stratostar

If they can not do it safely every time (quote) There have been more then one jumper who thought they could do it every time and did, and were very experienced and now their dead or learning to wipe their ass again. Sorry I don't see the point in risking the last few feet with a wuffo on the front for a thrill or to look cool to those watching. If others disagree that is ok, I won't be the one paying the price should it go wrong. ~ you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

I'm not saying your thinking is wrong or your plan of action. I personally don't think I would waste the time to turn, with that said, you never know what you might do until presented with it in real life. It's all good, just as long as you have a plan and think ahead and seem to me that you are thinking ahead and coming up with a plan, so carry on, good questions you have asked. ~ you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

I like the 10 and 20 d's better then the rebel cuz the case is heaver duty IMHO, but the rebel is still a nice camera and weight is lighter then the 10 and 20d. I have only jumped a olympus N20e the 10d. The olympus E20n was a good camera but the remote sucks ass and the 10d I replaced it with would run circles around the E-20n. The 10d I loved it till I lost it on the last jump of last season. I got it from Ritz camera and have the ESP plan and I'm waiting for the replacement (no cost to me at all), from what I'm told they are sending me the 20d to replace it cuz they don't carry 10's any more.

Anyways I like idea of turning and dumping my reserve if I am under 1500. (quote) That is a fair answer and good choice of handles to pull. Ok your down and REAL dirty now at 120mph, take's a second for your mind to process the info for each thought, another second to start to turn, another second to do the turn, another second to reach for your handle, another second to pull it, that is now five seconds that have gone by from 1500ft at 120mph, now how low are you getting a canopy out? That answer might surprise you. If you have never been down in the basement like that you don't know what real ground rush is, I've been there and done that it's not a place you want to find yourself no matter how many jumps you got, to close for comfort for me. ~ you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

While I can respect other point's of view who don't agree with mine, I'm trying to look at the bigger picture. From a legal stand point (I'm no lawyer) I would think the precedence has been set, due to to fact groups like USPA have been preaching for at least the last 10yrs that hooking as student or newbie is not smart or a good thing to do. So hauling first time meat they should not be taught/shown any different to what is in print. (BSR's) Should a good lawyer do his home work and find the many years of "us saying don't do that" it would be easy to show that you knew better then to be doing it, and did anyway. It may not work the same in other countries (legal systems) as here in the states, but I would think the lawyers would have a field day here in the states, yes the waver might still hold up, but how many TI's would be willing to spend in legal fee's 10K, 20K, 30K ect. to beat it. I don't have that kind of cash nor do I know to many TI's who do. Ask any of the DZO's who have had to defend their waver in court and see how much it cost to win. I just think your opening up everyone to get sued over something stupid, when a normal landing will do, if you can't land normal you shouldn't be a TI. As for "surge landings" if I understand what you mean by that, I don't find it to as endangering as a hook turn. All instructors should lead by setting a good example! Doing hook turns with tandems is not setting a good example IMHO. ~ you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

true, very true. It could have been both factors or only the hypoxia , no way to know 100 % because all died, but you did bring up a good very point about the the dz being 9K above MSL. I would say hypoxia would have been a factor at play and rule it out,the mind will play tricks... ~ ~ you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

Yes it can, I know when flying an plane over open oceans one can get disorinted and not be able to tell sky from water. A four way went in at the north pole because of the same thing over the ice/snow tricking the mind and looking like there is more altitude then there is. So I would have to say it could/can happen. ~ you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

That's BS and sad to hear, I got to meet him and hang out at an airshow we jumped into, he was a neat guy to meet and talk to. ~ you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

I would say it would depend on how low is low? Did all four jumpers just bust thur 1000ft.? Or are we talking low as in 2.5K? the others are low too.. so I think that it's important to let them know .. So Wave Off first.... then turn and dump.. (quote) We teach AFF students if you see me pull, you better pull! If I pull out of the formation, I'm letting them know. Again how low are we really talking about here? That answer may change the answer I would give. If we just busted 2.5 grand, get hands free, quick wave turn and track and hang it out, the faster the better. Even better don't go to the basement doing four way in the first place.

