Robert99

Wow....talk about significant dates. I'm surprised no one has commented on this coincidence? Kind of freaky, huh? We were discussing whether or why DB might have picked the day that he did....maybe there was a personal reason?? Just throwing it out there

No prefixes or suffixes. Army address on letter sent to his mother in CA Love Dusty, Duane L. Weber 35608905 Co D - 2st CWS (cannot make out if this is TWS or CWS) Tng Regt. Camp Sibert, AL The letter speaks of the "chemical end" like his Uncle. He is requesting his watch because he needed it in the field and thank his mom for the $1 and for washing his clothes and then states he won't be able to wear them when he gets home. The Certificate I got from the FBI shows March 31, 1943 to July 14, 1943 Undesirable Disharge - Private. The first one I had before the FBI entered the picture had NO DISCHARGE DATE. Discharge date stated "dates unknown". My correspondence with the Veterans affairs - indicated they did NOT have a discharge date. This document is dated Sept 5, 2000. Why did it change after the FBI disputed Duane was never in the ARMY and I had this document in my hands? This mean my dispute with the FBI was in 2001. I kept a log, but too tired to look it up. I did get another one with both dates on it in Sept of 2001. His date of death (3/2895) is on this first form, but I questioned WHY no discharge date until the FBI learned I had knowledge and proof Duane Weber had been in the ARMY. The FBI agent on the phone told me that Duane WAS NEVER in the Navy and the number belonged to a man by the name of WAVY GREENE (I do not know the spelling on that). This is when I informed him I had the documentation and it did NOT belong to WAVY GREENE. This will continue to be a puzzle to me. 5 and 6 where answered in the prior post. Don't think he was there long enough for that - A friend of the family wrote John about seeing Duane at Camp Sibert and talked about his taking the Commander in Chief's vehicle on a joy ride. Seems his dismissal from the Navy was after he had spent some time in the brigg after hitting a 90 day wonder in the head with a bottle of Carstars (havent a clue how to spell that). This incident happened Off base and was about a girl..Duane told me this story and the sister also knew the story regarding the brigg. More information thanyou asked for and/or needed to know, but hope this will help. This is ALL I believe I know about the Army or the Navy. There is the 3rd person story about FT. Benning. This was about his knowing someone who took someone elses place in Ft. Benning. Bear in mind Duane did manage to pose as an Attorney in Treasure Island - so you know I believe this 3rd party story was also Duane. He had told me the guy was found out in a couple of month and I have to assume 'Poofed' like he did so many times. I do know Duane ends up back in CA a few months later. This is when he gets in trouble and ends up in McNeil after being sentenced in San Franciso County to McNeil in early 1945. P.S. Duane knew where very base was - he spoke often of Camp Pendleton and Ft. Lewis. One would get the impression he actually was on those bases. He pointed out McChord and every base we came near in our travels. He was very familiar with WA and OR bases - such as Camp Pendleton - told me about the jumpers there and how they could not go into the restaurants...and going to get food for them. I just don't know why all of Duane's stories about WA and OR and ID indicate he spent lots of time there, but NO one remembers him. I guess he was just a Ghost....no one remembers. Jo, As pointed out in the previous post, if Duane had received a Bad Conduct Discharge from the Navy he would not have been permitted into the Army. Consequently, I have no idea what the Camp Sibert, AL information means. But the good news is that an Undesirable Discharge is actually a step up from a Bad Conduct Discharge. Apparently, an Undesirable Discharge did not create a federal criminal record. So there is a possibility that the FBI is right and Duane was never in the Navy. Do you know when Duane's federal criminal record started? Incidentally, Camp Pendleton is in southern California just south of LA and not in WA or OR. Robert Nicholson

I will answer the questions as best as I can and one at a time 1. Do you know if Duane served in the Army and then the Navy, or was it the Navy and then the Army. (note Duane elderly and deaf brother obtained some of this for me from the family record which now seems to have gone POOF. A. Navy then Army. B. Duane 1st tried to join up by falsifying his age - declaring he was born on June 18 1922. Since this Registration card says Maritime Commission serial # 91-A and guess that would be Navy. (of course he was unable to produce the birth certificate). I do have a copy he tried to alter. Then on Jun 18, 1941 he actually got in on his 17th birthday. His mother gave permission or maybe not - this has always been a real mess. Because the McNeil Island prison has his birthday as June 18, 1920...but he was NOT born until 1924. This form is NOT dated, unless the other thing is a copy of the back. That is dated Nov. 12, 1942. Gives his height as 5'11" and his weight as 167 lbs. All the card says is Selective Service Local Board No. 13 of Summit county, Ohio of Akron, Ohio. 2. Do you know if Duane was drafted or volunteered for service in the Army and/or Navy? A. I guess from this you could say 1st time around he tried to enlist and when he was enlisted with his mothers permission. B. NRS Cleveland 6/18/41 6/19/41 AS NRS Newport 6/28/41 to 827/41 AS US NAS Jacksonville 8/28/41 to 05/30/42 AS Sea2c Discharged May 30 1942 - BAD CONDUCT DISCHARGE. Then it gets really interesting, but later and we learn the BAD boy things. He was a kid trying to be a Man. (he was the baby of the family and born late in life.) Of Course that was NOT an excuse back in those days. Jo, Let me see if I can answer, or at least comment on, some of the above matters. You may need to get bottle of your favorite beverage and find a good chair that you can't fall out of accidentally. That Maritime Commission that you refer is probably not the Navy but may be something connected with the Merchant Marine which was a civilian organization in World War 2. However, some Merchant Marines were designated as veterans a few years ago. Your paragraph 2B has a number of abbreviations. Based on WW2 information on the Internet, "NRS" stands for Naval Recruiting Station (those would be Cleveland, Ohio and Newport, Rhode Island), "AS" stands for Apprentice Seaman, "US NAS" would be US Naval Air Station (Jacksonville, Florida). The "Sea2C" would be Seaman 2nd Class. It is a mystery to me why Duane would have dealings with a NRS in Cleveland and then 11 days later with one in Newport. The "Bad Conduct Discharge" is issued by a Special Court Martial and creates a federal criminal record that nothing will erase. He absolutely would not be in the Army after such a discharge. So if the records you have truly represent the facts, then it is questionable if Duane even served in the Navy in the first place. But if he did and received a Bad Conduct Discharge, he absolutely would have not subsequently been allowed into the Army. I'll continue this with your second posting with the numbers. Robert Nicholson

Oh. I thought some were decoded. The movie certainly gave that impression. Well, no matter what happened the police never figured out who the Zodial killer was to any degree of certainty. What was really bizarre is the investigating detective Dave Toschi who allegedly wrote fake Zodiac communications. What if we had a rogue FBI SA working on Norjack who played with the evidence? I dont think that happened, but the Zodiac case tells you that you cant assume that cops are straight arrow in their investigations. 377 377, Take a look at the proposed solution for the three part message and let me know if you think that is actually a solution. No solution has ever been proposed to my knowledge for the large one part message or for the two very short one word messages. Robert Nicholson

Regardless of what you may think, the Zodiac codes have NOT been broken. In fact, the claimed solution collapses under its own faulty logic. Robert Nicholson

Matthew, Which part of this post is your work? Robert Nicholson

Just try to hang on for another day or two. Robert Nicholson

Jo, The fastest way for you to get that article is to Goggle the "QA" number. You will probably get only one hit and that will be for the LA Times story. According to the article, which was published on Tuesday, December 14, 1971, the letter was received by them on Monday, December 13, 1971, and that it had been mailed in Seattle the previous Friday, December 10, 1971. Your explanation of how you massaged the numbers is very interesting and I will be back in a day or two with my reply to that. But don't get your hopes up. A few additional questions: 1. Do you know if Duane served in the Army and then the Navy, or was it the Navy and then the Army? 2. Do you know if Duane was drafted or volunteered for service in the Army and/or Navy? 3. Do you have any prefixes or suffixes for either the Army or Navy serial numbers? 4. What was the date given by the FBI/VA for Duane's discharge from the Army? Do you know when Duane entered the Army? 5. Do you know the dates of service for Duane in the Navy? 6. Do you know the types of Discharges, or releases from service, that Duane received from the Army and Navy? 7. Do you know if Duane had a Military Occupational Speciality (MOS) in either the Army or Navy? Robert Nicholson

