RhondaLea

Seems to me that if you're really going to do this, you'll have to get a new user ID for the duration. Also, even though your new avatar isn't perverted, it is perverse. Same root, so you need to define your terms or get a totally innocuous avatar. If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

USPA did some research a few years ago...the in-and-out-of-sport average is 7 years. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Did anyone give them input on the jump run and exit point that were used so that they could precisely determine the most likely place to start looking? Okay, I'm not done, after all. WTF?! Do you have any idea what goes on at a dropzone after an incident? Yeah, it's true, the jumpers keep jumping, but unless they're witnesses, there's nothing else for them to do, unless they go home. The police treat every incident as a potential homicide. It's standard practice. They collect all relevant information from everyone who has any involvement and they interview everyone who saw anything at all. (And believe me, I've never known a skydiver who could keep his/her mouth shut even if what s/he saw was no more than a flash from the corner of his/her eye.) The pilot is never left out of this process, trust me. It ain't rocket science, but being coherent in this post is a real challenge, because I'm so boggled by the assumptions you seem to be making in your efforts to crucify more than 300 people for doing something entirely normal and expected under all the circumstances previously outlined. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Better to wonder if there's any truth to the story. Snopes. That may be, but I think superglue is hard to fake. http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/5235856/detail.html Edited to add all the other links: http://news.google.com/news?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-30,GGLG:en&ncl=http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/5235856/detail.html&hl=en&filter=0 If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Once. For the length of time it took me to watch a really crummy English video on canopy control. I was just off student status (literally; it was my first jump after graduation), and I went to a new dz. Eddie Carroll, being unable to get anyone at my old dz on the phone, decided I should be on radio. I figured that Eddie was infinitely wise, so I listened to the ground instructor when he told me to turn after I was already on final and aimed for the peas. The last thing I heard from him was "oh shit, oh shit." (The sun was in his eyes, and he thought I was already flying in the direction he turned me into.) Thereafter, I had the choice of power lines, "New Jersey jungle" (with lots of stickers and other things) or trying to make it over the building next to the hangar so I could land in the back yard. I chose the latter, which scared the shit out of everyone. They were so relieved I was okay that they immediately started screaming at me. Eddie and I then had a yelling match in the hangar for the entertainment of everyone watching. I bought Eddie a case of beer for being such a nice guy about the whole thing. I'm sure he'd say it served it's purpose. But he didn't put the radio on me for my next jump. rl Edited to add: There are going to be some new folks who will think--because of the new prevailing attitudes in the sport--that this wasn't my fault because I was just doing what I was told by an instructor. The rest of you are going to know that I was a complete idiot for doing what I should have known was exactly the wrong thing to do (and did know, even as I proceeded to follow the instructions I received), and you are absolutely correct. It was my fault, and my fault alone, and I richly deserved the verbal beating I received. If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

