dudeman17

Not sure why they would cite a 'no tip policy' as a reason not to accept some of the ransom money. To accept and keep some would be a criminal offense. They could have accepted it and returned it to the FBI (and hoped for a bit of a reward).

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My question was about the money. I mentioned the chutes as example of how the FBI keeps everything it considers to be evidence. It seemed odd that they would give back the money. Normally when someone finds a bunch of cash and turns it in to the authorities, if they can't find the rightful owner they give it back to the finder. But this wasn't an ordinary cash find, it was evidence in the case. You say they gave some of it back, but not all? How much did they give back vs what they kept? I dunno, maybe they figured they'd give him back enough to sell and get the value of his find, as opposed to give him money out of their budget. ??

I said I was sorry.

I have a question about how the FBI handles evidence. For instance, the Amboy chute was supposedly discounted as being Cooper's, yet the FBI still holds on to it. It took Hayden some wrangling to get his other chute back, but Flyjack shows evidence that that was not the one left on the plane, and if so I'm guessing the FBI still has that one (did Cossey ever get the cut-up reserve back?). So how is it that anyone has Cooper 20's? How did any of the Tina Bar money end up back in the public's hands?

Which reminds me - Anyone done any cat chasing lately? I used to throw my cutaway pillow at them in freefall to distract them so I could grab them without getting scratched. Sorry...

About the weather - Any idea what the moon was that night? That would affect his ability to see the ground. Also, and this is very general - Cooper's on the plane at 10 grand. If the weather is stormy/rainy to any degree, the clouds are probably below him. If it's not, then the clouds could be either above or below him. That would depend on how high he opened the parachute, which would depend on what his jump experience was. I plan to post some thoughts about the parachutes, but that'll have to wait till after the weekend.

I'm not inclined to pester the FBI. I wouldn't know who to send it to or where. I think you do, though, it seems you've asked them questions and gotten various responses. If you want to use any of what I wrote to inquire about it, by all means be my guest, and I would be as curious as anyone to hear if you get a response. Cossey would have known all this, though, and I can't imagine he wouldn't check that part out. Maybe that's how he assessed so quickly that it wasn't Cooper's, maybe he saw a riser set-up that was all wrong for a bailout rig. Is there any record of him mentioning that part of it? Also, I think there's a few pictures of the Amboy chute, do any of them show the bottom of the lines? As for the FBI's treatment of evidence, that does make sense to me. If they get that chute as evidence in the case, whether they prove or disprove it's actual relevance doesn't change that. And you may be right, they may not be 100% sure about it. Law enforcement agencies are often arrogant and elitist. While they like to publicly tout their victories, I think that a lot of the time they don't feel like they owe the public any explanations about anything. When they ask the public for help, they're looking for new information/evidence. They're not asking for the public's opinion on the evidence they have.

Has he grounded all of his aircraft?

