Robert99

Yes, well, what is the evidence? I have read in multiple places that there is no evidence, at least of a meteorological impact. There are no bits and pieces of meteors. Plus, the entirety of the blast area indicates that there were multiple blasts, and all of them were aerial in nature. Nothing had direct contact with the ground except the blast waves and heat, which was extreme - searing heat 70 miles away. That's pretty hotsy-totsy. Bruce, hold on here. Remember that Tunguska wasn't even investigated (no researcher went there) until a decade or two after the event. There is evidence of a single central point indicating a single aerial explosion. The trees at the central point were still standing (with indications of some burning) while the trees surrounding the central point were blown down radially outward with respect to the central point. There has been some speculation in recent years that a relatively small solid portion of whatever it was survived and is what caused a small lake near the central point. Bruce, I have a couple of questions about anti-gravity and anti-matter. What meaningful purpose would an anti-gravity machine(?) serve? If gravity is neutralized, how do you manage to stay on the earth, or in your chair for that matter? Some time back, there was a UFO type that claimed such things used anti-matter for fuel. If matter and anti-matter eliminate each other on contact, what material are you going to use for the UFO fuel tank? Solve the fuel tank problem and you will be named "Engineer of the Century" and have a very bright future. Robert99

Amazon and 377, using your definition of "squibbing" then I can only say that EVER round canopy I have seen open "squibbed", WITH CERTAIN EXCEPTIONS which I will get to momentarily. As 377 used the term in the SEA jumps, I got the impression that he was referring to some delaying device on the canopy itself and not to just an ever day parachute opening. An exception to the above, is one particular zero-zero ejection seat parachute concept that went through at least the dummy ground test stage in the very early days of such seat development (more 50+ years ago). With this design, as soon as the pilot was released from the seat, a mortar fired to stream a drogue chute and the main canopy out behind the pilot. The main canopy skirt was attached to still another ballistic gadget of one kind or another which, at its appointed time, fired laterally (relative to the shroud lines) to completely spread out the canopy. Thus this canopy may be considered as opening, or "squibbing", from the skirt of the canopy to the apex while normal "squibbing" or opening would be from the apex to the skirt. I trust that we agree that we have not discussed "reefing" here or previously. Who is Professor John Kallend? Was he at ND? I can't place the name. Who was testing strato stars at WP in 1971 and where were they doing the testing? I have seen "normal" military parachute jumping in the area of the lake that you managed to pollute, but everything was round. And stop jumping to conclusions about people's motives. Otherwise, join the broad jump competition for the next Summer Olympic games. Re-period. Robert99

Okay. So you are claiming that ALLL canopies "squib" when opening. Even standard low speed emergency parachutes during a routine opening. What do you call those parachutes, which seems to include most if not all rectangular canopies, that have a cloth device that starts out in the opening sequence up close to the canopy and then slides down some lines to the risers as the parachute inflates? Unless you correct my assumptions, I am going to assume that the purpose of such devices is to prevent the canopy from opening to rapidly and to spread the actual opening over several seconds. That reduces the opening shock on both the parachute and the parachutist. I have always seen things like that referred to as "squibbing". Standard low speed emergency parachutes do not have any such devices. In fact, since Cooper was using an emergency parachute that was set up for an acrobatic pilot, who would probably be at relatively low speed and altitude when he had to depart his flying machine, the logical thing to do would be to add an industrial strength spring to his pilot chute, a good kicker plate, etc.. That would get the canopy out into the wind and open as fast as possible. He could deal with the opening jolt damage to his anatomy later. As pointed out in some of the videos you linked, after an ejection at high speed, the human body slows down fast. In one particular video, it was stated that after a level-flight ejection at some speed which I don't remember, the free-falling pilot would slow to 160 MPH (Knots?) in about 3 seconds. Which is why, if the pilot has the altitude to slow down, he will be doing well less than 200 MPH when his parachute (automatically) deploys. So if Cooper pulled the ripcord while still on the stairs, he would be deploying the canopy at 225 MPH and there would be NO "squibbing", as I have used the term here. That canopy will inflate as fast as possible. Period. Robert99

Bruce, You can leave your thermometer at home. The flight crew reported that the Total Air Temperature, as measured on their Mach Meter, was -7 degrees C at 10,000 feet while they were doing 225 MPH. Correcting that value for aerodynamic compressibility heating, the -7 degrees C becomes -12 degrees C or about +10 degrees F at 10,000 feet. The ground temperature at Portland (30 feet ASL) was in the 40s at that time. Go online for a formula to calculate wind chill factor, and read the definition of that term while you are at it. The wind chill factor is about 35-40 degrees (both F or C) below zero at that temperature and speed. Heed the advice 377 and Snowmman have given you on the other matters. Robert99

I have seen a lot more test footage than that, talked to some of the pilots who survived, and gone to the funerals of some who didn't.

Amazon, surely you understand that the parachute Cooper used had a standard canopy with no squibbing capabilities whatsoever. I also know of plenty of ejections at far higher speeds and altitudes (including Mach 3 or so) which were successful. I presume that you are aware that the FAA lists a "low speed" parachute as being rated only for 150 MPH (Knots?) and a "high speed" parachute as being rated for 160 MPH (Knots?). Standard military parachutes from the Cooper era (his parachute was probably manufactured in the 1960s or earlier) were seldom rated above 225 MPH. Back when they were flying F-100s, one of the Thunderbirds (I think it was one of the solo pilots) had a major wing spar failure just as he was pulling up from a low level 600 MPH pass at an airshow along the Texas/Mexico border. He immediately ejected, his canopy was substantially damaged, he suffered some injuries, but he survived and went on to become the USAF Chief of Staff (General Hoerner(?)). Robert99

Amazon, You DID answer one of the questions I asked yesterday. But first, let me answer yours. How many night jumps do I have? NONE. And there is a reason for this. In my younger days I had to take sanity tests to participate in some endeavors and I ALWAYS passed them. What is your excuse? [FULL DISCLOSURE: They were not actually "sanity" tests, but rather tests to determine if I had "realistic expectations" about what I was getting myself into.] So you have made night jumps and survived? Yes. yes I have... quite few of them actually... I love night jumps. You jump you deploy.. and all is right with the world.. summer... winter...each has its own special beauty I do have a metal detector and I have been known to walk in the sand quite a bit. And so there was actually a sunken ship at the north end of Caterpillar Island at some point? Its still there. stuff like that will last indefinitely.. under the water although some of its structure exposes at LOW LOW WATER just 20 years ago Now would you answer the other questions? Mabeeeee Robert99 Also.. your wind chill statements are irrelevant.. 225 MPH with a deploying canopy slows you down to ZIPPO wind chill within seconds. (Pssst you are moving at a few feet per second downward under canopy and drifting with the wind.. peaceful...) Oh and hate to break it to you but the Navy Conical...... it was designed for the zero zero seats too... AND will also squib.. AND are tough as hell to save pilots lives on ejecting from ugly ole yucky NAVY planes that are no longer capable of flying. and the seats will get them out in all kinds of nasty ass angles of attack. Canopy... 26' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-RcMEDLu7Y You are assuming an immediate opening by Cooper and I did not. Under the conditions I was addressing, the wind chill factor is relevant. And you know that I hate to have to tell you this right back, but the Navy conical canopy that was in the 1960 era NB-6 parachutes, such as Cooper used and that I owned, was NOT a zero-zero canopy. I have some knowledge of zero-zero ejection seats from the days when they were first being developed, long before things got standardized, and various concepts for such seats and parachutes were in very limited use or just being developed. When they worked as designed, it was a good day. When they didn't, it was a bad day. I have only seen one live ejection using such a seat under zero-zero conditions and it was a bad day. Robert99

Bruce Smith writes: But I wonder if there are other factors involved. Fear? Panic? etc. R99 replies: Fear to one degree or another is relatively normal. Panic is not normal. And you had better not panic when your butt is in a wringer. Bruce writes: Don't most combat paratroopers jump with varying degrees of asymmetry? Weapons, radios, food, ammunition? R99 replies: The typical paratrooper uses a static line and doesn't free fall. Special Forces and such are something else entirely and reportedly use very advanced equipment with most unusual capabilities and have extensive training in its operation. Bruce writes: How do you access a total newbie who has never parachuted before jumping with a trombone case - and making it successfully to the ground, such as McNally? R99 replies: You wrote elsewhere that he lost the trombone case during the jump. The rest appears to be luck. Bruce writes: I think there is more to assess here, and this issue seems to be greatly affected by "cultural goggles" as Sluggo puts it - if you want Cooper alive, he made it like all the others. If you want him dead, he was a no-pull because of inexperience, cold, panic, etc, and everybody else is dismissed as luckier, smarter, warmer, more experienced, etc. R99 replies: Forget the "cultural goggles" and just stick to the facts of the matter. Robert99

