Robert99

I don't see any jump numbers or time in our sport associated with your user name. I'm leaning toward writing that you don't know what you are talking about. But...I'm willing to read your explanation for such a totally nonsensical statement. Could you provide a source or some sort of explanation for the above statement? I'm beginning to wonder if you have a clue what activity DropZone.com is all about. Guru312, You are on. First, we need to discuss the weather and other conditions under which Cooper jumped, fell, or was thrown from the airliner. It was a dark and stormy night. The airliner was flying at 10,000 feet above sea level. There was an overcast, which is defined as 90 per cent sky cover, at 5,000 feet above sea level. In addition, there was a broken cloud layer, which is defined as 60 to 90 percent sky cover, at 3500 feet above sea level. In addition, there were scattered clouds below 3500 feet. Light rain showers were also in the Portland area at that time. From 10,000 feet, Cooper could not see the ground or any horizontal reference points and he would not have any directional reference points unless he could spot the North Star, or some such thing, as he was tumbling. The human brain must process the clues concerning the above reference points in order to provide inputs to Cooper's hands, feet, and anything else he had to use in stabilizing himself. No clues to the brain means no meaningful inputs to the hands and feet. Therefore, there was no way on God's Green Earth that Cooper, even if he was an experienced jumper, could have stabilized himself until he got below the 3500 foot cloud layer and probably not even then. If Cooper jumped in the general area originally claimed, he would not have had very much, if any, ground clearance or ground references after getting below 3500 feet. I look forward to your comments on how the above is "totally nonsensical". And don't give me any stories like "a skydiver doesn't even need a parachute after six beers". Please stick to facts. You state, "I'm beginning to wonder if you have a clue what activity DropZone.com is all about". I had assumed that DZ.com was about skydiving and this thread was about the Cooper hijacking. Do you agree?

Jerry~ The thing is...even IF Cooper had encountered a spin, pulling the ripcord stops it. It's the basic rule beginner skydivers are taught as they progress into longer & longer freefalls. If you can NOT stop the spin in free-fall on your own ~PULL! 'Odds are'... if Cooper was freefalling and spinning, if/when he pulled the canopy would open clean. Also, you can attach quite a bit of stuff in some crazy ways and still fall reasonably stable~ (I'm the incredibly handsome 'larger' specimen on the far right) http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=8902; http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=8903; That's a lotta weight & drag...80 some pounds total. I've done it a BUNCH...and I'm alive...(i think) http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=8904; So don't put too much into 'he probably didn't survive' the exit, if he got out he could easily get open...if he got open, he probably survived the landing. In what kind of 'condition' is debatable, but I've jumped the same kind of canopy he did @ almost 100lbs heavier and walked away every time. FWIW... FWIW, a year or two back one of the cable TV channels had a multi-hour program on students going through the military's HALO parachute program at Yuma, AZ (if I remember correctly). All the students were experienced paratroopers. After a number of HALO jumps, the students put on belly cargo packs and then did another HALO jump on a beautiful, not a cloud in the sky, day. Most of the students wobbled about a bit at first but within a few seconds were reasonably under control. Unfortunately, one student had some serious problems. A camerman and an instructor were along side the student so the incident was well documented. In trying to help the student, the instructor nearly got kicked in the head several times and finally had to give up and move away from the student. The student never did get things under control but did eventually open his chute and landed okay. The student was booted out of the course after that jump. But there is no way Cooper could have stabilized in a free fall after leaving the aircraft. He had considerably less than a minute to pull the ripcord or crater. If he had opened the chute, what are the chances of him landing in a tree? If he had landed in a tree the chances are pretty good that he wouldn't want to stay around to get the canopy out of the tree. He simply didn't have the time to spare. If he didn't open the chute, his impact area on the ground would be rather small. Are vultures flying around the Portland/Vancouver area in rainy and cold weather? I doubt it. And the vultures are only reliable indicators if the searchers are in the correct general area to begin with.

I have just taken a look at a Canadian map and Thompson is listed as being 469 miles by road north of Winnipeg, Manitoba. At least two-thirds of that road runs through very sparesly settled areas. If MacDonald flew direct, he would be over Lake Winnipeg for at least an hour with the whole trip taking at least three hours, not even considering the winds, clouds, etc. To make a long story short, it is easy to understand why he has been missing for 40 years.

Marla, Welcome to DZ. First, ignore Bob Knoss since he only posts here when he manages to loosen his straight jacket enough to use a computer. Several other posters, including Blevins, are not far behind Knoss. Second, you will be the "fresh meat on the table" until your story starts checking out. Third, I am a committed pessimist. But I do find your story interesting and would like to ask a few questions. 1. You have stated that you want Clint Eastwood to play your love interest in the movie version of your book. Who do you want to play you in that movie? 2. You have stated that the money was lost during the jump. You have also stated that either LD or Dewey, or someone, claimed the very next day that your family was now rich. Is my reasoning faulty or is there a contradiction here? Enjoy your time on DZ.