A thought about the idea of Cooper disconnecting the parachute canopy from the harness/container after he landed. And I'm not saying this to confirm or dispel whether he actually did it, because I don't know. I'm just putting some info here. Might also help to identify the Amboy chute. First, to detail the components of a 'parachute', imagine an open parachute hanging in the sky. At the top, you have the parachute canopy itself, the big round nylon (silk) part (the pilot chute would be part of this). Then, coming down, you have the suspension lines (only a whuffo calls them 'shroud' lines). The lines then gather into four risers (right/left/front/back, those straps that kind of look like seat belts). The risers then attach to the harness/container at the shoulders. Now, it sounds like Cooper was hoping/expecting to get 'sport' gear. The 'back' chutes would have been sport mains, the 'front' chutes would be the reserves that attach to them. (If he had gotten military paratrooper rigs, which were basically the same as sport rigs of those days, they would have most likely been set up for static line deployment, rather than freefall/ripcord, and would have been difficult to use unless he found a place in the stairwell to attach the static line.) But that's not what he got. Instead, the back chutes they gave him were pilot bailout rigs. The front reserves do not attach to them, because the bailout rigs ARE reserves. (Actually, the totality of what they gave him puzzles me, but that would have to be a different post.) On sport mains, the risers attached to the harness/container by way of these thingamajigs called capewells. They come apart simply by pulling open covers, then pulling rings, to separate the risers from the harness. This would have been easy for Cooper to do by hand. (I'm not sure exactly when capewells were developed. Perhaps Mark 377 can tell us. Later on they were used to make emergency procedures safer, as a jumper would 'cutaway' a malfunctioned main in-air before deploying the reserve. This wasn't the practice at the time, but capewells were originally developed so that paratroopers could easily detach from their mains after landing to avoid being drug by winds or being entangled in trees or what-not. I'm all but certain that they did exist in '71.) But, on the pilot bailout rig that Cooper had, the canopy does not separate from the harness so easily. The risers are an integrated part of the harness. The lines attached to the risers by a metal link. In those days I believe that would have been an 'L-bar' type of link. Those are held together by screws, and when undone separate into two parts. I'm sure a rigger would make those screws pretty tight. So for Cooper to detach the canopy from the harness/container, he would have to have either a screwdriver, the right sized coin and a strong wrist, or most likely a knife. So a question would be, how were the bottom of the lines on the Amboy chute? If they were attached to full risers with the top half of the capewell set-up, then not Cooper's. If the lines were on a complete set of L-bars, probably not Cooper's, because I can't imagine him taking the time to reassemble them. If they were on a half set of L-bars, or on a set of cut risers, or the lines themselves were cut, then maybe Cooper's.

No, I'm thinking he could've just taken an airline flight out of SeTac heading south and just watched out the window. Just get a general idea of the terrain and the layout. My thought here is that when all of this happens, Cooper's already gone.

I think you're overthinking a bit of this Robert. This part makes sense. He's got to take off, hijack the plane and make his demands, then land somewhere to collect the money and parachutes. It's where he goes from there... If he says 'go to Mexico' and he doesn't think they'll know when he jumps, that makes for a huge search area. That makes sense. Speculating about the Federales storming the plane when it lands does not make sense, because he clearly has no intention of being on it then regardless of where he had hoped to jump. As for being familiar with the area from the air, it's possible that he made some reconnaissance flights beforehand to to check out the terrain. If you're planning to make a jump, it's certainly prudent to be at least somewhat familiar with your possible landing areas. Doesn't necessarily mean he's a local.

Check your PMs.

Are there any videos posted anywhere from the recent Cooper Con? I'd be interested to hear Mark 377's presentation.

There have been many management/ownership changes since those days, and all the facilities/buildings are different, I wouldn't expect them to have records that far back. It certainly doesn't hurt to ask, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

Was kinda pleasant while it lasted. Old habits die hard, I guess...

Someone pointed this out to me: dbcooperhijack.com You guys have probably already heard of and discounted this guy, but it's an interesting read, and the guy's photo certainly resembles the sketch.

Just to clarify, that wire on the handle doesn't do anything as far as the function of the handle goes. It's not connected to anything mechanical or powered. It's just a seal on the handle. It serves two functions. One, it holds the handle in place so it doesn't move inadvertently. Between removing a door, breaking a flange, and breaking that wire, you've got to intend to move that handle. Second, in the aftermath of an incident, the broken wire tells the investigators that the handle was indeed used.

I'm not an expert, it'll be interesting to see what the ones at Quora come back with, but from what I do know about aircraft, the breakable wire on the handle simply indicates that it's an emergency use handle, not the normal operations handle.

Some questions about Hahneman and his Honduran adventure (just out of curiosity)... Do you know: What kind of parachute he jumped. Where did he get it (did he bring it or did he ask for it). What kind of terrain did he land in. How much money did he get. Why did he turn himself in.

This has been discussed on here before, so if you can find the other thread you'll see more suggestions. But yeah, know what the experience requirements are for your country and how well you meet those. Also, a question is what kind of flying do you normally do, belly or freeflying? Freeflying skills can certainly help in some instances, but it's primarily a belly flying game. Especially if you're normally a freeflyer, this is what I'd suggest: All of the above, plus - It's been said by a lot of old-schoolers, myself included, that a great training ground for AFF is 4-way. Find 3 like-minded people and start a 4-way team. Doesn't matter about actually competing, just practice that discipline of skydiving. You'll get current/proficient at linked exits, piece flying, close-proximity slot flying, and other belly skills that you'll use in AFF, and do so in a relaxed, fun manner that doesn't feel like you're burning a lot of money and jumps on 'training'. Then, when you're closer to taking the course, get coaching in AFF specific skills like botched exits, spin stops, rollovers and what-not. You can do some of that in the tunnel, but the tunnel negates the reality that you sometimes have to chase unruly students across the sky or through fall-rate variations. Good luck.

Haven't had a chance to listen to the Marla Vortex yet. And a quick search shows a fair amount about Marla, but not so much about her uncle other than how he relates as a possible suspect. Where was he from, and was it ever established whether he was/became a jumper? The reason I ask is, and forgive me if I'm wrong, this is a very old memory, but I seem to remember a Lynn Doyle jumping at Southern California drop zones in the early 80's. Don't remember 'Cooper' being part of his name, just Lynn Doyle, everyone just called him 'Doyle'. Would/could this be the same guy?

But the curse word on the book - was it an adjective or a verb?

The weather was kinda crappy and I had a few other things to do, so I didn't go to the dropzone this weekend. That means that by the time I go next weekend, it'll be two weeks between jumps. Man, my feet are gonna be sore from standin' on the ground so long... Anyways, I thought I'd exercise a bit of futility and throw a few cents in. Robert and Shutter, if this thread gets shut down again, I'm gonna blame YOU. The two of you constantly bickering the same crap back and forth in a public forum is embarrassing, and you guys should be ashamed of yourselves. And now you want the thread trashed because you can't have the last word? How selfish and petulant is that? Seriously, you two should just get on the phone and argue about it privately. Better, you should just drop it. Apparently it's old crap and you're not going to agree. Rather than trash this thread, Meso should just ban the two of you. WHICH WOULD BE A SHAME, because the two of you are clearly long time, knowledgable researchers on the case, and your input ON THE CASE is valuable. So PLEASE... Derek's constant spamming is annoying, but at least he's got some humor about it, and it's easy to skim past. (That photo of the Sirhan Band, or whatever it was, was hilarious.) But trying to pick the needles like the latest Vortex podcast or Flyjack's contributions out of the haystack of balderdash between you two, THAT'S what is annoying. Again, gentlemen, PLEASE...

Your profile says you're an AFF-IE with 45 years in the sport. Where do levels 4 & 5 include docks? I've been an AFF-I since '90, and every school I've taught at 4's & 5's are about heading control and turns - docking comes later. Anyways, to my mind, having them use a point on the horizon for heading reference during turns makes them less dependent on us and establishes practices that they'll use on their solos. (Obviously on docking dives they would use us for that reference.) Indeed, on later levels I like to stay above and behind them. (Other than for docking), I don't want them to see me. I tell them that unless I'm giving them hand signals, just ignore me and do their thing. One, this gives them the idea that they don't need us, and two, it gives me an idea how they're gonna act when we're not there. On a side (but related) note, I always find this scenario funny: At the end of those dives I like to show up in front of them and give them a smile and a thumbs up, let them know they're doing a good job. Then I go to their side for the pull. Often they follow me. On the down side, I'm trying to get to their side so that I can watch the pull and assist if needed, and them following me makes that harder. On the UP side, that is usually their first intuitive turn. That is, they're not 'mechanically executing' a turn, they're just flying that way without thinking because that's where their attention is. It makes for a good teaching moment.