Jo, Would you care to explain your hint? What do you mean "the # 7 is the QA sequencial"? Robert Nicholson Jo, You need to explain what your hint means? Otherwise, your post is meaningless. The "7698QA2753" is probably nonsense. The only place this number can be found on the Internet is in that article that appeared in the LA Times on December 14, 1971. As you have previously indicated in posts on this thread, the number "35608905" is probably Duane's Army serial number during World War II. That number may have a one or two letter prefix. Perhaps there is someone on this thread that is familiar with the Army serial number system from WW2. As you have also previously indicated, the number "283-56-96" is probably Duane's Navy serial number during WW2. Perhaps there is also someone on this thread that is familiar with the Navy serial number system from WW2 and can explain it. Of course, the above assumes that Duane served in both the Army and Navy at some point in the WW2 era. If he did serve in either the Army or Navy, you should be able to get some information from the Veterans Administration on his military service regardless of the type of discharge. As far as your hint, I see no logic involved with the number 7. Again, can you explain what you mean by that hint. Robert Nicholson

Jo, Would you care to explain your hint? What do you mean "the # 7 is the QA sequencial"? Robert Nicholson

I am not sure, but at the time Cooper made his demands, the banks were still open. Seafirst usually closed at 6PM, most branches. It's one of the reasons why a lot of people banked with them, that is, they kept long hours for a bank. I think they stored this fund at their main Seattle branch downtown, or wherever the corporate offices were located in Seattle. Probably main branch. I'm not sure how it worked at the main Seattle, but at a lot of Seafirst banks, the vault thing worked like this: The manager has a key to a door that looked like a jail cell door, i.e. bars, etc. You opened that, and then there was one, sometimes two safes in the room beyond the door. These safes were opened by combination, usually. Or a key, or maybe both, but not generally on a time lock. This is one reason why Seafirst used to get held up so much for so much money. Both Scott Scurlock and the guys who hit Seafirst for 4.4 mil took advantage of this. As I understand it, you are saying that Cooper was probably from the Seattle area and probably had an accomplice. If so, I agree with you on both counts. But are you also suggesting that Cooper was a SeaFirst Bank customer? Robert Nicholson

