Robert99

Here is my guess - repeat guess - about the gages. The top one is a clock. Notice that it has 12 numbers (modulo 12) with what appears to be hour, minute, and second hands. There appears to be a knob at the 7 or 8 o'clock position which could be the means to set the clock. The middle one is a rate of climb indicator. Note that it appears to have only one needle showing and that needle is pointing to what would be the 9 o'clock position if this were a modulo 12 instrument (which it is apparently not). Climb indicators do not have a means to "zero" them and none is visible here. That also rules out a "g meter" which does have a button to "zero" it. The bottom one appears to be an altimeter with two needles, one showing thousands of feet and the second one showing hundreds (and fractions of hundreds) of feet. But altimeters have knobs for adjusting the barometric pressure and no knob is shown here as far as I can see. Robert99 bottom gauge appears to also have number 1 thru 12...could it be reading 7,000??????? At the moment, I can't think of any aircraft instrument, other than a clock, that uses a modulo 12 numbering system. So until I am proven wrong, I am going to stick with the bottom instrument being an altimeter. But I do need to clarify my remarks above about the number of needles. If this instrument is a recent manufacture 1971 era altimeter, it should have THREE needles. The needle not mentioned previously, makes one-tenth of a revolution for ever 10,000 feet of altitude change. This instrument is typically a thin needle with a small triangle on the rim of the scale. Its purpose is to help avoid altitude mistakes for aircraft that fly at high altitudes, say up to 40,000 feet and higher. The short stubby needle makes one one-tenth of a revolution for ever 1,000 feet of altitude change. The third needle is relatively slender and makes one complete revolution for ever 1,000 feet of altitude change. All three of these needles move proportionally as the altitude changes. For instance, say that the aircraft is at 35,520 feet ASL. The needle with the rim triangle would be slightly more than half-way between the 3 and 4 on the indicator face. The stubby needle would be just slightly past half-way between the 5 and 6. And the third needle would be exactly on the 520 increment. A more understandable illustration is if the aircraft is at exactly 11,000 feet ASL. In this case the rim needle would be just slightly past the 1. The stubby needle would be exactly on the 1. And the third needle would be exactly on the 0 at the top of the instrument. I can't decipher the picture in question very well at all. But if the needle pointing between the 5 and 6 is the stubby needle, and the needle pointing to about the 3 is the third needle, then the altitude would be about 5,300 feet ASL. If the needles are transposed from the above, then the altitude would be about 3,550 feet ASL. I don't see the rim needle anywhere. Robert99

Here is my guess - repeat guess - about the gages. The top one is a clock. Notice that it has 12 numbers (modulo 12) with what appears to be hour, minute, and second hands. There appears to be a knob at the 7 or 8 o'clock position which could be the means to set the clock. The middle one is a rate of climb indicator. Note that it appears to have only one needle showing and that needle is pointing to what would be the 9 o'clock position if this were a modulo 12 instrument (which it is apparently not). Climb indicators do not have a means to "zero" them and none is visible here. That also rules out a "g meter" which does have a button to "zero" it. The bottom one appears to be an altimeter with two needles, one showing thousands of feet and the second one showing hundreds (and fractions of hundreds) of feet. But altimeters have knobs for adjusting the barometric pressure and no knob is shown here as far as I can see. Robert99

Your calling a US Marine a "trained killer", and by implication everyone who has served in the US Military, is beyond the pale. Did you, or any of your relatives, serve in the US Military at any point or did you just sit on you lazy ass and live off the efforts of other people? Do you have any proof that the Marine in question ever killed any human or even a wild animal? Robert99

I found the site where I got the pics.... http://gma.yahoo.com/photos/d-b-cooper-40-years-later-1322067445-slideshow/d-b-cooper-photo-1322066420.html The FBI pictures I saw were on this thread and appear to have been of somewhat better quality, or at least larger, than the ones found by Shutter on another site. Robert99 do you think those gauges can be found? I don't really understand the need for them if they were trying to replicate the actions? why not use the gauges in the cockpit as the pilot did? I'm sure they marked those readings as well. unless these were different from the panel gauges????? Apparently the FBI wanted to get several things on the same photograph related to the stair position and what was on the stairs. So they positioned the instruments so that they would appear in the photo and they probably used time as shown on the clock to make some estimates about the boxes, stair position, etc.. Robert99

I found the site where I got the pics.... http://gma.yahoo.com/photos/d-b-cooper-40-years-later-1322067445-slideshow/d-b-cooper-photo-1322066420.html The FBI pictures I saw were on this thread and appear to have been of somewhat better quality, or at least larger, than the ones found by Shutter on another site. Robert99

Safely? No way. But one hijacker survived a jump from a DC-10 (I think it was) over Indiana one night. If I remember correctly, he lost all of his clothes plus the money bag. He jumped through one of the over wing exits but the irritated pilot had made it a point to be doing about 100 MPH faster than the hijacker had specified. He stole some clothes from a home or somewhere but was arrested within a day or two. A neighboring farmer found the money bag in his bean field the next day and had some trouble with the police when he insisted on keeping it. Robert99

Yes. Do you see that black panel with three instruments on it which is mounted on the right side (looking to the rear) and which appears in the top center of the picture? Is it possible to enlarge that panel enough to read those instruments? I think one of them is going to be a clock (12 numbers) but I was never able to make sense of the other two. Robert99

Were the stairs locked or unlocked during these jumps? Was there turbulence to match the turbulence/icing Rataczak testified to? In other words, are the conditions the same. That is crucial. The oscillations of unlocked stairs everyone testified to the night of 11-14-71 were real. That condition was not fully duplicated, could not be duplicated, by the post-hijacking tests - (people are quick to point that out to me). they were unlocked, you can see them retract up, but not all the way up. Robert99 says this is due to the slower speed. seems to be a plausible answer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ov77VMDy0 Georger, Let me say first that I agree with 377 in that Cooper KNEW that the 727 could be jumped. Cooper also KNEW that the airliner could take off from Seattle with the stairs unlocked and partly down (despite the claim otherwise by the flight crew). Cooper had an argument with Rataczak over that point and finally said to just take off with the stairs up and locked. But he immediately told Tina (according to Tosaw's book) that he KNEW the aircraft could take off with the stairs unlocked and slightly down. The severity of the weather in the Portland area has been VASTLY overstated for the period of the hijacking. The aircraft was flying at night, at 10,000 feet, in a relatively stable air mass. If the airliner was flying in something approaching a thunderstorm when Cooper jumped, as implied by Himmelsbach, then that weather would have to be above the 10,000 foot level. And no such weather is mentioned in any report. In the general area west of Portland on the evening of the hijacking, there is no convection (or vertical air currents such as those found in thunderstorms) producing meteorological conditions indicated in any report. There is mention in the weather hourly sequence reports of about three cloud layers with the top one being an overcast at 5000 feet. Such stable cloud layers support the existence of a stable air mass in general, that is, only minimal turbulence. The only other turbulence producing capability is that caused by the mountains during high winds aloft conditions which is known as wave turbulence. Neither the winds aloft or the geography on the west side of the Portland area support the possibility of wave turbulence that evening. The hijacked airliner was basically flying on the "backside of the power curve" during the trip to Reno. This is a less stable area of operation than higher speeds. Consequently, the airliner (which was being hand flown) would wander about their desired "bug" speed but this was not caused by turbulence. The opening between the bottom of the stairs and the fuselage would undoubtedly vary as a function of the airspeed and wandering around that the airliner was doing. Plus, of course, the position of Cooper on those stairs. In my judgment, it would be a really BAD idea for Cooper to jump from about half way up the stairs since they might move upwards fast enough to strike him before he cleared the aircraft. Shutter, Some time back some FBI pictures taken during the post-hijacking flight tests were posted here. One of those pictures was taken facing the rear of the airliner and showed the stair area and also a panel of instruments mounted between the pressure vessel and the stair area. The instruments on that panel were exceedingly hard to read. If you can find those pictures again, you might be able to work your magic on the instruments and read what they were actually showing. If one was an airspeed indicator, then that should provide some information about the speeds used in the FBI tests. Robert99

Jo, If you see Duane in that picture then you ARE having an episode! Robert99

Was the Cooper Vane only retrofitted to the 727s that were already in service or was it also incorporated into the production of new 727s? It would seem to be more logical to design an electrical switch to prevent the deliberate deployment of the stairs in flight in new production 727s. Robert99

The fellow on the right in the picture does not appear to be the Marla relative. Note the eyebrows, chin, wrinkles in neck, etc.. He appears to be quite a bit older than 30. That may be the stub of a small cigar in his mouth. Robert99

Shave his beard, give him a short hair cut and slick down what remains, pull out his lower teeth, tilt his head down a bit, and you have a perfect match for Duane Weber. Right, Jo? Robert99

Quote Wouldn't an long time NWA employee who had targeted flight 305 for his hijacking KNOW if it was a 727 (the preferred target) or not? It would be easy for him to check. Being an employee of the airline! Why would he have to stand at the counter and ask Hal Williams if it was a 727 that was coming or not? Why would he take the risk of being recognised by a fellow NWA employee(s)? Or the crew on the plane for that matter? Or, if he had checked the crew for the day why would he not know it was a727? Seems like a real hurdle to cross. Don't hit us with "physics and perceptions and time warps change at NWA ticket counters in airports". You could try: "Kenny hypnotised everybody". Cooper could have checked the airline flight schedule for the type of equipment that was PLANNED to be used on the Portland to Seattle segment that day. But he double checked with the agent to see if a 727 was actually enroute as planned. All of this boils down to Cooper having previously SELECTED a 727 as his choice for a hijacking. Robert99

I have...In San Diego & Hawaii...also in Guam but that's arguably not U.S.A. (yet) YOUR 'personal experience' seems to be rather limited in this instance. Your argument isn't with me or Jo - it's with Boeing, so go ahead there Cheif, tell 'em they're wrong. BTW - what happened to you 'leaving' rant? ALL those 'other' DBC discussions you boasted about being so much better than here, turn you away? Just curious ...and if you ya got the huevos to SEND PM's - - try to find the balls to receive them, flashing your skirt like that is bad manners Airtwardo, My argument is not with Boeing but with YOU! My original comments were that the 727 was designed for intermediate DISTANCES, that is shorter than the 707 distances. The original 707 versions could carry about 140 passengers and up. The original 727 versions could carry about the same number of passengers. The 707 and 727 versions had the same forward fuselage interior dimensions. The original Boeing 737 could carry about 100 and up passengers. This aircraft was designed for the "smaller" markets. Everything following "BTW" in your message above does not relate to me or anyone I know. I have no idea what you are talking about and I have not made any such statements. Your irresponsible statements only convince me that you are full of shit. You need to grow up and get your "facts" straight. Robert99

No, I didn't know that and I don't think your "source" knew that either. The 727 was designed for routes shorter than the 707 routes and it was also designed to fit into the air traffic at airports that also handled the 707. Consequently, it was NOT designed for a small airport. Perhaps you are confused by the 737 which was designed for secondary airports while its main competitor, the DC-9, was designed to fit into air traffic along with the 707, 727, etc.. Robert99 You better do YOUR fricking research. The whole idea of using the aft stairs was to make it available to access the smaller airport without the ramps. The Boeing 727 design was a compromise between United Airlines, American Airlines, and Eastern Air Lines requirements for a jet airliner to serve smaller cities with shorter runways and fewer passengers... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_727 Okay! So Airtwardo and Jo think the 727 was designed to serve "smaller cities with shorter runways and fewer passengers" and that the rear stairs were incorporated so that no ground stairs would be needed. Let's consider some facts here based on my personal experiences and observations as having flown on 727s almost from the day they went into service. I have boarded and deplaned from 727s using the rear stairs and the forward door which may have its own retractable stairs installed, may use stairs mounted on a truck, and used "jet ways" when they started coming into use. All of this was at "larger airports". When using the rear stairs, the forward door was also in use without exception. I have never even seen a commercial airliner in the USA use only the rear stairs for boarding and deplaning. I have visited "smaller airports" (and I do mean small in the sense of light traffic) on DC-9s, which also has a rear stairs, and all boarding/deplaning was done through the forward door. The rear stairs were never lowered. The 707 was designed to be an "Intercontinental" aircraft and one version of it was named just that. But the 727 was designed to fill in the gaps between the east and west coasts. The passenger capacity of the original 707 and 727 was not particularly different. But as jets became the way to travel, various versions of these two aircraft evolved to serve specific market conditions. If Boeing built an aircraft for the smaller markets, then it would have to be the 737. And the 737 has evolved a bit over the years that it has been in production. I stand by my original statements. Robert99

Agreed that the actual hijacker's name has never been mentioned on this thread and won't be until he is found. Robert99

No, I didn't know that and I don't think your "source" knew that either. The 727 was designed for routes shorter than the 707 routes and it was also designed to fit into the air traffic at airports that also handled the 707. Consequently, it was NOT designed for a small airport. Perhaps you are confused by the 737 which was designed for secondary airports while its main competitor, the DC-9, was designed to fit into air traffic along with the 707, 727, etc.. Robert99

These 727 missions in Southeast Asia did happen and have been written up by a fellow in Texas. I don't remember his name or the link but they have been on this thread for about the last three or four years. Robert99

Shutter, please don't get Jo Weber going about the Playboy DC-9. Jo will probably start claiming that Duane Weber knew Hefner and dated all the playmates. Incidentally, the Playboy DC-9 ended its days hauling cargo for UPS (I think it was.). It has since been melted down as scrap. Robert99

Let me elaborate a bit more on what Shutter and Georger are writing about these stairs. Normally, there is no need to open a door or hatch on an airliner in flight and they are designed so that cabin pressurization helps keep them closed and sealed. The 727 was just one of several airliners in that time frame that had rear stairs. For instance, the DC-9 was in widespread use in the USA and it had rear stairs as well as did a number of foreign designs. But the 727 was unique in that it was the only airliner with rear stairs that could be deployed in flight. The DC-9 and other airliners could not do this. In addition, it was not "common knowledge", or something that could be observed at the local airport, that the 727's stairs had that capability (or maybe design oversight). So Cooper had to have previous knowledge that the 727's stairs could be deployed in flight and that people and cargo could depart the aircraft in flight by means of those stairs. Since the only place the 727 was being used in this manner was in Southeast Asia, it is logical to conclude that Cooper had knowledge of those operations. When he arrived at the ticket counter in Portland, Cooper had already selected the 727 as the airliner he wanted and he just double checked with the ticket agent. If another aircraft had been substituted for that flight on that day, Cooper would probably have just flown to Seattle, got off the plane, and started looking for another opportunity to do a hijacking. Robert99 Just ignore Jo Weber's rambling in the previous post. It is just her usual wild eyed speculations. R99

Blevins, As you well know, you cannot prove a negative. Once the real Cooper is identified, all other suspects will be eliminated in one stroke and the whole Cooper matter will be over. Until that day arrives, the sponsors of KC, Duane, LD, etc., etc., will make it a point to keep their candidates and themselves in the running. Robert99

Smokin99 is to be commended for sticking to sane and logical posts. This is something that Jo and Blevins should do. But of course they won't. Robert99

yes, I understand what the grave says. we have conflicting records of birth. it doesn't add up to 1931.could you explain how his brother was born 8/11/1931? Social Security says this as well. (see photo) Marla admitted something was wrong on here in 2012, I'll look for it. if you did any research you would find that the cemetery also has conflicting dates. something is wrong here some where. Lynn D Cooper use to be on Social Security death index, can't find him now? here is Marla's response on Jan 30, 2012 this is part of the family tree. note that Dewey is born before LD, just as Marla said. so we know Dewey's birth is correct. I think the death certificate info is just wrong for whatever reason. On the 1940 census LD was 6 (census was in April of 1940, so that means that LD would have been 7 in September of 1940 - putting him born in 1933). Dewey was 8 yrs old on that census. One reference that I've seen puts LD's birthdate as September 12, 1933. So not real sure about the day, but the month is most likely September and the year is most likely 1933. Maybe he lied about his age at some point or --more likely -- whoever he was with at the time of death gave the wrong information to the funeral home and they got lazy and didn't double check it or didn't go back and fix it once they realized it was wrong. Thanks smoke99....I didn't think I had this wrong, sadly it seems his headstone is wrong. this makes him 38 in 1971. I also believe the two photo's I showed are a little more than 8 or 10 months apart, and probably not around 71 either if I were to guess. the guy has records of movement everywhere. this is strange for someone in hiding. why would you be in hiding when nobody is looking for you???????? too many holes. thanks for the update. I have done quite a bit of genealogical research in the past couple of decades and I can guarantee you that you shouldn't believe either the birth/death dates or even the name on the grave stone without further corroboration. Robert99

Timothy Mellon has sued TIGHAR claiming they swindled him out of one million dollars last year in order to finance their 2012 Earhart search. TIGHAR's fund raising has long been criticized and they have had numerous lawsuits on many matters. For juicy details on the Mellon/TIGHAR lawsuit, Google "TIGHAR MELLON LAWSUIT" and take your pick of articles. Robert99

Jo, To repeat, Ron Howard's father is not a jail bird and there is almost no chance that Duane Weber knew him. You could have verified this before even making that statement.