dudeman17

Nope. Nope. My comments were not meant to insult you. You insistently maintain a false view of emergency rigs. After unsuccessfully trying several times to correct you, my comments were to state that people who have a more accurate view of them might make decisions about using them that don't make sense to you. Nope. I do not have an opinion one way or the other how the money got rounded. I was referring to the way you handled the conversation. Nope again. I am objectively callin' it like I see it. From someone who until recently had nothing but the highest respect and regard for you, I beseech you to review and reconsider your recent attitude toward everybody. Other than being an ugly old fart, I'm comfortable with what I see there.

Actually, they are intended to be used in the event of an emergency. And they are designed to suit their purpose when they are used. Here you are hypocritically conflating and misrepresenting my statements. Back when it was being discussed, I said that the people procuring the rigs probably didn't know what they were looking for and just got what they could get their hands on. My more recent statements were a hypothetical that a lot of laymen would understand that there are differences, and if you put the two in front of them, they could probably guess which is which. This part you have correct. Here you are intentionally misrepresenting with intent to discredit. I did not say 'any idiot', I said 'many people'. Hypocrite. I think just recently you have Mike Davis and me... That would actually lean towards indicating the opposite. And you have gotten some feedback. You just reject it because it apparently doesn't conform to your 'confirmation bias'. Perhaps someone who apparently spends most of their life in front of a computer screen just can't grasp the mentality of people who go outside and do risky adventurous things. Sowwy I huwt youw feewings; yes you are ignorant on parachutes and the type of people who do such things; no I wasn't because that's not what I said; no I'm not; ya kinda got me there, minor detail corrected; no, I commented on that; and yes I did, several times. Because that's what they gave him. Black Death, Maynard - that's why. ----------------- Sir, you are not orders of magnitude more intelligent than everyone else. You do not have the market cornered on logic and reason. But your arrogance is astounding. You should really consider you recent behavior, going back at least to your fairly recent arguments about how the money got rounded, and everything since. It is really disappointing. I don't want to say that you're losing your credibility, but you seem to be intentionally wadding it up and throwing it away.

Yeah. 50 pounds would have some effect, but not prohibitive. What did Cooper weigh, somewhere like 170-175 or so? So how many 220 pound pilots or crewmen might wear such a rig?

And what is your parachuting experience sir? Thumbing through a book - a book I referred you to - , finding outlier circumstances and using them to try to discredit the predominant circumstances? Umm, no. I explained the fallacies in your generalizing "bailout rig" - and I am not wrong. Some of the canopies that might have been in those rigs are steerable. Indeed, I believe the packing card we have a photo of from one of Hayden's rigs lists the canopy as a 26' conical manufactured in 1957. I have landed a 26' conical manufactured in 1956 and it was steerable. I am not wrong in that the mains of that era did not have a whole lot better performance than the reserves. I have jumped most if not all of them - 35' T-10's, 28' flat circulars, Para Commanders, Piglets, 26' conical reserve, 24' whatever-it-was reserve with 4-line release, and whatever else that I can't remember. What have you jumped? Yes, the military did have freefall rigs, but the majority of military parachuting in that day was static-line paratroopers. Ironically, if Cooper was aware of or a participant in the military freefall operations you cite, then he was far more knowledgeable a parachutist than any of you want to give him credit for. I made my first 40 or so jumps on the exact type of gear that Cooper was requesting. I am thoroughly familiar with the type of bailout rigs he received. I have known countless pilots who wore them. I have put them on countless people, including my own mom, taking observer rides and briefed them on their use. And you? You seem to want to paint observer rigs as some sort of medieval torture device that if the opening doesn't kill you, the landing surely will, and something that only an uninformed moron would jump. Not so. God only knows how many jumpers, pilots, crewmen... have landed those things and come out of it unscathed. I used to know a guy who jumped one of those reserves as a main because it was cheap and he liked to pull really low. I stand behind all the statements I have made about gear as not wrong. The only thing I got wrong was I overlooked the military's preponderance to triple document everything, thus their mains having packing cards. And I accurately described the difference in why those cards are there vs reserve packing cards. Indeed, many sport jumpers of that day used military surplus gear. The packing card pockets on their rigs would be empty. I did, repeatedly, answer your question. And the answer is the variable I described. I don't know who Mike Davis is, apparently an experienced jumper. Ryan says that he said he would jump it, and you dismissed it out of hand, as though you know better than the man himself what he would do. I also said that if I was in Cooper's position on the way to Reno, I would jump it too. I would be easy to take umbrage at that and tell you to take a flying flip at a rolling doughnut yourself, But I'm really just kind of befuddled. What the hell happened to you? I've been reading your posts for a long time, and I've had nothing but respect for you. I think everyone here regards you as a thorough, detailed researcher. But you used to be objective, and interested in truth. But now, you'e caustic, stubborn, and quite frankly, an asshole. You have strong confirmation bias, you are at times dishonest, you personally attack and try to discredit people you disagree with, and you change your position mid-argument just to disagree. All things that you have accused others of. That makes you a hypocrite. Seriously, what happened to you? Maybe you just need to step away from the keyboard for a moment, go outside, get some fresh air, exercise, and circulation.

Yes, of course. But that was not the majority. And they still are. Any part of a parachute component that will be used in an emergency use chute has to be tested to FAA TSO standards. This has been addressed. If you don't want to accept the answer, then don't. But one thing you keep doing is looking at the rig as a whole, and not separating the container from the various canopies that might be in it. My guess is the first. But ultimately we don't know. Bullshit. I answered that question each time you asked it. If you want to reject my answer, that's your prerogative. But to say that I refused to answer and twisted it, that is you flat out lying. Hypocrite. It seems to me that you have lost your mind. You've changed recently. Has someone hacked your account? You are smarter than this.

Go on Facebook to the 'old school skydivers' page. You might be able to find an old rigger there who could detail containers of that era for you. Or call Skydive Kapowsin and ask for Geoff Farrington. He owns the place and is such a rigger.

Absolutely not. I am responding to it accurately and appropriately.

Balderdash. Not one word of what I wrote fits that description. I have had nothing but respect for you. You are clearly a dedicated and detailed researcher. But lately you seem to be stubborn and suffering from oppositional disorder. Anything anyone says that you don't agree with is either nonsense or a lie. I call bullshit. That's your call. But I've asked a couple questions that you haven't answered. And I'd still like to know whose that other guitar was.

I don't think anything he had, even the money, would weigh enough to be an issue. Of more concern would be how it is tied to him and how that might affect his exit and freefall aerodynamics. It would want to be centered, securely and tightly tied so as not to move around, and reasonably symmetrical. It would certainly help if he had freefall experience, but regardless of his stability, if he pulls he most likely gets open.

A Para Commander is a type of main canopy, that would go into any main container that it would fit in.

What assumptions do I have that are false? So do you. Everybody on this case has been saying the same things over and over for over a half a century. "Bailout rig" per se refers to the container. Bailout rigs use the same reserve type canopies that were in reserve containers, both sport and military. Some of those canopies were steerable, some not. A bailout rig might well contain a steerable reserve. The ones Cooper got happened to have non steerable ones, okay, but I don't think Cooper could have known which he had until he got under it. I would have no reason to. Indeed I have taken my sport rig or a base rig with me when flying with people. But I have used a few round reserves, the same type that may well have been in a bailout rig. Reserve canopies, which bailout rigs use, are designed to open quickly because you might be low. That won't hurt you. Because they are smaller canopies, so that they will pack smaller. They are not designed to hurt you. I think many whuffos would understand them better than you do. Clearly, and it's starting to seem by insistence. Why do you think that? Again, I don't think he wanted to waste more time. Did he know it was going to take an hour and a half to get going? Wasn't he already complaining about time? Didn't he want to 'get the show on the road'? But I did. I think you would get different answers from different jumpers. More conservative ones wouldn't. Ballsier ones would. Was Cooper ballsy? Considering that he was hijacking a jetliner and robbing a bank, I'm guessing he was. I think Cooper knew [bailout] rigs better than you do. I think he felt competent enough to deal with it. By the way it seemingly turned out, apparently he was right. Hayden was a pilot. Pilots are weird people. Everybody in a boat is required to have a life preserver. Most pilots want nothing to do with parachutes. Maybe it's just me, but I'm guessing most people can swim better on their own than they could land. I've got this comical vision in my head of a pilot in freefall strapped to a seat, with a broken stick in their hand swearing he can land it, before he would jump. I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound snide, I just don't know how more simply I could put it.

This may be a bit of an exaggeration, but you seem to think that Cooper likely had no clue whatsoever about bailout rigs. What I meant by that statement is that I disagree. Most whuffos running around do understand that there are parachutes, and different ones for different purposes. I would bet that if you put an intentional freefall rig and a bailout rig in front of them, many people with no more than a layman's understanding would be able to guess which one is which. Cooper had at least some experience, and wherever he got that he would most likely have encountered bailout rigs as well. His pilots and/or other crewmen would likely have had them. I think it would have been readily apparent to him what they were. You also seem to think that his experience was most likely military. Maybe so, but most military jumping of that era was static line paratroopers. If that was Cooper, I would expect him to address that in his request. I would expect him to want a freefall rig, but who knows, maybe he thought he'd attach the static line to the stairs or something. Did he know when they gave him the rigs that it would be an hour and a half before they took off? Or was that due to the fueling issues? Further adding to his time urgency issues? Again, mains in those days did not have a whole lot more flight performance than reserves. But ultimately, you would likely get different answers from different jumpers. Most jumpers I've known, I don't think they'd commit a hijacking (or rob a bank) in the first place. A bailout rig is a reserve, all but assuredly you get an open canopy. Ok, so what? Only because it's a smaller canopy. At Cooper's weight, not that big of a deal. In those days, whatever training he did have, they trained PLF's to a great degree, so he would be prepared for that. Again, many reserves were steerable. My first reserve ride, the canopy was manufactured in 1956 and it was steerable. And I don't think he would have known whether it was or not before he got under it. Maybe. Not necessarily. Does Andrade's research include rate of injury? So? As long as the terrain was decent, which might have been somewhat under his control. ----------------- I don't know what else to say about all this. You can believe me or not.

The existence of parachutes is not a big mystery. I think most people in civilized society are aware that they exist, for sport, military, and emergency uses. Whatever experience he has increases that knowledge. But that's kind of the point - he didn't have a choice, that's what he was given. I think the choice he was making was 'get the show on the road' over increase his chances of getting arrested or killed by waiting for more.

Not necessarily. In those days the round mains did not have all that much speed/maneuverability. Some reserves were steerable, and I'm not sure he would be able to tell if it was until he got under it. A primary difference would be that the reserve is likely a bit smaller canopy, but at Cooper's weight that may not make a huge difference. Again, those rigs are not designed to maim or kill you, they're designed to save you.

Right. The ultimate answer can not be definitively known, we are both claiming 'likely', we are just disagreeing on which way the likelihood leans. Yes. What evidence indicates that? That is not an apt comparison. Those harnesses are outliers, they do not have a built on container. They are simply a harness with the rings. That would make them less cumbersome for the crewman to move about and do his duties. In the event of an emergency, he already has the harness on, he just needs to clip on the container/canopy. If I say they don't exist, you'll probably find one, but I can't imagine one of those having the clips on the back. That would require someone else to put it on you, and I think the idea is to be self-sufficient. But that's not what Cooper had. He had self-contained backpack harness/containers. And I say he likely would, along with it being a smaller container and also no capewells.

Unlike the rest of you, I am not trying to solve this case. I do like absolutes though, they separate speculation from reasonable assumptions. I have to disagree with your conclusion. I think you're putting too much importance on the cards.* The biggest indicator is the D-rings or lack thereof. The D-rings are installed in the harness at manufacturing. It's not like someone would 'forget to include them'. If Cooper has any experience and knows gear at all, he most likely knows the difference between mains and emergency (bailout) rigs. He knows enough to ask for fronts and backs, and he knows how to put them on. And when he gets them he's not scratching his head trying to figure out how they attach, he knows that there are no D-rings. So he most likely knows that he does not have mains. Therefore they must be bailouts. There really isn't a third option. I think he doesn't ask for more for the same reason he doesn't ask for a proper backpack. He doesn't want to waste any more time. He's going to make do with what he has and "get the show on the road". *Packing cards - They are on reserves and bailout rigs for reasons previously described. The reason the military puts them on mains is so they can tell which loft and what packer handled them. If there is an issue in the field, they can backtrack where they came from. If a loft needs to issue a service bulletin or airworthiness directive, the people in the field can determine whether they have affected gear.

What do we know?... He asks for two parachutes, clarifies two backs and two fronts. He has at least a basic idea how they are. Does he use simplistic terms because that's all he knows? Because that's what he figures the people he's asking will know? Because he's trying to obfuscate a deeper knowledge? All are possible, none can be confirmed. (Again, if he's an experienced sport jumper and comes off like one, that seriously narrows the suspect pool he's trying to get lost in.) When the rigs are delivered, the lack of D-rings would indicate that they are not mains. Does he know about the cards, or does he just find them? Cannot be known. He blows off the directions and seems to know how to put them on. Does that indicate paratroop training? Experienced jumper? Aircrew training? He hung out at a dz the week before and observed? Cannot be known. My logic indicates there is no way to know what his experience is beyond a basic understanding. Am I missing something?

Not necessarily. Again, did he check the cards knowingly, or did he just come across them as he looked over what they gave him? If he did know gear, there are other differences. Mains use bigger canopies than bailout rigs, so they are thicker, bulkier, and heavier. Other than the D-rings, there is other hardware on mains that are not on bailouts. That picture you posted, either the picture or the rig in it is upside down, but that hardware seen on the lower right is a capewell, the method to release the canopy from the harness, there would be one of those on each shoulder. Yes on mains, not on bailouts. I think those came into use in the early 60's, so if his experience is earlier than that, maybe or maybe not he is familiar with them. If he is of military experience, he should know that most military mains would be set up for static line, he did not specify between that or freefall in his request. On freefall mains, the ripcord is usually on the right, on bailouts the left. I don't think it can be definitively determined what his experience was.

What is the timeline on this? When (what year) was Gunther contacted by 'Cooper'? According to Clara, when did Cooper die?

Apparently my civilian side was overriding. I learned something and I stand corrected. You did. It occurred to me that an instructor I used to work with was a military rigger in the 80's and 90's, so I asked him about it. The military documents, double documents, and over-documents everything they do. Not only do they keep log books in their lofts of everything they do, including main pack jobs, as I surmised the other day, but indeed military mains do have packing cards.

No. Not mains. For both military and civilian, reserves and bailout rigs, emergency use chutes, have cards. I have never seen nor heard of a main having a card. The card documents what the canopy is, and it's history - when it was used, any repairs or alterations, and when it was inspected and repacked so the user can determine if the current pack job is 'in date'. Like Divalent said, mains are just used too much to try to keep up with all that on paperwork. And it's not necessary. The owner will generally have an idea how many jumps are on the canopy, but that can pretty much be estimated by an inspection. Occasionally they need a repair, and one might replace the pilot chute or the lines when necessary, like getting new tires on your car, but the need for that can be determined simply by inspection.

What he said ^^. Thems is the regs. In Cooper's day I think it was rare for someone other than the jumper to pack their main, other than for students. These days it's common to have packers on the dz to pack your main, It's kind of a chore, many people prefer to pay to have it done. But no, mains don't have cards. In the military, if a team of 'riggers' pack a bunch of paratroop rigs, I'm guessing they keep logbooks of who packs what (even mains) in case there's an incident.

Yes. I don't think we can determine what he knew. If he knows gear and knows those are bailout rigs, he might be checking the cards to determine what kind and size of canopies are inside. If he doesn't know gear, he might just be checking them over and come across the cards.

My experience is civilian, but there is a lot of crossover, a lot of military jumpers also sport jump and I have known many of them over the years. When I learned in '79, many of my instructors were from the military. Military courses can be exceedingly detailed, a lot of their First Jump Courses in that day lasted a week (before the first jump), and the students would definitely know 'mains' and 'reserves', and probably the make and model of the gear they were jumping, and maybe the serial numbers of their particular rig. Yeah, that last part was kind of an exaggerated joke, but the point is valid. I don't think experienced jumpers from either genre would commonly use 'front and back' over 'main and reserve' amongst each other. They might use 'front mount reserve' to differentiate from piggyback gear when those were coming out. And bailout rigs might be front, chest, seat, or back to differentiate between the types of those, none of which are mains. Bailout rigs do not have secondary reserves. Bailout rigs are reserves for the original intent of landing with the plane. I could go into more detail, but who gives a fuck, none of it sticks anyways. I don't think a conclusion can be made what Cooper's experience was based on the terminology he used. I think it's possible he was using generic terms based on who he was talking to, rather than where he came from. He was describing what he wanted to people who wouldn't know much about them. Indeed, if Cooper was an experienced sport jumper, he may have used generic terms in order to hide that fact, so as not to narrow down the suspect pool. Getting bailout rigs would not necessarily be a deal-killing death sentence. Those things are designed to save lives, and they do. Andrade's research into WW2 bailouts confirms this. And some of them are steerable. ----------------- I don't make posts with the intent of backing up some people or slamming others. I just try to clarify parachuting logistics based on decades of experience, as current as yesterday. Some time ago I wrote a post about camaraderie based on shared interest. The way some of you can bitch and snipe at each other, I'm starting to think that we owe Blevins an apology.

For that type of gear, separated mains and reserves, no the mains would not have a card. Sport gear today, they all do have cards because the mains and reserves are part of the same rig, the cards are pertinent to the reserves. I don't think it can be known whether he knew the difference or not, because we don't know his experience, how much he knew. He did seem to know something about them, he said he didn't need the instructions and appeared to know how to put it on. That would lean towards him knowing. Why didn't he ask for more? Hadn't he already complained about time, wanted to 'get the show on the road'? So does he want to wait an hour or two (?) while they looked for more? Or just make do with what he's got. Since he can't be planning on landing in a specific field, I don't think so. I'd rather not, but as opposed to spending significant time in prison or being killed in a raid, I probably would.