Bruce Smith writes: You do have some factual errors, though. The wind chill factor at the doorway was nil. There was no wind, as many skydivers have pointed out here and elsewhere. . . . . . You don't think Cooper pulled on the stairs? R99 replies: Bruce, it is agreed that the wind chill factor at the pressure hull door in the airliner cabin is zero. Indeed, there is no wind there. But I was talking about the wind chill factor at the foot of the stairs when the airliner is doing 225 MPH. If Cooper pulled on the stairs while doing 225 MPH and with about a 225 pound load, there is no reason to expect a happy outcome. Even today, it is unusual to see a standard military emergency parachute rated for 225 MPH openings with a lot lower loads. Robert99

Amazon, You DID answer one of the questions I asked yesterday. But first, let me answer yours. How many night jumps do I have? NONE. And there is a reason for this. In my younger days I had to take sanity tests to participate in some endeavors and I ALWAYS passed them. What is your excuse? [FULL DISCLOSURE: They were not actually "sanity" tests, but rather tests to determine if I had "realistic expectations" about what I was getting myself into.] So you have made night jumps and survived? I do have a metal detector and I have been known to walk in the sand quite a bit. And so there was actually a sunken ship at the north end of Caterpillar Island at some point? Now would you answer the other questions? Robert99

Blevins writes: No one has discovered a scrap of anything Cooper-related except for what adds up to approximately three bundles of the cash, miles from where the airliner actually was when it passed by that area. R99 replies: So Blevins is now an expert on the airliner's flight path even when the FBI won't touch that subject, some maps of unknown validity to the contrary. Blevins you really do need to get a dictionary and look up the term "circular reasoning". Blevins writes: Second, other hijackers made it to the ground, and at least one of them jumped from even higher than Cooper did, and was carrying more than twice the amount of cash (McCoy). R99 replies: Is this suppose to be a serious statement? Perhaps you are unaware that some differences in weather impacted the Cooper jump. Blevins writes: There is a third possibility. Maybe he just pulled right off the stairs, and as 377 points out, let the chute 'squib' out until it inflated and pull him off the stairs. I favor this idea heavily for two reasons. First, because Rataczak said the stairs will only open 24-36 inches in flight, ("That's just the natural point where they will fall...") and I venture that this situation might make it impossible for Cooper to just go forward down the stairs. R99 replies: Blevins, if you would read your own statement above, you should be able to comprehend that Rataczak was saying that the stairs would only open about 2 to 3 feet under their own weight. With Cooper on the stairs, they would go down further. Surely you are aware that the FBI conducted tests with parachutists walking down the stairs, and facing rearward, until they reached the bottom step while standing upright. Blevins writes: He would have to back down the stairs. Maybe when he reached the bottom and saw the conditions, he just pulled the ripcord right there. He would have been on the ground in minutes. Then there is the problem of the non-working reserve. Although it was never found, it's been pointed out that it couldn't be attached anyway. Best guess is Cooper tossed it or tied it to himself somehow for his own reasons. In any case, if Cooper only had the one working chute, you have to ask if he would really try a freefall without a working reserve. R99 replies: The above is pure bullshit! Do you have any idea of what you are saying? In any event, free falls from high altitude with a single emergency parachute are an every day occurrence. Blevins writes: Winds may have been higher at 10K feet for chill, but the skyjacker would have passed into warmer air reletively quickly. We're talking of an altitude equal to that of Camp Muir on Mount Rainier, not the edge of space. R99 replies: Do you understand what "wind chill factor" actually means? Blevins writes: Most of your theory depends on Cooper deciding to freefall, instead of taking the safer route of basically doing a modified version of a static line jump. With the load he had going, I actually favor that he simply pulled the ripcord while standing near the end of the stairs. R99 replies: Blevins, Nobody has claimed that "Cooper decided to freefall"! And you are making claims that you are not qualified to make. Cooper, parachute, and money bag would weigh about 225 pounds and the airliner was traveling about 225 MPH (those 225s are just coincidental). The canopy in his parachute was not the C-9 that 377 highly recommends. Instead, it was a Navy 26 foot conical canopy and it is very unlikely that it could have survived an opening (no "squibs" here) at 225 MPH with that load. Consequently, Cooper would probably have been on the ground in no more than 90 seconds, but he would probably be descending feet first (a plus), if he followed your recommendations. Unfortunately, his ankle bones would be connected to his neck bones and he would be very dead. Blevins, This was really a silly post from you. There is no other way to put it. Robert99