And how could Cooper possibly guess that this flight would have such low attendance? It was still the day before Thanksgiving. There could have been many other passengers coming into Portland from other destinations, who were on their way to Seattle. He may have just gotten lucky on that one. The idea of Seafirst being closed for Thanksgiving Day is really a non-factor. They would be open on Friday, and most branches were even open Saturdays until 1PM. None of the ransom money would be delivered or obtained by utilizing a branch manager anyway. This could only be authorized by someone at the top of the food chain at Seafirst, in coop with Donald Nyrop. It is almost certain the Seattle police, the FBI, or both, had the important phone numbers handy to contact the right people. They would have this information for any number of reasons. Fires, natural disasters, etc. If NWA was using Seafirst as their corporate bank, then they would have the contact numbers of the important people. I don't think there's much doubt on this one. It wouldn't matter whether the banks were closed or not. Seafirst did not make a habit of closing early before a holiday anyway. They were just closed on the holiday itself. For example, they were open on the Friday after Thanksgiving, and most branches were open until 1PM on Saturday. If it's true that NWA only added the Portland stop three months before the hijacking, this makes it possible the hijacker was familiar with the operation of the airline to a degree. This is not certain, but only a guess. I believe that Cooper was definitely from the Seattle area. There are many hints about it, and most of you reading this are familiar with those. His comments about Tacoma, etc. That's one. But I think one that's been overlooked is a sort of backwards hint: If Cooper were from the Seattle area, WHY didn't he pick a flight going between Seattle and Portland? Two reasons come to mind. If he worked for the airline out of Seattle, he could have been recognized by another employee, especially on an outbound flight out of Seattle. Two, maybe he understood that the money was more readily available to NWA in Seattle because they had corporate offices there, and a large payroll. There was some planning in this, and some of it looks like it came from a guy who knew a lot about NWA but hadn't used a chute in a long time. Another more obvious reason is because he had already planned to jump between Seattle and Portland, i.e. no matter what he was telling the crew about flying to Mexico City or Reno or whatever, he had absolutely no intention of remaining on board long, once he got his money. First, with all due respect to Portland, I doubt if that city could have been considered to be a major hub in 1971. Most people headed to Seattle would probably have taken a direct and non-stop flight from their point of origin if such were available. In the 1970 time frame, the airlines gave huge discounts to travelers, such as grandma and grandpa, but those discounts did not apply on holidays or during the holiday period. So strictly holiday travelers with discounted tickets would have already been in Seattle prior to Thanksgiving eve. The people who boarded in Portland paid the appropriate full fare. The bank in Seattle reportedly did have a large amount of money set aside, serial numbers recorded, and bundled in a random fashion, specifically for ransom or hi-jacking type situations. But where was this money kept? Was it in a vault with a time lock? Or did the janitor keep it in the broom closet? Before Cooper handed the note to Flo, he had seen the other people boarding in Portland as well as getting a look at those who were already on board and going to Seattle. Consequently, he knew that they were not someone that he had seen before. That meant that he could go ahead with the hi-jacking. Also, anyone in Portland who just wanted to get to Seattle for Thanksgiving could have probably driven to any area of Seattle in less than three hours. And they could have done it at their convenience, maybe even on Thanksgiving morning. Robert Nicholson

Well, if this were true, it could mean someone familiar with the day to day operations of the airline may have been involved. Just a guess, of course. In the early 1970s, the airlines put out a publication periodically that listed all the airline flights in the USA, the cities that specific flights served, the times of arrival and/or departure from each specific city, the type of aircraft used on that route, the days the flights operated, etc.. So Cooper would not need to know anything about the day to day operations of a given airline or, for that matter, anything at all about the airline itself. All Cooper would need to do is stop by a library, travel agent, an inter-city airline ticket office, or any other location that had a copy of that publication, and take a brief look at it. He could get all the information he needed in about two minutes of looking. The NWA flight was already airborne and just a few hundred miles from Portland when Cooper asked the ticket agent if it was actually a 727. The ticket agent would have known by that time if some other aircraft had been substituted for a 727. And the agent confirmed that it was a 727. Robert Nicholson

Smokin99, You have asked some good questions. Cooper's actions that day were consistently inconsistent. Cooper definitely wanted a 727 aircraft and confirmed that the inbound airliner was one by asking the ticket agent, "This is a 727 isn't it?". Cooper asked that question after he had already purchased his ticket. To me, this means that Cooper had already checked the airline schedule (the time tables and aircraft equipment were widely published in 1971) and was just confirming with the ticket agent that there had not been a substitution of other aircraft that day. Why would Cooper pick that specific flight? I believe that others on this thread have stated that NWA had only started the Portland stop on some flights from Minneapolis to Seattle about a month earlier. In that same time frame, United also operated Minneapolis to Seattle flights with a stop in Spokane. Presumably, NWA would also have some nonstop flights between Minneapolis and Spokane. Remember that things were heating up with the Alaska Pipeline work in that time frame and NWA and the other airlines in the northwest were typically loaded with people and cargo. Assuming that Cooper was from the Seattle area, it may have been that he thought there would be fewer people on the aircraft from Portland to Seattle, compared to other routes, and that would reduce the possibility of him seeing someone that he knew. It also may be that this was the only 727 going into Seattle at the desired time (but I doubt that). But the weather was definitely not what one would want and Cooper was not dressed for a night in the rain soaked woods. The relatively late hour of 3:00PM when he took over the aircraft seems to have been another factor that was a gamble. Despite all this, Cooper went ahead with the hi-jacking. To me this suggests that Cooper was desperate and, for one reason or another, the hi-jacking had to be done that day. So basically Cooper rolled the dice and lost (at least in my opinion). Robert Nicholson