Rataczak may have meant that the wing flaps had to be at 15 degrees for the wing tip slats to operate. The 727 had a relatively advanced wing design for its time that included the wing tip slats, leading edge Kreuger flaps, and (I think) tripple slotted trailing edge flaps. Based on my personal observations riding on 727s, during the climb out after takeoff, the Kreuger flaps would be retracted but the slats would be left out for quite a while. The trailing edge flaps would be retracted to some extent but I don't think they were fully retracted until the slats were also retracted.

I had a new Triumph Spitfire for several months in the early 1970s. About once a month a visit to the dealer was necessary to tighten all the nuts and bolts. The suspension, if it had one, provided the roughest ride I have ever seen. In just cruising down the freeway at 55 MPH, I doubt if all four wheels were ever on the pavement at the same time. When it rained, I needed to wear a raincoat, and keep an umbrella handy, just to keep reasonably dry while driving. So I faced the problem head on, disposed of that car, and went back to Mustangs (since I am a charter member of the Mustang generation).

How true!

If a person can fool other people into believing their story, then there's a story. This is what fuels UFO books. If not, then there's a story about the story and the motivations of the person who concocted it. This is what fuels stories like Big Fish. I've always thought the biggest potential story in all of this DB Cooper non-sense was not the DB Cooper story itself, but the people that crawl out of the woodwork claiming some connection. Some are comical, some are tragic, most are just outright annoying, but there's a story in there somewhere. Not that I'm going to write it. There's no way I'd even give a whack at it without being bribed heavily. Two books will be necessary to fully cover the Cooper matter. The first book will cover the investigation and why it wasn't solved in 1971 or 1972. This book will sell 20 copies at most. The sequel will be as Quade describes above. It will be the most colorful book, filled with photographs of photogenic women, and make a ton of money.

Jo, Orange1 and ClassClown are correct. For your information, it was obvious that Cooper knew that the 727 could be jumped. The 727 was ALWAYS intended to be a passenger aircraft although quite a few were converted to cargo aircraft (with a large side door) and used by such companies as FEDEX. The decision to use some of the aircraft for cargo was an economics decision and did not have anything to do with the military. When the 727 was designed, there were already better military cargo aircraft, such as the C-130 and C-141, in service or on the way. And as everyone has told you for years on end, there is no possibility whatsoever that Duane Weber was Cooper.

The problem is what happens AFTER you go off the stairs. If you open the parachute immediately as 377 recommends, and it stays in one piece, then your problems will be minimized. If you do a free fall with a delayed opening, then you are going to tumble and perhaps violently. There is no way you can avoid that since you are above an overcast initially and do not have any visual references to help you stabilize. The type of tumbling motion depends on how and where Cooper attached the money bag to himself.

What is the rest of the thread doing?

You are hinting here that this is the only explanation as to how the money ended up at Tena Bar. Did it fall from the sky like the placard? If so, Occam might also say it's unlikely three packets (approx. $5,800) of the money would land in the same spot, with nothing else discovered. Did the money go into the Columbia somewhat nearby and wash up at Tena Bar? Again...same problem. Did someone plant it there? Maybe. But the evidence shows it was unlikely to have been done at the time of the hijacking, and would have to have been planted later. Did Cooper no-pull into the Tena Bar area? Maybe. But the problem there is the lack of any other evidence found at the site. No chutes, no other money, no briefcase, no body. I think simply moving the flight path to justify the location of the money is too much of a stretch. Blevins, Occam's Razor is defined in my desk dictionary as "the scientific principle that in explaining a thing no more assumptions should be made than are necessary." That is, other things being equal, the simplest explanation for the "thing" should be selected. The money was found at Tena Bar - period. The money was last seen on an airliner. Falling from the airliner to Tena Bar is the simplest explanation possible. I am not saying that the money landed at the spot Brian Ingram found it or that it buried itself under the sand. If you would familarize yourself with the geography of Tena Bar, you would discover that there are some very formidable constraints on what could happen to the money after it landed there. These constraints have been pointed out several times before. You have asked a number of questions and attempted to apply Occam's Razor to them without formulating them in a manner where Occam's Razor can be used. For instance, you write "Occam's Razor might also say it's unlikely three packets (approx. $5,800) of the money would land in the same spot, with nothing else discovered." How can you apply Occam's Razor to this? Frankly, I think that Occam's would say IT IS likely that three packets of money would end up at the same spot since all the packets were in a single bag when last seen in the airplane. The "with nothing else discovered" is not relevant to the problem. There is only one explanation as to how the money got to Tena Bar. Whatever it is, it remains to be proven. Also, there is only one flight path for the airliner in the Portland area. And whatever it is, it also remains to be proven.