That is what I'm saying. I think it is risking the student who has no clue the danger as well as the possible legal action towards yourself and the dzo it is well documented thur USPA and other groups that low turns kill and hurt people, so the day you smash someone in you better have a big ass bank account and a good lawer to defend you and you better hope it is not the familys video camera. I'm pretty sure I can prove to a jury and judge that hooking a tandem is NOT an industry standard is thought to be wreckless and unacceptable pratice. ~ you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

I would like to know how many TM's think it is ok to hook turn a tandem? ~ you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

Hooking a tandem in in most conditions is not necessary (quote) There is no reason to ever need to hook a tandem, other then to avoid a midair with another, but seeing how tandems are last to land, pretty slim chances. the passenger should not be put at any unecessary risk(quote) Any Tm's who do a hookturn with a tandem passenger (other then an experianced jumper as passenger) is putting the passenger in unecessary risk for no good reason what so ever and should have all their ratings yanked for good. Those that forget the basics may have to be reminded the hard way. (quote) Even the best in the world have been broken and or dead because it caught up to them or they "missed it by that much" If you have a passenger in your care then you should be thinking of their safety as well as your own ....even if you are swoop happy. (quote) AMEN. Save the swooping for your own risk factor, you don't have a right to endanger the well being or life of another, even more so when the person has no clue the danger you are putting them in by being an asshat for your personal pleasure and thrill ! Again any instructor who would do so needs to have all their ratings pulled for good, for this action shows they have no regard for the proper care of student and are setting a bad example for the rest of the students and low timers at the dz. Got a guy around here that has been do so quite low and dispite complaning to the S&TA & DZO, both keep letting him do it. I'm waiting for the day to come (it will come one day) when we get to clean up a tandem passenger off the ground, you wait till the lawers get a hold a case like that, it is very easy to prove that hook turning a tandem is NOT an industry standard or exceptable and with number of video cameras that the familys bring with them, if it is on thier tape as well, your ass is done for, even if you got a signed waver. There are people out there who will "testify as an expert", even if they lose the case, who here has the deep pockets to fight, as a TM are you willing to risk it in civil court and spend a lot money and force your DZO to have to do the same, just to defend your right to swoop a tandem? If you answer yes, then your fucked in the head! ~ ~ you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

Here's an idea for you, Go to your local high end model/hobbie shop and get you a micro drill bit set and pin vice. These are very in size but all of them are very small much smaller then any you will find at lowes you have to go to a real hobbie shop to find them not wal-mart. Once you have these you can pick your size of bit and twist the bit into the broken off part and pull it out as long as it bites into it just a little. You will have to becareful not to break the bit off inside the part cuz then you may not be able to drill it again. This is what I would do/try if I had the same issue. ~ you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

All I'm saying is if someone is that endangering to others that they need to 'sitting on the sidelines" if they don't care to respect others airspace. If you try to kill me being a dumbass and it come's to throwing blows, oh well then that is how it will be, you don't have a right to take me or another out, I do have the right to stand up aginst someone who shows repeatedly no regard for others safety. I'm talking about someone who has been talked to already and didn't care to listen to the others concerns about their safety, not the one time fuck up. If it takes yanking a handle to do it, then so be it. If more DZO's and S&ta's would do the job in the first place (grounding someone) when it needs to be inforced we would have less wreckless actions of the few who have no respect others safety. Sorry but today we just don't ground people and sometimes some people need to sit on the side lines and to understand that their actions won't be put up with by the others they endanger, instead of being run off the dz down the road to endanger others at another dz! Sorry but I've seen it happen to many times in the last 12 yrs. ~ you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

I hope there are no S&TAs out there that would pass that up and let it go. I already know there are DZOs that would and do. (quote) Shit I know and have known a number of them, who would look the other way," that's so & so and their hot shit big time joe cool" and they let stuff slide. Then again a lot of them I'm talking about well they just happen to be the DZO and the S&TA. I was at a large boogie and one of the "joe cool" pro tour swoopers can over the top of the spectators area and kicked the hat off an old man's head (not an accident) I was very surprised to see that this person was not grounded for the day and or kicked off the dz, the old man was very pissed off and had every right to be. But because of who this "joe cool swooper" was, he was right back up in the air. Remember back in the day when you used to be able to yank a reserve handle and ground someone for being a stupid fuck. You won't see it happen in todays sport! I for one have no problem yanking a handle and I don't care who the hell it is. ~ you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

If I was you I would I would try to all or most of the packjobs done and out of the way and then go to a course. Do you know how to get a hold of Paul Sodaman? I know he is still living around that area but I don't think he is still around skydiving after leaving KSUPC. But he is a master rigger still last I knew and an alumni.