377, See Tosaw's book pages 32 ff and 69 ff, possibly other pages. The statement about the rigger's card is in the second complete paragraph from the bottom of page 69. Notice the first sentence of that paragraph, just before the sentence about the rigger's card. I definitely thank the first sentence needs some clarification. Also, as a personal favor to me and others, could you get a bill through the US Congress outlawing the publication of books that don't contain indicies? It would save the human race a lot of time and frustration. Robert Nicholson Amazon and 377, I understand that each of you own jumpable NB6 chutes. I also owned an NB6 in early November 1971 (about three weeks before the hi-jacking) that was about 10-15 years old at that time. Today, I can't remember where the packing card was located although I never had any trouble finding it. I also can't remember if the shroud lines were packed horizontally or vertically at the sides of the container. I now own an NB6 container that was manufactured in 1988. This container has a pocket on each side of the upper and bottom flaps that are obviously for use with a packing tool to push the flaps into position during a repack. There are no other pockets on this container that could serve as a packing card pocket. So first, just where was the packing card pocket located on the pre-1971 NB6 chutes? Secondly, were the shroud lines in the pre-1971 chutes stowed vertically at the edges of the container? That is the way they are to be stowed in the 1988 container. Robert Nicholson

377, See Tosaw's book pages 32 ff and 69 ff, possibly other pages. The statement about the rigger's card is in the second complete paragraph from the bottom of page 69. Notice the first sentence of that paragraph, just before the sentence about the rigger's card. I definitely thank the first sentence needs some clarification. Also, as a personal favor to me and others, could you get a bill through the US Congress outlawing the publication of books that don't contain indicies? It would save the human race a lot of time and frustration. Robert Nicholson I knrew it was in a book, thanks for reminding me it was in Towsaw's. Still, is it fact or an author's flourish to spice up a story? If it's fact, it tells us a LOT about Cooper and in my opinion it tells us he was parachute savvy. No Wuffo would know about packing data cards or where to look for them in a military rig. Cooper might have been looking to see what kind of canopy was in the NB6 container. If it was a 24 ft military canopy he might have (wisely) opted for the sport rig. A 26 ft Navy conical would have been OK. A 28 ft. C9 round is a nearly ideal high speed deployment canopy and big enough to give you a chance of an injury free landing. If I thought I might be opening at speeds in excess of 150 mph I'd have picked the C9. Sport chutes of that era were actually labled with warnings not to open at speeds exceeding 150 mph. I just we had some independent verification of the packing card inspection by Cooper. Is it in a witness interview summary? 377 The information apparently came from Tina during an interview after the hi-jacking was all over. As I mentioned earlier, the sentence before the one about the rigger's card definitely needs some further explanation. However, even if Tina didn't know what a rigger's card was, and even if she had never seen a parachute before, she could easily say something like "Cooper pulled this small card out of a pocket in the parachute and looked at it". And that statement could stand on its on. Robert Nicholson

377, See Tosaw's book pages 32 ff and 69 ff, possibly other pages. The statement about the rigger's card is in the second complete paragraph from the bottom of page 69. Notice the first sentence of that paragraph, just before the sentence about the rigger's card. I definitely thank the first sentence needs some clarification. Also, as a personal favor to me and others, could you get a bill through the US Congress outlawing the publication of books that don't contain indicies? It would save the human race a lot of time and frustration. Robert Nicholson

Robt, where did you get this? Your own or from an old post of Knoss's ? Just curious. Himmelsbach may have touched on this subject. I don't remember for sure. But I would presume that the banks in Seattle would start closing no later than 4:30 PM (or whatever their usual weekday schedule closing time was). Not from Knoss. Robert Nicholson

A practice run for McCoy by somebody McCoy knew? That the two hijackings are related. I always come back to this wild idea for some inexplicable reason I cant shake. Pay no attention!

Cossey had a strong alibi. He was fully exposed. Moreover, if I understand the events/facts correctly it was Issaquah that was initially contacted, not Cossey. Issaquah then contacted Cossey. And Issaquah would never have been involved at all until a specific event happened. The chutes were originally going to come from McChord. The chutes Cossey supplied at the last moment were personal chutes he had at his home, not at Issaquah. Had Cossey not supplied his chutes there would have been additional delay ... I agree. Sheridan was not totally unique. It's possible Pete was contemplating a sport jump from a 727. He had a history of attempting creative skydives (eg homemade bat wings). Lots of people had such ideas and communicated these ideas. Hijacking airplanes had become a fact of life. It was only a matter of time until someone would combine parachuting from a plane with hijacking. The particular configuration of the 727 made that inevitable. (and some engineer had probably anticipated what some criminal might try, but nobody took it seriously until it happened). McCoy even talked about it in advance! If the main chute that Cooper took actually had the rip cord on the right side it suggests two possibilities. Tina is quoted in Tosaw's book as saying that Cooper did a complete "pre-flight" of the main chute as she was standing beside him. This included checking the packing card. The first possibility is that Cooper was left handed and assumed that he was jumping either an emergency or sports chute intended for left handed people. Second, Cooper was right handed but prefered that chute to the other one for unknown reasons. If Cooper was in fact right handed, then a right side rip cord would greatly increase the possibility of a no-pull unless he had some parachuting experience. It should be remembered that in the early 1970s, there were plenty of skydivers using a right side rip cord with a belly reserve. Perhaps Cooper had seen some of those. I personally have never seen anything in the FAA regulations stating that the rip cord for emergency chutes had to be pulled only with the right hand. But I have also never seen an emergency chute (either chest, back, or seat) that wasn't set up for the rip cord to be pulled only by the right hand. Robert Nicholson

Bruce, May I add some additional insights that I have learned within the past month based on personal experience with wildfires. The time to start preparing for an emergency evacuation is about three years before the need arises. Perhaps important paperwork could be scanned onto computer disks and those disks stored in safe deposit boxes. Don't expect to get the word about an emergency evacuation before the fire gets to you. Actually, it was the smoke and ash that got to me before any word about an evacuation. Thanks to a four lane divided highway on the other side of my rear property fence, the fire trucks were able to easily maneuver on the highway to keep the fire itself about 2 to 3 hundred feet from my house (and upwind at that). However, the fire did burn some parts of the highway median and in at least one case made it across the highway into a weeded area but was contained by the fire fighters. But no one on my side of the highway lost any property to my knowledge. The moral of this story is to plan ahead. When the smoke and fire starts is much to late. Robert Nicholson

Blevins writes: I think it's time to take another break from the DZ. Mr. Blevins, You'll be back tomorrow (which is probably today). At least that is what happened the last three times you quit this list. Robert Nicholson

Blevins writes: Kenny Christiansen may or may not be Cooper, but he is a suspect. Who says KC is a suspect? Authors pushing books don't. It would take someone with a badge to do so. Robert Nicholson

We all agree now that the Cooper airplane was tracked by F-106s. And that the LaPoint aircraft by F-111s. As Farflung suggests, the F-111s could have easily come from Nellis and they wouldn't necessarily have to come from an operational squadron. The F-111s, with their changeable sweep wings, could easily stay with the 500 to 600 MPH DC-9 for its entire range and then some. All they were doing was staying back and waiting for a body to come out of the airliner. This means that within a matter of weeks after the Cooper hi-jacking the FBI had an agreement in place with the USAF, and probably the other military aviation organizations, for tracking hi-jacked aircraft. Robert Nicholson

Jo I hate to disappoint you but I know Robt99 pretty well and he is an extremely competent, highly experienced, and highly trustworthy person who I have great respect for as a person. I am speaking from experience. Whether I am taller or shorter is irrelevant. G. Georger, Thanks. The check is in the mail. Robert Nicholson