The position that Tom Kaye has given for the placard's landing place is consistent with the airliner being on or just slightly east of the V-23 centerline (on the left side while inbound to the BTG VORTAC) when passing several miles south of Toutle. It was approximately 35 nautical miles from the BTG VORTAC at that point. And the location of the placard is extremely important since the airliner would have to pass up wind (which was from the southwest) of that point. And if the airliner stayed close to the centerline of V-23, it would pass reasonably close to the original estimate of Cooper's jump point, which was just north of Highland, according to the FBI maps. NEVERTHELESS, I still consider ANY flight path from the placard location to the 23 DME point south of Portland to be unproven at this point. But I think a flight path east of Portland can be ruled out on time and distance considerations. I also consider a flight path west of Portland to be the only "logical" path. There are just to many problems explaining how the money got to Tena bar to support a flight path on or east of the V-23 centerline. Also, the flight crew had discussed avoiding flying over populated areas before they took off from Seattle. If you apply Occam's Razor to this matter, it would come out in favor of the west side flight path which would pass over or very close to Tena bar. Occam would probably slash a wrist before selecting a more easterly flight path. But there are other problems that need to be resolved and they include converting the flight path on the 1971 maps to present day maps. That involves changes between the NAD27 grid system and the WGS84 grid system. Also, the magnetic variation in the Portland/Seattle area has changed significantly since 1971. The orientation of the SEA and PDX/BTG VORTACS have been changed and the radials defining V-23 have been changed in some instances. This means that the geographical track of V-23 has changed between 1971 and today. In some cases by several nautical miles. I hope to have more on this in a few days.

Then why is Rataczak also quoted as saying: "... and we could see the suburbs of Vancouver coming up". My quote is from an FBI agent of record who read the 302's. I also have other sources who agree. Where is your quote(s) from? All these different quotes from different sources is getting downright perplexing. How can there be so many (even contradictory) versions? If you have an explanation I sure would like to hear it! Is this like Popeye's complaint (1950s)? Popeye: " I can read writin when it's writ, but I can't read writin when it's wrot". Do we need Olive Oil to lead us out of the darkness? Who is our Olive Oil? The quote about being able to see or not see the lights of Portland comes from page 95, George Nuttall's book, where he has a copy of a letter from Harry Grady, his research partner. Grady cites conversations he had with Jerry Thomas and Ralph Himmelsbach in which, apparently Ralph H., stated that "There was a cloud cover below them [the airliner] when they passed over Vancouver [this would include Portland] that was so thick they couldn't see landmarks or even the glow of city lights". The above matter was discussed to death a few months ago in connection with Sailshaw's claim that Cooper parachuted into a field adjacent to the Portland Airport, then walked to the airport parking lot, retrieved his car, and drove off into the sunset, figuratively speaking. I have never seen a claim that the flight crew could "see the surburbs of Vancouver". But I have seen a claim, in numerous sources, that the co-pilot had said that the aircraft must have been "in the Portland/Vancouver surburbs" when Cooper jumped. I am not familiar with the writings of Popeye and Olive Oil. Sorry.

The Sarah Palin part I can believe.

Dan, What are you talking about? Can you provide a coherent explanation of the above?

Dan, There is a small but important problem with your DZ idea. It seems that the airliner was at 10,000 feet, there was an overcast at 5,000 feet, there was a broken cloud layer at 3,500 feet, and there were scattered clouds below that. The co-pilot of the airliner has been quoted by several sources as saying that they could not even see the lights of Portland when they passed through the area. So unless Cooper had X-ray vision, he couldn't "spot" anything that night.

The flight was basically on V-23 from Seattle to just a few miles north of the Red Bluff, CA VORTAC. The flight path the airliner followed in the Portland area is a matter of continuing disagreement. Hopefully, I will have more on this specific point in a few days. Just before reaching the Red Bluff VORTAC, the Okland Center controller turned the aircraft direct to Reno. To clear the mountains between Red Bluff and Reno, the aircraft had climbed to 11,000 feet. Once the aircraft had cleared the mountains it started descending at a requested rate of descent of only 300 to 500 feet per minute. Prior to being handed off to Oakland center, someone (presumably from NWA or Seattle ATC) had informed Oakland that the aircraft was having trouble turning. So the aircraft had trouble climbing out of Seattle, it had trouble turning, and it had trouble descending. The descent into Reno was slow, involved a lot of turning, and included having to break off the first attempt at landing due to being to high. The Oakland radio transcripts, including the phone chatter between controllers, is available on Sluggo's web page. If you read the Oakland transcripts, then also read the Seattle transcripts from take off to the hand off to Oakland center. You will probably notice how short and uninformative the Seattle transcripts are compared to the Oakland transcripts.

Well, there are only two types of Cooper books, basically. Those that generally cover the case, and those that have a specific suspect. Geoff Gray's was the only one that was a little different. He covers the case, but also makes a personal journey out of it. what personal journey? "Peeless in Portland - How to Become a Celebrity on Per Diums and Other People's Work!" ? Maybe Farflung could cash in as well. A suggested book/film for him would be "Dee Bee Does Seattle and Portland". This would be a juiced up version of the classic "Debbie Does Dallas".

Of course, that's exactly the same type of thing a psychopathic liar of a used car salesman would say as well. Congratulations are due to Quade for locking a new Cooper thread seven minutes after it turned up on DZ yesterday. Now if he could only do that to the meaningless books that keep turning up.

How true and fitting!

Do you mean seven more? Cooper books are multiplying faster than rabbits!

Oh my gawd! Four more?

If they are screening his calls, he had better have his next job lined up and starting about next Monday.

Use your imagination. The chosen wardrobe would probably be appropriate for whatever was being offered for sale.