You got grounded for that?! Weird. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Are you back yet, you abandoner of post whores, you?! rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Damn! I should've thought of that. Good catch, Wendy. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Getting funky with the dropzone (or any other place) 5 or 6 times a day IMO takes an activity beyond the "keeping on an even keel" thing. On one hand, I respect the dedication and apparently sincerity. On the other hand, it seems very cultish and weird to me. A few years back I worked with a bunch of really nice guys who were devout skydivers. They would disappear for short periods throughout the day to go jump. (BTW, this was well before 9/11.) Even though I liked them as co-workers and as people, I always felt a little uncomfortable with all the jumping because it seemed fanatical to me and I'm generally not very fond of being around fanatics of any stripe. Jumping once on Sunday is enough for anyone. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Darling, darling, darling, I will have to teach you the art of eating oysters. I'm very fond of oysters, although I prefer "angels on horseback" (oysters wrapped in bacon and broiled) or oyster stew. The reason oysters are considered an aphrodisiac is that they contain a lot of zinc, a mineral that men need for the production of testosterone, seminal fluid and sperm. Zinc deficiency is one of the leading causes of erectile dysfunction. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Yeah...it is. Because some people seem to have an agenda that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Several agendas, actually, none of which seem to have anything at all to do with the man who died. I'll tell you what, in a situation where I could do something, I'd do it. If it meant slogging through a swamp in the middle of the night, or sitting by a dead body until someone with a gurney came along, or whatever else I was called on to do, I wouldn't hesitate. (In the situation where I was actually called on to do something, I did my job as to the situation, and then I went back to the job I was doing before the fatality, as did everyone else who was involved.) But to ask anyone to bow to someone else's idea of propriety in order to make a good impression on the public or just because it fulfills some notion of how things should be... I give up. This has become a stupid argument, and I can only hope that none of those people who are arguing the other side ever own or manage a dropzone. I have a feeling, however, that those people who are arguing the other side don't speak on behalf of the family of the man who died. I think it would be interesting to know what they really think about it all, not what some of you think they're thinking. It seems to me that a man who chose to go on with his life--even in the face of the terrible hand he'd been dealt--would be surrounded by some very pragmatic family members who would be more inclined to buy into the "life goes on" idea than some contrived display of grief. After all, someone had to bring him to the airport to make the jump. rl Edited to add: I didn't see the two posts preceding mine when I made this. Nonetheless, I'm going to let it stand, but hereafter, as I said, I give up. If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

He needs to do that right away. Some conditions affect more than just the sex drive. If this is a physical problem, he needs to get it checked out soonest. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

We agree on a lot of things. But on one subject, I was just being pissy about the delivery, and I took what you were saying out of context. This is certainly not on-topic for this thread, but you deserve an apology from me, and this is it. I'm sorry. Actually, I'm a royal pain in the ass. Ask anyone with whom I don't agree and even some of those with whom I do. Amen. Amen twice.

Says you. What you fail to see is that most skydiving accidents analogize to "hostile fire" not to "anything other than." There aren't that many fatalities that arise from causes that are not "operator error." Some, but not many. Packers don't generally "pack serious mals" and most packing-induced malfunctions end with a non-eventful reserve ride, unless the jumper fails to initiate appropriate EPs. Crazy people loose in the gear room is a paranoid fantasy. An instructor whose student went in probably isn't going to feel like jumping again, but I once watched an instructor who was also a doctor walk back from the landing area with blood up to his elbows--the blood of one of his friends--and after he washed off the blood, he went back to talk to the young jumpers who had come from the other side of the world for his skills camp. He told them they could stop jumping if they felt better about it, but that it would be much harder to get in the airplane the following morning. They kept jumping. We know from experience that making a jump after a fatality--even, and perhaps especially, when it is a friend who has gone in--is therapeutic and healing for those who are left behind. People who walk off the dz after a fatality sometimes never return. And the party had nothing to do with safety procedures. We have one theory that it would have been good public relations to cancel it, and your theory that it is somehow disrespectful to not grieve in a situation where you are not even aware that a fatality has occurred. Finally, even if everyone had known...cancelling the party was not going to make the body turn up any sooner than it did. We're talking about a sport in which death is taken as a given. We know we're going to have a certain number of fatalities in a year, and that it can happen to any of us--even students sign a waiver that says skydiving can result in serious injury and death. To fail to accept the reality of this sport is disrespectful in a way that going on with life in the face of death is not. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Concise, coherent and well worth repeating. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

I don't think it's up to you to speak for what billvon meant. a) It's not for you to put words in his mouth. b) This is a public discussion board. c) You don't get to decide what I post here. d) If he has a problem with my post, he'll let me know. [elided due to degeneration] Wanting to help people in trouble, is not being a narcissistic drama queen. Wanting to help, isn't. "Helping" if you don't have the skills to do it effectively most certainly is. No, but it's how I characterize non-professionals who do more harm than good by thinking that they have to be at the center of the action. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Old jokes reflect the underside of polite society. Smartass. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

WOW, so what happens if your love, your partner, your equal becomes unable to fulfill this "contract" because of a physical impairment - screw him/her because they could not fulfill said obligations.... This is not the 1800's. g That's not what we're talking about. You've gone off on an irrelevant tangent. This discussion is about willful behavior. Well, you did say "can't fulfill the contract", not "won't fulfill the contract" Blues, Dave I also said something else: "I don't want to be married to (or even in a relationship with) someone who doesn't want to have sex with me." The use of "can't" was incorrect. The word "won't" is what I intended. But in the context of my other post, it seems pretty clear what I meant. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

It's not a recent trend. It's as old as time--a rite of passage, as it were. It's just getting publicity these days, whereas in the past, no one talked about it. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

WOW, so what happens if your love, your partner, your equal becomes unable to fulfill this "contract" because of a physical impairment - screw him/her because they could not fulfill said obligations.... This is not the 1800's. g That's not what we're talking about. You've gone off on an irrelevant tangent. This discussion is about willful behavior. Edited to add: My exact words were: "I don't want to be married to (or even in a relationship with) someone who doesn't want to have sex with me." Please take note of the word "want." rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

That's not at all what he said. We dispose of bodies properly because they are a health risk to others, and no one wants their kids to find a body in the woods. You're doing that Granny Smith vs. Satsuma thing again. And there are a lot of us who go out looking, who stop to help, who don't have the attitude you describe. But there's something to be said for letting professionals handle what they do best--I'm sure there are quite a few paralyzed people who might be walking today if some damned do-gooder hadn't moved them. Having the good judgment not to be a narcissistic drama queen (always at the center of every crisis) does have an upside. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

It is established from the start under the theory that if the husband and wife fail to consummate the marriage, such failure is grounds for legal and religious annulment. And failure to continue the sexual relationship thereafter is considered grounds for divorce. (Impotence is a ground for divorce in a number of states, so it doesn't even have to be willful.) I agree with you, though, on all counts. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

I would agree with you, Nick, if the search had not been called off for the night, and if the offer of help had been accepted by the authorities in charge. But the search was called off, and the offer of help was refused. In such a case, what do 300 skydivers who never even laid eyes on the decedent do? Should the next closest dz geographically have shut down? Should we have declared the hours between the time of his assumed death and the recovery of his body a national skydiving day of silence and reflection? It is natural to grieve for friends, and it is natural to feel empathy in the face of tragedy, but if all living comes to a halt with each single death, how much life will anyone have? The facts seem to be, in no particular order: 1. Very few people at the dz knew what happened. 2. The authorities called off the search at dusk. 4. The family and friends of the decedent did not continue the search on their own and/or ask for the help of the skydivers present to do so. 5. The person who offered to help search was refused. 6. The area being searched is not particularly non-hazardous to untrained people. Given the fact pattern, what were they to do? rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Oh. Well if its a law and its been around a while that makes it right I guess? What do you think about laws that dictate the circumstances under which a man can beat his wife? Those have been around for just as long and some are still on the books today in some states. Do you think they are right? They are laws after all... I thought we were having a serious discussion You cant honestly believe that the existance of an archaic law like that means that its our solemn duty to provide sex to our SO whenever they feel like it whether we feel like it or not. First of all, we're not comparing stupid laws, we're talking about the laws that underpin the institution of marriage as we know it. And no, the laws allowing a husband to beat his wife haven't been around anywhere near as long, by a magnitude of order. In the context of the discussion we're having, however, it's not about providing sex whether we feel like it or not. It's about withholding sex and thereby making a loved one miserable. Big difference. For me, it really comes down to: I don't want to be married to (or even in a relationship with) someone who doesn't want to have sex with me. Your wife deals with it. Husky is trying to figure out some way to deal with it. Me, I wouldn't deal with it. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

So sex is a special category apart from all other marital obligations? I totally disagree. You get married with an eye to fulfilling all the obligations or don't bother. It's the same with any other obligation we take on in life--if you can't fulfill the contract, then you've broken the contract. It makes no difference what the deal is. The deal's the the deal. It doesn't sound like he was fulfilling his obligations. I don't know too many women who won't go on loving their husbands if they don't turn into assholes. It is a duty and responsibility that arises out of love and respect for each other. As I said above. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb