Robert99

Jo writes: I am the only person who has ever put the money in that river in 1979. Jo, You have NEVER put the money in the river. In your own previous posts on this thread, you have stated that you did NOT know what was in the paper sack (or sacks) that Duane threw into the river. You are apparently trying to make a federal case out of Duane just throwing trash into the Columbia.

For the record, I also believe that the money was moved by water to where it was found. But I do not believe that it was moved any great distance. Certainly not 10 or more miles. Also, I am not a rocket scientist or a brain surgeon either.

And how did it get there by natural means again? Tom Kaye's tests say otherwise. This only means that if Cooper was at Paradise Point he didn't toss the money into the river there. I speculated on a river toss, sure, but I've discounted that theory. Unless three of the bundles had little strings connecting them together, it doesn't make sense that three would mysteriously end up in the same exact spot after floating down the river. You are assuming that the money was planted or placed or ended up there RIGHT AFTER the hijacking. You don't know that. Neither do I. And why doesn't a plant meet your 'smell test'? You didn't say why. And if Cooper planted the money later, say a few years later...then it worked quite well. What did the FBI start saying after they found it? That he probably died. We agree on this one. The fact that Tom Kaye was able to determine that bundles of money sink rather quickly also proves this. You are REALLY reaching here by saying Cooper landed near Tina Bar on solid ground. And if he did, where's the body, the parachutes, the rest of the money? Okay...you are saying he lived and that he planted the money by saying this, you know. Or that he dropped it or something. Also, Tina Bar is on the west side of Interstate 5, and miles from where both NWA and the FBI figures he jumped. Proof from you that negates those estimates? Blevins, The only thing we agree on is that Tina Bar is on the west side of Interstate 5. Where is YOUR proof that NWA and the FBI know where Cooper jumped? You need to do some checking into your sources rather than just parroting the claims of others. Also, you might ask NWA and the FBI "where's the body, the parachutes, the rest of the money", etc. Your idea that Cooper would plant the money several years after the hijacking is just plain laughable! He was home free at that point. The FBI didn't have a clue and you yourself have stated that no banks were even looking for the money after about three months. Cooper didn't have anything to worry about at that time. While I understand your need for Cooper to survive the jump and plant the money at some date, otherwise KC will be eliminated as a suspect, not a single thing suggests that Cooper was alive on November 25, 1971. You cannot prove that Cooper survived the jump by circular reasoning. While that may be satisfactory for writers of fiction, Mother Nature does not work that way.

I go with Tom Kaye's assessment. The money did not end up on Tina Bar by floating there. But you were right, Farflung, to bring up those points. Paradise Point State Park was a guess. No one of course, knows for sure where an accomplice would have waited. I don't think the money would have been planted there at the time of the hijacking, anyway, although I'll admit it has crossed my mind. It was probably done later on a second trip. It's a guess, but one motivation might be if after a few years the hijacker realized the hunt for him had not ceased, and he decided to take matters into his own hands. And if that WAS his motivation, it worked very well, because after the FBI announced the money find, they also started saying they thought Cooper was dead. If the hijacker were alive at that time, he probably laughed his ass off on that one. In the book, we speculated that maybe it was done before the hijacker and his alleged accomplice returned home, but there's no way to know for sure. I tossed this point back and forth with Skipp Porteous a few times. Was it done right after the hijacking, or later? We went with 'right after'. Looking back now, I probably should have said it may have happened a few years later. If we do a third edition of the book, I will change that for sure. One thing is certain: The money got there somehow, and probably not by natural means. I've always said the money at Tina Bar raises more questions than it answers. In reality, the money at Tina Bar answers more questions than it raises. And the money probably did get there by natural means. As has been pointed out by Farflung and others on this thread, water runs down hill and Paradise Point State Park is down stream from Tina Bar. The idea of Cooper planting the money to mislead the investigators doesn't meet the smell test. And if that was Cooper's plan, it failed since the money wasn't found for more than eight years. The fact that three bundles of money were still intact with rubber bands around them means that they didn't travel very far, certainly not 25 miles. A rational look at the money find leads to only one conclusion. And that is that Cooper landed near Tina Bar and on solid ground.

While sports parachuting was still relatively new in 1971, there was no problem with the lingo. Cooper wanted front parachutes that could be attached to the back parachute harness. According to Tosaw's book, when Cooper saw that the front chutes could not be used with the back chutes, he told Tina that "they" should have known what he meant. And that was two functional sets of chutes each consisting of a front and back chute.

If Cooper pulled the packing card (no proof that he did) he'd know what canopy was in the rig. If he was an experienced jumper he'd know that a military bailout rig like that, in 1971, with no D rings for a reserve VERY likely had a 28 foot C9 or 26 foot Navy Conical round canopy in it. Those miltary canopies were built like tanks, but the sport ones were not. They didnt need to be rated for high speed deployments (above 150 mph) and the designers strove for minimizing pack volume. 377 377, In several decades of checking an emergency chute's packing card before each flight, I don't remember a single one that listed the type of canopy or its speed rating. That includes civilian chutes as well as "composite" military chutes. The FAA "low speed" emergency parachutes are rated to 150 MPH and their "high speed" emergency parachutes are only rated to 160 MPH. I have owned both types of FAA chutes. In the case of the military chutes, I never knew what it was actually rated for speedwise. However, I have seen test data for some military chutes that indicated they were good to 225 MPH depending on the weight of the jumper and load being supported. For high speed aircraft, as well as zero-zero ejection seats, the speed rating is way up there.

We only assume it was a hard pull because Cossey said so. Cossey seems to enjoy spoofing and playing with people who inquire about the Norjack gear. We have a few examples of that. A C9 canopy in an NB6 rig doesnt have to be a hard pull, even if the handle has been moved to right outboard. Cossey allegedly has told some people it was an NB8 not an NB6. An NB8 has a larger container volume. Even an NB6 container can be extended giving more volume inside the closed rig. It's an easy job for a rigger and many surplus rigs had this mod done. The bailout rig that Cooper jumped was originally configured as someone's last chance to survive. It was probably made for a jumpship pilot. Does it make sense that you'd set it up to be nearly impossible or highly difficult to open? Some jumpship pilots have bailed out VERY low as most wait for all the paseengers to get out first if there is a fire or structural failue. A hard pull adds deadly seconds to deploying a chute. Does that make sense for an emergency rig? Think about it. 377 377, There is no evidence that Cooper knew that a C9 canopy was (supposedly) in that container or that it would be a (supposedly) hard pull. But Cooper definitely knew the 727 could be jumped.

Taco and Marla, Can you name a single thing that your candidate, LD Cooper, knew about aviation that would be applicable to this hijacking? You two, along with Blevins and his confederates, seem to be getting desperate in the extreme. Jo, of course, will still believe it was Duane even after DB Cooper's body is found.

You have just jumped to three unsupported conclusions. In addition, do you believe everything you read in a book (including your own)?

Sailshaw, You might also ask Gray why the FBI has not released the full Seattle Air Traffic Control Center's radio transcripts for the flight south with Cooper on board. If Gray claims ignorance, then you might suggest that he take the time to read those transcripts and compare them with the Oakland Center's transcripts. Both can be viewed on Sluggo's web page.

Yes, Your Hunkyness - that was a great poster - the best! It makes the history of the stairwells a LITTLE more acceptable to all of the DORKS who think - Cooper worked at Boeing or that Cooper's grude had to do with Boeing. That particular plane just happened to suit the needs of the jumper and it was available in the area he chose on that day in 1971. Cooper chose WA state because it was NOT as accessible to law enforcement - making it easier for him to run and to hide (if he survived). Also - he knew the area very very well - like the back of his hand. He didn't need a map to know where he was when he got on the ground. This little discussed fact was essential to his survival if he made it to the ground alive. His history with the area was not RECENT - meaning someone might not recognize him. HAS anyone ever wondered why the stewardess had to come out and get their LAST passenger? Have ALL of you forgotten this one very very important fact? Was Cooper thinking about backing out? Was he watching baggage being loaded on that plane or another plane? Was Cooper boarding last, part of a Plan - if so it was a poorly thought out plan? The passengers where so busy getting themselves seated and their possession stowed they paid no attention to that last passenger who boarded and who walked right past all of them. Did Cooper act normal during that boarding process? I think not. Has anyone ever thought about this - Cooper didn't expect to survive and he was scared. When the money actually arrived he got Giddy - then he had to finish what he started. I think this is when the REAL fear stepped in. I think Tina saw the FEAR in his eyes. Tina had already learned enough about this man - to know he was "very SAD man". Cooper was suicidal. When their eyes made contact after the money arrived - she saw in his eyes what I now know and understand about Duane Weber - a man whose youth and future was compromised by the system. He had no HOPE. Tina's faith guided her to make the only decision her faith and her religion would allow her to process. She went through the process of the ID's and the questions the FBI kept asking, but in 1979 - she knew Cooper was well and alive, but he had NO idea his visit to the N.W. would shatter her world. Jo, You have my compliments. The above post is a real uplifting piece of fiction with a teaser at the end. Is there going to be a sequel?

Farflung, Perhaps you can find the answer to another question. Why did the FAA's mandate for the installation of a "Cooper Vane", or its equivalent, only apply to the Boeing 727? If other aircraft could lower the aft stairs in flight, why weren't they mandated to do something to prevent that action?

I think a copycat skyjacker jumped from a DC 9 a few years after Norjack. 377 I am aware of that incident. However, there seems to be some confusion as to even the aircraft type as well as the exit he used.

Blevins writes: I wouldn't judge the book badly based on whether Gray used Vector or Victor. Robert99 writes: I would. Especially since he starts the book off with that mistake. To me it means that he doesn't have even a general knowledge of the subject. Unless, of course, his "subject" is really just the personal interactions of the people who pass through the story. And we know that includes a full range of characters, some of whom are not always representative of the human race.

DC 9s were flying in 1971. 377 377, Do you have a source that categorially states that the DC-9's aft stairs can be lowered in flight? My information is that it could not.

The sad part is: Gray knows no more than he has been given in many cases and the accuracy of that will be in question. That's the risk people take in writing books of this nature. Still they go ahead. Just the kind of incomplete vagueness Blevins likes. You can do anything with that. Your next limitations is your intelligence!

G_Jones writes: All he factually needed to know about the plane, somebody could have told him. Jump from a 727, make sure it is flying low and slow, and watch out for air marshals. Robert99 replies: For starters, somebody would have to tell him to select a 727 since it was the only airliner in operation at that with an aft stairs that could be lowered in flight. And that information was very closely held. NWA didn't know that and even some Boeing people didn't know that. To jump from a 727 does not necessairly require that the aircraft be going slow and you wouldn't want it to be very low. Air marshalls were not a factor at all in this hijacking. G_Jones writes: I do think if Cooper was from or knew the area well, even with fog he'd have an idea where he was jumping, at least from lights from the interstate and the glow from Vancouver and Portland. If Cooper was a pilot then he'd probably have a very good idea where he was. Robert99 replies: It seems to keep getting lost in the translation that there was an overcast at 5000 feet with about three other layers of clouds below that. The airliner crew has been quoted in several places as saying that they could not even see the glow of lights from Portland as they passed nearby. They certainly would not have been able to see cars on the Interstate. Pilot or not, Cooper did not have any means, except a wild eyed guess, as to his geographical location when he jumped. G_Jones writes: He was quiet and efficient and had nerves of steel, which were aided by nicotine. Robert99 replies: His "nerves of steel" were also aided to some extent by some bourbon and soda (or whatever), except that he reportedly spilled about half of the liquor.

Jo writes: Facts? Where did I state that? Pyramid Lake, Nevada. I've never been able to come up with a map showing the actual flight path. The Pyramid Lake area is an assumption. Jo, You can forget Pyramid Lake since it is northeast of the Reno airport. Just a handful of miles north of the Red Bluff, CA airport, the airliner turned and flew directly to the Reno airport.

Taco, If the statements you make above are true, or anything close to it, you must be a senior FBI official in Washington. So it is time for you to come clean or just stop blowing smoke.

Jo, Do you vote in every election and for the best candidate? If not, you have no cause to complain.

I'm just speculating as to why he chose that specific route. Was Seattle integral to his plan or would have any 727 out of Portland sufficed? There seems to be no way to know for sure if he had some plan to jump in a very specific spot, or no plan at all. What do you think "the right time" would be? Basically, the only direction that Cooper wanted to go was south from Seattle. Reno was just a throw in. Based on Cooper's expressed desire to take off from Seattle with the rear stairs down, it appears that he intended to jump very near Seattle.

Maybe from this? http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-woman-who-claims-uncle-was-infamous-skyjacker-says-she-passed-fbi-polygraph-test/article/3591817?custom_click=headlines_widget As we know, she is releasing a book of her memories concerning the event. What could she possibly have to fill a book? Some vague, suppressed memory from when she was eight years old? A conversation that she had with her father, in 1995, that she only now remembered? Memories that are, only now, surfacing? If it were my uncle, I don't think I could had suppressed anything like a hijacking. That story also says that an FBI spokesman in Oklahoma City cannot confirm that she was given a polygraph test. Does that mean that Taco is her press agent?

Taco, "Getting taken seriously by law enforcement and investigators" and being correct are two separate things. How do you know that Marla took a lie detector test and passed? Your source?

Cooper was definitely looking for a 727 and he double checked that it was a 727 with the ticket agent. Portland was also probably the nearest city that had a 727 flight, and at the right time, into Seattle. However, since the airliner was about 5000 feet above an overcast on the flight south through the Portland area, landmarks could not be seen. Even the lights of Portland could not be seen according to the flight crew.

Jo, You are already looking elsewhere before you have completed your primary mission on this planet of proving that, despite all contrary evidence, Duane was Cooper. Are you just a butterfly?