Robert, what do you think of Earl Cossey's initial assessment that Cooper made it, and in fact anyone with basic parachuting skills could have made a successful jump. Also, Geoffrey Gray, in his memorial pieces on Coss after his death, says that Coss was going back to his original view after telling the world for 40 years that Cooper cratered. Additionally, what's your take on the successful landing of all the copy cats who jumped? 1. Robb Heady 2. Richard LaPoint 3. Martin McNally 4. Richard McCoy If Cooper didn't make it and these guys did, then how come? Why was Cooper different? What made Cooper unsuccessful? After all, McNally didn't even know how to put on a parachute. Dumb luck? Bad luck? Unforeseen difficulties? It begs the question: are the LE who say Cooper didn't make it lying, misinformed, spinning the story for an unknown agenda, or establishing their perspective on facts that are not public at this time? Yes, Larry Carr said repeatedly that Cooper most likely tumbled hopelessly and died as a panicked no-pull. But what did he base that speculation upon? Cossey's assessment from 1972-2012? How come Larry never seemed to include other possibilities, such as those so ably presented by 377 in Portland in 2011? I get the sense from your posts that your basic position is: if the cops say it's true, then it's true. Bruce, There are a number of factors that must be considered in accessing the problems that Cooper would have encountered in the jump. First the weather. The airliner was at 10,000 feet above sea level and also ABOVE an overcast (or an under cast if you prefer). In addition there were reported to be two or three cloud layers below the overcast including at least one that was described as "broken", which is close to being another solid layer. There is no information as to clouds above the airliner which would further complicate the problem. Cooper could not have seen the ground to provide any information as to his body position during the free fall. That is, he could not stabilize and would have tumbled. Adding to the tumbling problem is how he tied the money bag to himself. If he tied it on the side of his body, it would have created an asymmetrical type of tumbling which would have been even more difficult to recover from. The wind chill factor during Cooper's time on the steps and first few seconds of free fall would be around 35 to 40 degrees BELOW zero. Cooper was only lightly dressed, even if he had on thermal underwear, and this low temperature would have definitely impacted him adversely. Taking all of the above factors together, Cooper would have been thoroughly chilled even before he stepped off the stairs. He would have started tumbling immediately as he went through the very turbulent jet wash behind the airliner, he did not have any means to determine his body attitude to stop the tumbling, and things went downhill both figuratively and literally from that point. It is possible that he was completely disoriented, including inability to accurately estimate time passage, within 10-15 seconds after leaving the stairs. In all probability, Cooper was on the ground and dead within 40-45 seconds after separating from the stairs. One of the cable TV networks had a program several years ago on the military's HALO parachute training program in southwest Arizona. The program takes experienced military parachutists and teaches them to do delayed drops. One particular jump in that program is illustrative of the above. It was a completely clear day, no clouds and plenty of sunshine. The trainees had already made a number of free fall jumps and this was their first one with a military belly pack. The student in question and an instructor jumped together. The student was unable to stabilize himself even with the instructor grabbing him to help him stabilize. The student tumbled so violently that I think the instructor got kicked in the head. Finally, the instructor had to back away from the guy and open his own chute. The student eventually did get a chute open and landed safely. But he was booted out of the program the same day. And remember that this jump was made under ideal conditions by a trained parachutist with free fall experience and assisted by an instructor. He just couldn't handle the change in aerodynamics from the added belly pack. My conclusion that Cooper died in the jump is based on my own knowledge and experience in several branches of aviation including parachuting. I think the LE people who agree with this know what they are talking about. There are plenty of LE people with sky-diving experience. In my opinion, if Cooper had been wearing only a single emergency parachute with no money bag, etc., and with an automatic opener, he would probably have survived. As Farflung repeatedly pointed out, those things do get the job done. To the best of my knowledge, the other jumpers you mentioned jumped under quite good weather conditions. And some of them had sky-diving experience. I realize that there are plenty of sky-divers who feel they could have made the Cooper jump successfully using just an umbrella and while carrying a grand piano. Those claims are just beer talk. Robert99

Blevins, You seem to have some difficulties with the English language. I have repeatedly suggested over a long period of time that you get a dictionary and look up the meaning of some of the words you use. In fact, in just the past 24 hours I have suggested several words that you apparently don't know the meaning of. To repeat, the Cooper hijacking was a two-bit crime regardless of the value of the loot. [HINT: The word "two-bit" does not necessarily refer to the loot.] As I have also told you on numerous occasions, there is more to suggest that Cooper died in the jump than has been discussed on this thread. Your allegations that this statement is unsupported are preposterous. Your efforts to disassociate yourself from the KC fiasco are understandable. All I did was point out that you accepted frivolous "evidence" when it supported your claims about KC. But now that those claims have been proven baseless, you are claiming that other people should be held to a higher standard of proof than yourself. Neither KC nor Duane Weber had anything to do with the Cooper hijacking. You will deny this as long as there is a chance of you making a buck from a screen play or book. Jo Weber will continue to claim forever that Duane was Cooper regardless of all evidence to the contrary. Robert99

Wonderful pronouncements, but rather thin. Notice you went to Kenny and Duane Weber the second you were asked to provide anything solid you may have on the idea the hijacker was killed in the jump.

I should get a dictionary? You're kidding. I've edited somewhere around FIFTY books to date. My English is just fine, thanks. You are dancing around the question. You said the evidence points to Cooper most likely being killed in the jump. You called it a two-bit crime and I showed you that the hijacker would have had to ask for just over a million dollars today to get what he actually received in 1971. If you believe Cooper died in the jump, stop quoting me definitions of evidence from the dictionary and provide some. Three bundles of money (approximately) found together on the banks of the Columbia does not prove Cooper died in the jump. It only proves $5,800 was found there. Blevins, Compose yourself and actually read post #54814. Robert99 Scanned it a second time. Didn't see anything on evidence Cooper died in the jump. Didn't see anything that discounts the idea that $200,000 extorted from NWA in 1971 is anything close to a 'two-bit crime'. Blevins, I didn't say to "scan" the post, I said to "read" it. I guess you need to look up the meaning of the word "read" also. Robert99

Jo, I am not going to repeat your post, but Duane Weber did not have anything to do with the Cooper hijacking. Law Enforcement people have reportedly stated that Cooper knew just enough about parachuting to get himself killed. Duane Weber did not even know that much. Duane's life as a failed career criminal simply did not prepare him for such a giant step up in the criminal world. Sorry. Robert99

I should get a dictionary? You're kidding. I've edited somewhere around FIFTY books to date. My English is just fine, thanks. You are dancing around the question. You said the evidence points to Cooper most likely being killed in the jump. You called it a two-bit crime and I showed you that the hijacker would have had to ask for just over a million dollars today to get what he actually received in 1971. If you believe Cooper died in the jump, stop quoting me definitions of evidence from the dictionary and provide some. Three bundles of money (approximately) found together on the banks of the Columbia does not prove Cooper died in the jump. It only proves $5,800 was found there. Blevins, Compose yourself and actually read post #54814. Robert99

