll be able to get a few in this week before i have to hit the highway... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

We did 2 Otter loads into Kapowsin Air Sports proper yesterday afternoon...a beautiful tracking dive, we pulled high to watch the tunderstorm roll passed on the sound and enjoy the spectacular veiw of Rainer... why would anyone ever dream of shutting this place down? the Otter is in Toledo this weekend, come on out and play..i'm leaving in an hour or so myself...the desire to jump is tough to compete with.... ps. hows the water Cash? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

yes. Many times for a variety of reasons, beginning with my grandmother asked me to when i started reading. I own several, as well as a number of other religious texts, both Christian and not. I am making no such assumption. I am pointing out that 'criticism' (literary, an analysis tool) is a different thing than a 'critic'. If the God of my Bible is correct, then all others cannot be and, therefore, he cannot be accurately represented in their religious texts. very true, and exactly why the writers of your literature are incorrect (in many places) when they claim to be to sole authority and voice of Truth. We can clearly show that the writers of your literature suffered a number of misconceptions about the basic nature of the universe, this however did not prohibit them from documenting a great deal of wisdom about the nature of divinity and one cultures experience of it. It means there is more to the universe than they understood. God doesn’t make mistakes… Man does. Human emotions when taken to the extremes exhibited by your OT God and humans such as Son of Sam (killing everyone that offends you) are failings. We lock people away for those things. Genocide is a failing, even if you think God told you to do it. enjoy! ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

I think it would be easier just to be clear and attack the idea and not the person. That's just me. it is easiest if everyone reads completely and recgonizes subordinate clauses and how they apply to the object under discusion, before they scream about personal attacks. "if" & "then" ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

so, you've gone thru the books of the old and new testament applying psychological analytical methods to the characters, events and plots (and writers as they are often writing about themselves and events they claim to have participated in) and compared them to established patterns of behavior, phrases of speech and action to illustrate where (as present in the text as given) they exhibit behavior and attitudes that would be classified as neurotic, psychotic perhaps even pathological by modern mental behavioral science? have you really ever read the bible critically? most people have not, most people misunderstand criticism as an analytical tool to begin with, it has nothing to do with Siskel and Ebert if you havent, you havent looked at the 'evidence' at all. I will never say the voice of God is not present in your texts (as it is in many others as well) but there is a good bit of chatter from Man to leave off with.. would you like a list of the human emotional and failings exhibited by your "God" as written in your literature? (more in the OT than the NT is better edited more unified creation) we could start with Anger and Jealousy... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

but some how you cant stop clicking...sort of like train wrecks, cant look away... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

the difference between you and i (and most believers in any religion) is that I've looked at the evidence before i made my decision. believers make their decisions and then look for evidence. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.