Yea I thought of that but put the info out there anyway. I do miss my blast handle. (quote) I got planty of them you need one? drilled or undrilled? ~ you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

And everybody thought I was kidding......LOL ~ you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

Plastic Martin Baker handles were banned here in the USA back in the late 70's early 80's cuz they would break in two when they got old / cold, the cold was more of an issue if I remember correct. I would not use a plastic martin baker on a rig today, I don't know of any others in use. ~ you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

Yea I was talking to Bill Booth at PIA and he was talking about this, he said he was tinkering around with how to keep jumping in old age when he gets to the age when he has to have a walker or chair to get around, he can just roll out said he got the idea from the pops patch. ~ you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

I had the same thing going on with a trv 525 today, try taking the battery off and see if it resets, it worked for me and now the camera works fine. FWY- when I did it I had the camera powered up in vtr (play back mode) and then pulled the battery off. waited ten seconds and set the camera to off and then put the battery back on, turned it on and it was reset, working fine now. I just tried it after following the link posted to another link and reading a post there.

Thanks- that is one big big boy taking the two biggest jm's we have for a ride. Those two jm's got picked to go cuz we knew if us skinny guys took him we would look like that the whole dive. So I was a little surprised (they were too) he took off like he did, has to be the arch signal he gave him self.

Man your going to need every weight vest on the dz if not the whole state just to keep down with him !!! ps- no jerry I'm NOT saying your a phat-ass! ~ you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

As for illegal drug use in the sport being worse 15 years ago ..........perhaps but I think not . No matter some are trying real hard to make up for any lost time. What I'd prefer to see is a lot less chemical BS from some of the drug fueled pace setters especially at the bigger boogies and a bit more true excellence and airmanship on display . Hearing newbies boast about their previous nights excesses has changed from ...." I finished the bourbon and half that carton and my mull's all gone " to " @$#*$$ (insert drug dealers name ) took twice as many eccies as me and three times the goey and he's been trippin' for a week and HE'S jumping so why can't I?." Such displays look very trashy and watching the very ordinary displays of skydiving and safety awareness by these users makes it awesomely dangerous as well.... (quote) I was wondering where all the dope heads were...... Dude I just don't see the same as you, but that's ok. Yes I still see people who par take in substances after hours those that do "hard drugs" (the kind thay keep you up all night and the next day) are passed out all dam day and don't come too till late afternoon so I don't see them jump much they are there more for the partying then the jumping. However at boogies I still see some of the old gang who still drink and smoke pot durring the day while jumping there aren't many left but their out there. I do see the younger gang (who stay up all night) drag down the newbies, but their young, I was too once, there not doing anything most everyone else did in there younger days, some still do. As for the old farts who party durring the day, these are the guys who 20 yrs ago you whould have seen burning a doobie and doing blow on the way up in the plane, Ive seen some big ass dc-3 partys back in the day. Todays party crowd is much more discreet then in the past and I don't think as many users as back then. I vote for party after the jumping and keep your shit away from me, I don't want to know what you do on your own time, but if your actions away from the jumping is going to endanger me durring jumping (or anyone) we have an issue at that point, I'm pretty good at spotting those who should not be jumping after using. With that said I see alot of people who haven't slept it off for long (drinking all nite) who get up and jump on the first load, would stand a good chance of getting a DUI if they drove to town, but dzo's let them on the plane. Anyway I don't think it's any where near as bad today as it was 20 or 25 yrs ago, maybe it's cuz I'm older now and just when the party get rage'n real good, I'm in bed. Today the only bar I go to is the salad bar.................. ~ you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

Keep jumping and learn to pack for money or gear rental! ~ you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo