dudeman17

Not sure who's displaying less maturity right now - Derek or Eric.

That's interesting. Was that pilot listening for the beeper, or did he just happen to hear it. Either way, that they thought it important might suggest a McChord rig with a beeper, or possibly one put in with the money. Also, did you mention the aluminum plant just as a matter of location? A transmitted beeper signal wouldn't be like a radar ping off of aluminum.

Titan had dinosaurs?

General info... Repacks these days are usually about $60-$80, but I bet that some older rigger would do it for free just to get a chance to check it out himself. Try Skydive Kapowsin. Unless R99 knows differently about specific older military gear, AAD's on rigs are in addition to, not instead of, manual ripcords. I've said it before and I'll say it again - A lot of these details about old rigs that you're hashing over could be cleared up by asking in the Gear and Rigging section. --- So, Robert, did you talk to the Sky Sports guy?

Not necessarily. Thinking it through theoretically, if all of R99's assertions are correct and Cooper jumps, flails uncontrollably, loses his wits and is unable to do anything, that AAD may be what saves him. However, like he said, military AAD's open high - he says 14k, I've heard of some that fire at 10k, so if he exits at or below 10k, not sure how that would work. If that door is floating up and down, causing pressure fluctuations, and the AAD fires before he leaves the plane, that would be a problem. Obviously that didn't happen, but... Shrug...

Well, that's why I said I wasn't sure, I know the military has their own systems. BUT What you're describing was probably most likely found on ejection systems for high speed fighters. They have a lot of different ways to stage and deploy parachutes for high speed ejections, a lot of which would be to slow the pilot down and get him to a lower altitude before deploying the final canopy. I think it might be unlikely to find an AAD on a standard bailout rig for a bomber crew, but even bailing out of a bomber at high altitude could result in hypoxia issues, so maybe they did. I dunno, like I said, this would be a good question to post in the Gear and Rigging section.

That might be a good question for the Gear and Rigging thread. There're some very knowledgable riggers there, like JerryBaumchen and RiggerLee. My guess is that I'm not sure but seriously doubt it. Early AAD's were designed for front reserves. Paratrooper mains were static line. Bailout rigs wouldn't have them. Emergency bailouts are a seat-of-your-pants affair. You wouldn't know beforehand where you're going to be or the elevation of the ground you're over. Also, early AAD's were kind of iffy, they had a possibility of mis-firing when they weren't supposed to. The possibility of that happening in the plane would be extremely hazardous. Early sport jumpers did not like them, to the point of not wanting to jump with people who had them. They were used primarily on students. That depends. If they sent paratrooper rigs, then they would likely have been static line and useless to Cooper. If they sent bailout rigs, then you'd be right.

...that you know what you're talking about or are willing to learn.

Rare footage of Cooper, under the pseudonym Hicks, doing just that... Pt 1: Pt 2: Pt 3:

Sure, mains do occasionally malfunction. I had my first at about 50 jumps, a partial inversion on a Para-Commander, and I've had a fair handful of them over the years. But his chances of having one on a round reserve packed by a rigger are extremely slim. This is just not accurate. First, for an experienced jumper, the first point of reference is the direction of the relative wind. And whether he's experienced or not, it's not like he's in a total black void. In rainy, drizzly, total overcast conditions, the clouds are usually fairly low. At 10 grand, Cooper is most likely above all that and under clear skies. There would be ambient light. Not sure how much, I've asked this before and got no answer, but does anyone know what the moon was that night? But whatever the moon, there would be stars out. All that light would reflect off the top of the clouds, and that would be as or more visible than dark ground terrain on a clear night. Been there, seen that. Consider modern tandem instructors (I am one). We jump with full sized people attached to us. Sure, we teach them to give us a decent body position on exit, but sometimes they are, shall we say, somewhat uncooperative. That doesn't normally kill us. As I stated before, a tumbling deployment would be unlikely to kill him. In those days, much if not most or all civilian sport gear was in fact military surplus. Parachute containers are fairly simple devices and they all work off the same principles. So while there are differences, they are all fairly similar. As for harnesses, the hunan body is what it is. They too are all pretty much the same. There're a couple leg straps, you put your arms through the main lift webs, and there's a chest strap and sometimes a belly band. Even with no experience, it wouldn't be hard to figure it out. Even today, civilian sport and military rigs are pretty much the same, usually manufactured by the same companies. And most military jump schools use civilian contractor instructors.

On whether Cooper survived the jump... On any jump made, the odds are against that the person goes in. But occasionally they do anyway, so I suppose anything is possible. But we don't know how Cooper fared, so we look at the situation and consider what is likely to have happened. Robert99 posted some scenarios that I think are unlikely. R99, I'm not bagging on you, I don't know you personally, I'm just giving an objective take on your suggestions. Not necessarily. Cooper was a smart guy, I would guess that whatever he tied to himself, he tied tightly and securely. With the back bailout rig and the money tied to his front, that wouldn't have been too much different than the typical sport rig of the day, with a back main and front-mount reserve. Freefall stability is kind of like learning to ride a bicycle, in that there is a subtle balance point to it. At first it can be hard to control, but once it 'clicks', it's really not hard. And like everything, some people take to it quicker than others. If he had prior freefall experience, the exit would not have been hard. And if he didn't, and he did tumble, again, he's a ballsy guy, I'm guessing he would keeps his wits about him enough to pull. Not at all. Many people have deployed while tumbling and gotten open just fine. That spring-loaded pilot chute comes off your back quickly and takes the canopy with it. If you're gonna get tangled up in anything, it's most likely going to be the bottom part of the lines. And when the canopy opens, it's gonna flick you out of that like an errant yo-yo. You may end up with line burns, but you're most likely going to have an open canopy. Parachute malfunctions are pretty rare. And of the malfunctions that do happen, total pack closures are very rare, and so are high speed streamers. Most malfunctions that do occur on rounds are slow speed, like line-overs or partial inversions. Maybe a bit higher rate of descent and less control than you might otherwise have, but usually survivable. I think it's highly probable that he survived the jump. The concern I have, as I stated before, is whether he was injured on landing and able to hike out.

First off, when you go to a new dz, talk to the instructors there about their protocols so that you'll be on their page. There is validity in everything that's been said, but here's another factor that hasn't been mentioned. We tell students doing their early solos to track perpendicular to jumprun in part because they may be spending a fair part of their jump practicing their track, and may cover some significant distance. But on a breakoff from a group jump, it's 180 from the centerpoint so that you'll get separation from the other jumpers. In that scenario, the tracking would be shorter and cover less distance.

On Cooper's chances of surviving the jump, here's a logistical opinion from a highly experienced jumper. Parachutes are exceedingly simple devices. Far less complex than the brakes on your car. Cooper is clearly a ballsy guy. Even if he had no jump experience at all, exiting the plane and pulling a ripcord would seem to be within his capabilities. I think the odds are overwhelmingly in his favor that he ends up under an open canopy. However... Those bailout rigs are reserve parachutes. Even for those days, they were extremely low performance canopies. At best, they have very sluggish steering, and very low forward speed to work with. Some of them have no steerability or forward drive at all, and some evidence suggests that that was indeed the type that Cooper had. That means that he had very little if any control over exactly where he lands. If he landed in a flat open field, he's probably good to go. However, if he landed in trees, rocks, or a hillside, that increases the chances that he gets injured on landing, and is possibly unable to hike out. That would be a problem.

However it was then, for reference, here is how it is now. The FAA has various oxygen requirements that are based on a combination of altitude and exposure time. Based on those factors, oxygen must be: Available to the pilot, available to the passengers, required for the pilot, required for the passengers. The first altitude threshold for all of that is 14,000 ft MSL (above sea level). That one page references jump altitudes at Elsinore. Typical sport jump altitude is 12,500 ft. That's pretty standard worldwide. However, those altitudes are AGL (above ground level). Elsinore has a field elevation of 1,253, so 12,500 AGL is just under 14,000 MSL. The exposure time is usually pretty short. No oxygen is required, and for most people no onset of hypoxia is felt. One should be able to hang out at 10,000 AGL with no problems.

That's balderdash, Robert. Those people have been heckling you for a long time. You should be used to it by now. Either laugh them off or stop reading them. There are people here who read your posts objectively. Don't throw attitude at us because of those yokels. You said you had a line on that guy and that you were going to talk to him. That's interesting. You said you'd report what he had to say. Please do.

Speaking objectively, you cannot say that you thoroughly vetted the story without having gone to the source. You absolutely should have contacted Jarvis. ----- So, what did the guy from Sky Sports say?

What do you know of Bear, and how? PM me if you prefer.

Sweet, sweet lady, much sadness...

According to that info, it sounds like Emrick only supplied one of the front-mounts, the other coming from a Renton Aviation. But to the question, that doesn't sound reasonable to me at all. Emrick was a skydiver (was he an instructor?) and the drop zone owner. He set up the dz and owned all the student gear. He would absolutely know the difference between all the rigs and training aids. For him to say he didn't realize it at the time sounds like a cover-yer-ass statement. Pure speculation here... I speculated earlier that perhaps the dummy reserve was given to Cooper to discourage him from making Tina jump. But Emrick probably didn't know anything about that situation at the time. Same for the later notion of Cooper becoming something of a folk hero. Emrick is asked for a chute to give to a hijacker in an era when there were a fair amount of politically motivated hijackings done by terrorist types. Perhaps he gives that dummy reserve because it's the cheapest, most disposable thing he's got, and who gives a crap if it doesn't work and the guy goes in.

Parachutes... Robert, if you've got someone looking into the Sky Sports angle, it would be interesting if he can figure how they ended up with that dummy training reserve. Typically there are a few places you'd find parachutes at a drop zone. One, in the rigging loft, where you'd find reserves that are due for repacks, or other gear in need of maintenance. The rigger might keep his personal gear there. Two, if there are regular instructors, there might be a 'locker' type area where they keep their personal gear; otherwise they would just take their gear home with them. If there is a separate area where the pilots' stuff is kept, that might be where you'd find the bailout rigs. Jump pilots in smaller planes are required to wear them, the pilots in bigger planes don't need to wear them, but bailout rigs are kept on board and available to the pilots. Those rigs might also be kept in the loft. The main place you'd find gear, though, would be where they keep the student gear. The drop zone keeps and supplies the gear for student jumpers. If the drop zone was asked for gear for a hijacking, what would make sense to me would be that they would give student gear. It's nobody's personal gear and in those days would have been relatively cheap. That dummy reserve should be nowhere near any of those places. That should be kept in the classroom or training area. Normally there's a hanging harness somewhere where the students practice their emergency procedures, and that's where that dummy reserve would be used. There should be no way that that training aid could get mixed up with actual gear. Could you imagine if that thing got put on a student for an actual jump? I have a thought that that dummy reserve might have been given on purpose. There's the theory that Cooper asked for two complete rigs so that they would give him good ones (not sabotaged) for fear that he might make Tina jump with him. Perhaps they gave him the dummy reserve to discourage that. The McChord military rigs - I had not heard that Cooper had requested gear from them, but I had heard that he had rejected the idea. What makes sense to me is that any military/paratrooper gear would indeed be set up for static line, which would be useless to him. He certainly would not have requested static line gear, but he would have rejected it. Perhaps McChord then sent bailout rigs, because they're ripcord rigs. The backpack gear. It's curious to me that he didn't get any sport mains, but that he got bailout rigs. Now, whuffos don't know the difference in gear, so it's certainly feasible for the FBI guy to just go to the local Flight Service and ask about chutes, somebody there knows Hayden and gets them from him. But it is curious that it doesn't occur to Hayden or the Flight Service guy that 'that''s probably not what he's looking for'. But if any backpacks come from Cossey or the drop zone, they certainly would know the difference, that the bailout rigs aren't suitable for an intentional jump, and not compatible with the front reserves. Also, I can't imagine that if the drop zone is asked for just the front reserves, they wouldn't ask where the mains are coming from. I suppose the same thought is possible here, that they give him totally inappropriate gear so that he doesn't make Tina jump. Nobody else seems to give any credence to Flyjack's theory about both of Hayden's chutes being accounted for, but I do. Pack-and-data cards are federal documents. They stay with the gear. They include the make, model, date-of-manufacture and serial number of the parachute inside. If the numbers don't match between the rig left on the plane and the one Hayden got back, then they're not the same rig. Also, the way that the FBI deals with 'evidence' (just consider the Amboy chute), I can't imagine that they would give back the rig that was left on the plane. I would imagine they still have that.

There, fixed that part for you. The rest of it was good...

You keep mentioning the confidentiality agreement, and say that it will be lifted once the movie starts production. I would think that they would want that in place until the movie is released. ??

Which is pretty much exactly what I said... I absolutely agree with... and My 'but' was in reference to experienced jumpers who flare correctly dealing with excessive forward speed.

Not to hijack the thread, but I'm curious about your concerns here. I, too, think that plfs are under taught/practiced/utilized these days. But it can be different between students and experienced jumpers. As an instructor, I'm always on the lookout for students who lift their legs to slide in a landing. I think a lot of them do that because they did it on a tandem, but if they do that and mis-time their flare, they could injure themselves. But for an experienced jumper who times their flare correctly, the problem may be different. Originally, the plf was to absorb the harder landings of older (round) parachutes. But with modern canopies, the problem isn't a hard landing, but faster forward speed. For that, the slide-in may well be the better option.

Well you know the notes and the sequences better than I do, I'm just saying that his references to "two" rigs comprising of "four" chutes may not be as inconsistent as they seem.