Robert99

Blevins, Forget I-5 and start thinking about V-23 and how the airliner is going to get around Portland. The flight crew had already suggested that they climb above the overcast and fly out over the Pacific until the matter was settled. So do you really think they are going to fly an airplane with a possible bomb aboard over Portland? The Chief FAA shrink had already passed the word to the crew that Cooper would probably blow up the airplane when he jumped. Tom Kaye essentially ruled out the possibility of the money arriving from the river when his experiments showed that money sinks real fast. He did offer the possibility that the money "may have arrived there by non-natural means". The term "may" does not mean experimental certainty. As to how the money could have stayed together has been discussed and answered any number of times on this thread. For that matter, ever thing you mention above is just a rehash of matters that have been talked to death on this thread over the past several years. Robert99

Congratulations to you fellows on your literature research and findings! Now do you understand how space programs apply to the search for Cooper? No. Actually, I don't. I favor hard evidence and the like. You'll never be able to prove anything about Cooper by speculating or theorizing on wind currents, or fancy math formulas as applied to the placard. Because you will never to be able to prove those formulas. It's ridiculous. Radar will tell you a lot more about the position of 305 at any given time during the flight than any descending placard. A gust here, another there on the way down from thousands of feet. You can't prove a thing about it that has any relation to the case. Say this, say that. But you will never know for sure, no matter how you try to squeeze numbers. And then you will see people debate on these numbers or those numbers...in some pathetic attempt to prove an LZ, or a reason why the money ended up at Tina Bar. Blevins, Check your local phone book for Community Colleges in your area. See if they offer summer courses in any elementary mathematics or physical science area. If they do, take the courses. Then take additional courses this fall, winter, next summer, etc.. Maybe in a couple of years you will have some understanding of what you have written above. Robert99

Don't laugh. Snowmman found official docs about use of the SR 71 to look for Cooper. Really. 377 That is believable but the U-2 would have been a better choice. Rober99

Robert 99 and YOU are WHO. You would dispute the word of Homid! The money found at Tena's bar had NOTHING to do with the flight path! PERHAPS Homid knows things YOU know nothing of! You Think? You pop off at me about things and make ridiculous statements - and I often wonder how much you had to drink before you made such postings. Jo, First I don't drink at all, nor do I smoke or snort. I'll leave those to you. Second, you obviously don't understand what I was saying in that quote above. I am going to write the following in big letters so perhaps you can read them better and understand what I was saying: I WAS SAYING, IN YOUR QUOTE ABOVE, THAT THE PLACARD AND MONEY FOUND AT TINA BAR WERE DEFINITELY SIGNIFICANT IN DETERMINING THE FLIGHT PATH OF THE HIJACKED AIRLINER. In case you don't remember, Hominid was saying that they were not significant. I fully understand that you are claiming the money was planted at Tina Bar by Duane. I assume that you are still claiming that the flight path was EAST of Portland and that the placard blew UPWIND to the location where it was found. Have you found a believer for your scenario yet? Robert99

Congratulations to you fellows on your literature research and findings! Now do you understand how space programs apply to the search for Cooper?

In desert areas, sky trash is quite common. Dust devils can be extremely strong and suck debris into the air with the lighter debris, such as newspapers, continuing on upwards to considerable heights. I once spent several minutes at over 7000 feet above ground level trying to snag a four page piece of a newspaper on my sailplane's wing. However, it always managed to get out of my way and I wasn't able to catch it. I did get close enough to conclude that it was from that morning's newspaper, which I had already read. Robert99

Killer or burglar? Oh, both I suppose. Maybe random burglary, maybe planned. You are probably right about the back and forth. I'm not going along with Meyer Louie's Family Planning version of a murder for financial gain until I see an arrest. One reason is because of the mailing of the credit cards and ID back to Cossey's house. Cops sure are being tight with the details on this one. REALLY tight. No one knows why, either. It is not very likely that it was the burglar who mailed the ID and credit cards back. It was probably just someone who found them in the brush somewhere and thought they had been lost.

I don't remember seeing it there either. check your message box Okay, I was thinking of Sluggo's Yahoo blog.

I don't remember seeing it there either.

To the best of my knowledge, I have not seen previously the Hominid post that Shutter quotes. I would like to comment on the extracts above from that post. Again to the best of my knowledge, Hominid has never revealed any training or experience that he may have in the field of aerodynamics. It would be interesting, at least for me, to know the basis for some of his statements above. Apparently Hominid is criticizing a free-fall analysis of the placard that I did for Tom Kaye and which is presented on Tom Kaye's web page. But Hominid's claim that the placard does not tell us anything about the airliner's flight path is nonsense. And the same goes for his remarks about the money found at Tina Bar. Bent or not, the placard will have a drag coefficient approximating 1.0. If you don't believe the report I cited (primarily because it was available free online and thus available to any reader of this thread) in the calculations that appear on Tom Kaye's site, then consult Dr. Sighard F. Hoerner's books on Fluid-Dynamic Drag and Fluid-Dynamic Lift, or any standard aerodynamics textbook. Hominid's claim that the placard "certainly would have picked up a heavy load of ice after falling the first 2000 feet" has no basis in fact. First, there is no evidence that it was even raining at the time and location the placard separated from the airliner. And there is certainly no evidence of a heavy rainfall, meaning "big" raindrops. Second, the possibility of rain drops (assuming they were even present during the free-fall) affecting the descent of the placard was considered in the analysis at Tom Kaye's suggestion. For those interested, Google "raindrop falling speeds", or something along that line, and you will find some very interesting information. Basically, misty type raindrops fall at a very low speed and "big" raindrops such as from a heavy rain fall much faster. The calculated falling speed of the placard was in the middle of the speed range for raindrops. Since there was no evidence of a heavy rain or "big" raindrops in the area where the placard parted ways with the aircraft, it is entirely possible that any raindrops (assuming they were there in the first place) could have slowed down the descent of the placard. That would have made the free-fall calculations even more conservative than those presented on Tom Kaye's web page. Meaning that the placard could have parted from the aircraft further upwind than shown in the analysis. I don't consider the claims about icing to be of any significance. Hominid's comments dismissing the significance of the money found at Tina Bar is difficult to comprehend. It would be utterly foolish to ignore one of only two pieces of evidence that show the flight path of the airliner after it left Seattle. As to how the money got to Tina Bar, I would suggest considering gravity, wind, and water, in that order. Robert99

I know I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and obviously haven't put as much thought into this as you have... But am I misunderstanding something, or did in fact the placard land in a spot that would be considered 'upwind' of even the most liberal estimation of the currently accepted flight path? I don't know much about the placard to give any response too, perhaps Robert99 or Georger...... Hominid did an analysis of the placard drop, using govt placard drop test data (yes such tests were conducted). The placard for all practical purposes is right under the FP and obeyed the drift parameters assumed in the NWA DZ La Center probability map - the white chart. One central issue is: did those same winds (drift) apply if Cooper bailed further south? Ckret and the FBI seem to assume yes. Then if the FP itself needs adjustment south of the placard drop point, how would that affect winds (drift)? The NWA la Center chart basically assumes the same wind patterns in all drop sectors, at least I think that is the case? Maybe R99 and Hominid have a different opinion ... ?? What was the opening of the stairs when the placard left? Also: It is my expectation the FBI etal are not going to give up their current FP easily, unless and until 'convincing' contra-data is presented with documentation. This is the conclusion of those who have worked with the FBI etal on this issue. I think we all already assumed that. Let me review some notes tonight and maybe make a further comment. I think about ever bit of wind and weather data plus forecasts for the time of the hijacking are already on this thread courtesy, apparently, of Ckret. Also, note that the ground winds for the various locations along the flight route are essentially the same. Same for the winds aloft forecasts. Basically, weather was not a problem for the hijacked airliner. Robert99

I know I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and obviously haven't put as much thought into this as you have... But am I misunderstanding something, or did in fact the placard land in a spot that would be considered 'upwind' of even the most liberal estimation of the currently accepted flight path? I don't know much about the placard to give any response too, perhaps Robert99 or Georger...... That placard is going to be blown downwind. And from the actual surface observations, plus the winds aloft forecasts for the entire area, very near the time of the airliner passing through the Portland area the winds were from a southerly to southwesterly direction from the surface to 10,000 feet. In addition, the placard was found at an elevation of about 1500 feet which means it had a free fall of only about 8500 feet. Robert99

Ok then I'll start over when I get home tonight...I must have either the FP or the placard landing location plotted wrong. Just for the sake of my own understanding, I found a 20 year old airline issued chart of the area... that's thumbnailed to the wall of the mancave at home. Thought my coordinates were reasonably accurate...right under or down-wind is understandable & expected, I show several miles up-wind. Guess I didn't 'measure twice - cut once', I try again. You are home free on this one. Don't forget that the conversion from NAD29, I think it was, to WGS84 was about the mid-1980s. The actual conversions in the Portland area was less than 200 feet total for several checks that I made. In addition, check Farflung's maps for an explanation of about a 2+ nautical mile east to west movement of some of the geographical features between the Mayfield/Malay Intersection and the Portland/Battleground VORTAC on V-23. Robert99

Quote Many things, not just Cooper money, get to Tina Bar and leave Tina Bar, naturally. Everything from logs and lumber to things described in the Palmer Report. Maybe Blevins could give us a list of the things discussed in the Palmer report, since he claims to have a copy? It is somewhat interesting to me that in this decades old soliloquy about the Tina Bar money, there has been no discussion about how known things naturally get to Tina Bar; except for a short discussion by 377 and Snowman early in this thread, and Robert99 trying to incorporate flow and movement into his thinking, Palmer etal trying to account for it in his report, and Tom Kaye sequestering the Cooper money from everything else that manages to find its way to Tina Bar by natural means, to be found there by anyone! Things arrive at Tina Bar and some things are retained for a time and then move on; some things leaving artifacts behind like nails etc. That is the natural story for any shoreline. For everything that is but the DB Cooper money ... and the Russian submarine which picked up Duane at Tina Bar and moved out to deliver Duane back to Salt Lake City! We have physics being suspended in the cabins of airliners, Russian suibmarines that come and go in the Columbia, and DB Cooper money which is immune to the natural forces of nature in a water-borne environment! Logs, lumber, bloated bodies, etc. float. Tom Kaye's experiments show that money sinks. Eureka! The money didn't float down the river but was pushed to its discovery site by water running INTO the river. The "torqued" bills, previously commented on in this thread, support that position. If Georger's witness to the money find is correct in stating that the money was found "flat side down", then the bills would be stationary on the bank in essentially a horizontal position lengthwise when they were "torqued". Robert99

When a competent & experienced sport skydiver looks out & down prior to exit, in our 'minds-eye' we visualize possible landing areas in regard to the 'exact' exit point. You take kind of a 3D picture and superimpose what amounts roughly to an upside down funnel into that, with the aircraft door at the small end of the funnel. The 'size & shape' of the funnel are dictated by a number of variables...exit altitude, speed, freefall drift, opening altitude, wind speed & direction as well as canopy performance parameters. 'Spotting' for an exit point is basically making sure your intended landing site is at the center of this 'cone' of possible places you can go, once you've left the door. The reason I bring this up is... When mrshutter first started explaining his project 305, I thought to myself what a fantastic way of narrowing down a possible LZ with math & science in a way not considered prior. One could conceivably factor in ALL the variables and produce a map of sorts, showing 'only' the area of probability... After sifting through the last several pages it's becoming apparent to me anyway, the cone of possible LZ's is freakin' MASSIVE. Even with an exact track path & identifiable exit point, the winds & unknown opening altitude alone highlight an LZ 'cone' that would be extremely difficult to foot search. Throw in the possible variance on the track along with the ground covered from the time Cooper was known to be on the plane and known to be off...holy COW that's a big area! So...I started thinking project 305 may not be able to give a practical area of search considering the variables 'at this time', but is a very valuable tool to exclude - to a VERY certain degree - areas that absolutely could NOT be within that 'cone' I described. Am I wrong...doesn't the location of the placard fall WELL outside of the cone of possibility, from the information currently available? If so, that's troubling...because if it wasn't moved from where it landed that night, somebody's numbers are way off. The time and exact location that the placard separated from the airliner is not known. However, as shown on Tom Kaye's web page, the airliner was probably on the western edge of V-23 when the placard came off. I consider those numbers to be conservative, meaning that the airliner may have been further upwind, or to the southwest, than indicated by the calculations. In reality, the location where the placard separated from the aircraft is not material to the jump point but only to the track of the aircraft. And as has been pointed out on this and previous threads for several years, starting at least with Sluggo's early research, the times shown on the FBI maps are not valid. Tom Kaye essentially ruled out the Columbia River as a realistic means for the money to arrive at Tina Bar. The NW Lower River Road, which is built on top of a levee, basically rules out the possibility that the money arrived by water from Vancouver Lake or anything on the east side of Tina Bar. But the money did make it to Tina Bar and that is a "fact"! If it didn't get there horizontally, then about the only remaining option is vertically. In fact, the money at Tina Bar and the location of the placard are the only verifiable physical "facts" after the airliner left Seattle. So the inverted funnel that Airtwardo mentions must funnel Cooper into Tina Bar. Basically, the western edge of that funnel must be no further west that the western bank of the Columbia and the eastern edge must be west of the NW Lower River Road. If Cooper had landed in the Columbia River he would have gone downstream. So Cooper had to land on the narrow strip of land that is between the Columbia River and the NW Lower River Road. In addition, there is no evidence that the money travelled very far in any direction and that limits the north/south Cooper landing point. Robert99

You forget I actually have spoke to the co-pilot and Tina! I have spoke to WITNESSES on the ground. Yes, there where DEFINITE openings when Cooper could have got a casting of lights below the clouds. Witnesses just East of Heisson and North of Heisson - (four of them) said the PLANE was very low and the man claimed to see a shadow in above the cloud level. I think he could hear and was looking in that direction which is near 14. Do YOU know what he could have seen during a break at that point? Or NORTH of there. A Dam, A Signal light on a mountain and another Signal light on a mountain just below that one. The damn Marquis I have talked about and why He bought a marquis 2 carat diamond ring. Perhaps you should try to simulate the shifting of the winds and the clouds and the rain! The known airstrips in 1971 are also a part of this - check them out. The wind is a factor and why the placard ended up West of where Cooper jumped. Just reminding you of the SOLID lead that did exist! Jo, As you have repeatedly been told, you need to pay attention to FACTS rather than your own imagination. There was an overcast at 5000 feet and there were broken cloud layers below that overcast. The placard is NOT going to be blown "upwind" but "downwind" and that means from the southwest to the northeast. The aircraft was at or very close to 10,000 feet above sea level as it passed through the Portland/Vancouver area. If the airliner was flying in rain as it passed thru the Portland/Vancouver area then there would have to be still another layer of clouds above 10000 feet. And no one is going to see a shadow through an overcast and several cloud layers at night with still another layer of clouds above the airliner to block any moonlight or starlight. I simply don't believe that the copilot or Tina told you anything that would conflict with the above. Your desperate and totally unsuccessful effort to place Duane in the Northwest, in a parachute, etc., and claiming that he was Cooper, or at least knew Cooper, makes you the biggest mystery on this thread. Even bigger than Cooper himself. Jo, what are you trying to get out of this? Robert99

Jo, Cooper and Tina were in the cabin alone for several minutes, maybe 10 or 15, before the airplane even took off. And six minutes after takeoff, Cooper told Tina to go to the cockpit. During this time Cooper put on the parachute and sliced up one of the reserves. Tina also showed Cooper how to operate the aft stairs controls during this time. Tina also saw Cooper tying the bank bag around his waist as she closed the forward curtain just before entering the cockpit. There is no problem time wise with Tina's location. Since the aircraft was above an overcast prior to the jump, Cooper could not have been looking for signals on the ground since he could not see the ground. If you or Blevins are actually interested in the details of the Cooper hijacking, a good place to check for information would be the transcripts and other materials on Sluggo's web page. Robert99

Blevins, The problems with the times has been known for years. And I may have posted on these problems a few dozen times myself right here on the Cooper thread and elsewhere. Are you aware that the Cooper jump zone was reportedly worked up on the night of the actual hijacking? This was not a leisurely academic exercise done days later. Robert99

Blevins, Earlier this evening you were going along with some "very smart" people on the jump point. Now, in the quote above you plainly say that if you can come within six miles of the jump point then you are doing better than anyone previously. Have you noticed anything inconsistent with your claims? Six miles is not very precise in a matter such as this. Robert99

Blevins, You still do not understand that the so called 24 by 36 inch opening did not have anything at all to do with whether Cooper backed down the stairs or not. It is totally irrelevant how he went down those stairs. Also, from the newspaper article you quoted, Cooper did not specify ANY specific route to Reno. He did agree to go to Reno but neither V-23 or any other airway was even mentioned to Cooper or by him to anyone else. Instead of reading newspaper articles, it would be a good idea for you to read the radio transcripts themselves. Nothing beats going to the original sources. Robert99

Blevins writes: Let me quote Rataczak again: Blevins, Just a couple of days ago, you were claiming that Cooper had to jump through an opening between the aft stairs and the fuselage that was only 24 to 36 inches. Nevertheless, you have quoted Rataczak as stating that was only the in flight free fall of the stairs under its own weight. Rataczak then explains about the additional opening of the stairs with a jumper on the stairs. Blevins, You should really take the time to read your own posts as well as those by others. Robert99

Jo, I would have sworn a "tie tac" was used with a tie.

Blevins writes: Robert99: Tell me you haven't suggested that the flight path somehow makes it possible Cooper jumped within reach of Tina Bar? And who said I claimed KC was Cooper? How in the frock would I know that? (*Insufficient evidence to convict*) Robert99 replies: Blevins, I have NOT said that the FBI flight path makes it possible for Cooper to have reached Tina Bar! And I have repeatedly pointed out the problems with the times and distances on the FBI maps. Are you denying that you have a book out claiming that KC is Cooper? You are now claiming that you don't have any information as to whether KC could be Cooper? What does f-r-a-u-d spell in your fair city? Blevins writes: I don't get WHY people are asking who laid out the flight path of 305, i.e. 'Where Should We Search'. We're talking Sluggo-site maps with lines on them. And cross lines, and approximate times penciled in. And using those maps to deploy search teams. Okay. You want to recreate the flight, just follow the maps I suppose. Well...Paul Soderlind and his team at NWA had a large hand in all that. Folks at the FBI. Radar guys (and possibly gals) Crew of 305. Robert99 replies: Blevins, From what I can see of the above, only the radar people and the flight crew might have any first hand information as to the flight path. The people with the second hand information would have to rely on their statements. All position information would have to come from radar and instruments in the airliner cockpit. At best, they would have a potential several mile error. You do understand that the flight was at night and the airliner was above an overcast don't you? Blevins continues: This is a question for the FBI. You want to validate the flight path, see if they screwed up. Understandable. You want verification. I'm big on that, too. But Soderlind was good at his job. Brass Tack Time: You want to discount the official flight path, you had better come to the table with solid evidence showing it is wrong. And you'd better be smarter than Paul Soderlind, who may have been the best pilot ever to come out of NWA. Robert99 replies: No doubt the FBI and Soderlind appreciate your compliments(?), but why did the original drop zone prove to be incorrect? And why wasn't a correct one ever produced? Robert99

Jo writes: Robert99 replies: Jo, Shutter has been making sense all day and you need to pay attention to what he is telling you. The stairs in the FBI tests were NOT locked down! This can be seen from the photos, videos, witness reports, etc. of their movement that have previously been posted on this thread. Prior to 1971, the 727 was modified for jumping activities in SE Asia. Those modifications included flight tests of the changes. But to my knowledge, no one has described specifically what the modifications to the 727 consisted of. Robert99

Blevins, Do you have some names for these "outside experts"? Robert99 Who worked on the flight path of 305 after it left Seattle? Is that like a trick question or something? You should know the answer to this already. Let's just say LOTS of people. Okay. Radar info. The FBI. Certain people from Northwest Airlines. But you already knew that. If you want to discredit the official flight path, you will have to give PROOF on why it's inaccurate. You're just trying to dodge around all that in order to promote your They-Flew-Over-Tina-Bar-Which-Explains-Why-The-Money-Was-Found-There-And-Cooper-Must-Be-Dead stuff. Blevins, I am not trying to sell books or "stuff" (whatever you mean by that) and I didn't ask you a "trick question". So are you admitting that you don't have any names to back up your claims? However, I must confess that some of those names in Georger's list seem familiar from somewhere. It looks as if all the action on the thread took place late last night and real early this morning while I was getting some sleep. Robert99