There IS no evidence he died. Absolutely NONE. Where do you get that? The money at Tina Bar? You'll have to do better than that. Two-bit crime? In today's dollars, $200,000 would be worth approximately $1,040,000. (Source: Inflation Calculator dot com) I would call that a step or two above 'two bit crime'. Blevins, I have suggested several times that you get yourself a good dictionary and look up the actual meaning of some of the words you use but apparently don't comprehend. Let's take a look at the meaning of the word "evidence". My desk dictionary includes the following meanings for "evidence': 1. Information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. 2. Signs; indications. 3. [Law Enforcement] Drawn from personal testimony, a document, or a material object, used to establish facts in a legal investigation or admissible as testimony in a law court. You are obviously interested in applying the Law Enforcement definition to my remarks. Since you demand a body, I presume you are referring to a "material object" as mentioned above. And the only material object that you will accept in evidence is Cooper's body. Consequently, you are using the most restrictive interpretation from the definition of the term. And this definition is limited to man made courts of law. And the laws themselves are man made. However, whether or not Cooper died in the jump is not subject to man made laws or courts of law. The laws of Mother Nature are the determining factor here and they are not subject to human laws or courts in any respect whatsoever. And there is, in fact, evidence both physical and derived from physical considerations, that Cooper died in the jump. Some of this has been discussed in this thread over the past several years. You really should read the posts on the thread also. It should also be pointed out that your accusations against KC do not meet any of the requirements of definitions 1 and 2 above, much less definition 3. You apparently feel that other people are the ones to present "proof" while you only present wild-eyed speculations to support your claims. Finally, regardless of the amount of the loot, the Cooper hijacking was still just a two-bit crime. In my opinion, it should and could have been solved before the end of 1971 and, in any event, before the end of 1972. It might be a good idea for you to also look up the meaning of the word "two-bit". Robert99

Blevins writes: Thanksgiving 1971 is a day most NW residents remember if they're old enough. No cable, no internet, just the nonstop feeds from TV stations in Seattle from SeaTac. . . . . . Any possible suspects need a solid alibi for that day to be truly eliminated. R99 writes: Blevins, If Cooper was dead on Thanksgiving Day 1971 (the day after the hijacking), would that eliminate your and Jo's candidates? I'm sure both of you will try to find a way to dodge that "alibi". Blevins writes: Of course it would. . . . . . [But] no body, no proof he died. R99 writes: The absence of a body in a case like this is also not proof that Cooper didn't die. But the preponderance of evidence suggests that Cooper did die. The Cooper hijacking is basically just a two bit crime in which Cooper fell through the cracks both figuratively and literally. Robert99

Not really... My interest in answering questions from those who like to cause grief here does not interest me. Too much vinegar under the bridge. Georger was right. Nope try again. The major reason that a bunch of the skydivers here wish that the daily pant load of pettiness just migrate over to the other site where it belongs.. My NAME is JEANNE CAMERON... and I approve this message. Please read my reply to your PM. I agree with your remarks above. My name is ROBERT NICHOLSON and I approve the above message. Robert99

Not really... My interest in answering questions from those who like to cause grief here does not interest me. Too much vinegar under the bridge. Georger was right.

Amazon, Cooper's parachute canopy is probably still in the container. Consequently, there will probably be few UV destroyed remnants. As for the skeleton, there is a very, very remote possibility that after 42 years it might still exist, and probably be buried, very near Tina Bar. With the raincoat and the parachute harness helping to hold things together, DB's bones could still be reasonably intact. Based on your personal knowledge of the Tina Bar area, would you be willing to answer the following questions: 1. When did you base your boat at the boat facility that is now located between the Washington shore line and Caterpillar Island? Do you know when that boat facility was constructed? Were the "mud flats" between the Washington shore line and Caterpillar Island dredged to permit relatively small boat passage? 2. Was there ever a sunken boat, dock, or some type of pier at the north end of Caterpillar Island that would produce vortices in the Columbia River water flow? 3. Have you been on Caterpillar Island and are you familiar with its topography? Is the vegetation on Caterpillar Island seasonal or does it stay essentially the same year round? 4. When the Columbia River water level was about 15 feet or so above sea level, did you still keep your boat in the same facility or did you move it? Robert99

Really? Maybe not. Thanksgiving 1971 is a day most NW residents remember if they're old enough. No cable, no internet, just the nonstop feeds from TV stations in Seattle from SeaTac. And Cronkite. Find out where he was on Thanksgiving that year. Any possible suspects need a solid alibi for that day to be truly eliminated.

Meso and Moderators: I am going to report this as "Spam" although that is probably not the correct way of putting this. A vulnerable 16 year old kid has no business being on this thread and posting such messages as the one above. Robert99

Jo, Specifically what job functions did Duane perform when he was supposedly working for San Diego Aircraft? Don't give me a run around on this point. Just the facts, Jo. Give you answer some thought before replying. I imagine you can figure out why. Robert99