georger

You think so? Why don't you start refuting some of those 25 points with facts of your own? I haven't seen that from you. In fact, no one on this thread addressed a single one of them. Just saying they are baloney isn't enough. Where are they? A search didnt find them? You evidently forgot to label them, to make them appear in a search? Are they under one of your Rosewell posts ...? Maybe that's an omen?

A legend in his own mind. Robert, You haven’t made very many converts (yet). It’s a little early to be taking the high-ground. Your “25 points” amount to… 25-points. No kidding! Dont you just love Natural Selection! When all appeared lost! Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ? My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends. Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends, So Lord, Oh lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ? (not written by Robert 'Hat on Head' Blevins)

Crap, I screwed it up. You're right - its CINI. I will change the copy above - thanks for asking! I wonder what his family of origin was - Irish? Is Cini an Irish name? Italian? BTW, someone i spoke withg tonight spoke highly of you saying you are a 'very good' investigator - thought I would pass that on.

Very interesting information in the attachments, G. Thanks. From what I gather there was no exchange of parachutes, no 727 - rather a DC 8 - and no monetary extortion in this case. It sounds like a typical, albeit violent, political skyjacking by a mentally unstable guy. Instead of Cuba he wanted to go to Ireland and fight with the IRA. Am I reading this correctly? If so, it makes Ralph's claims very questionable. Cini claimed to be an IRA member but wasn't. He brought aboard a 12-gauge shotgun under his black overcoat, a 40lb box full of dynamite, and another package containing a parachute! Maybe the tipoff was his ski hat with holes poked through it for eye holes, he declined to take off upon entering. 40 miles out from Calgary he pulled down the ski hat to make a crude mask, pulled the 12-gauge from under his coat and announced he was hijacking the plane, and to make things perfectly clear he fired a blast from the 12-gauge into a cabin partition, he disclosed his box contained dynamite, and he asked for 1.5 million dollars and wanted to go to Ireland. The flight was diverted to Great Falls MT where he was given $50,000 in cash but he ordered the plane airborn again refusing to let anyone off. They headed for Regina but Cinci changed his mind again ordering the plane back to Grt Falls where he let everyone but 6 crew members off. They took on approx 7000 gallons of fuel and Cini ordered the plane aloft again. The pilot convinced Cini they needed more fuel so they set a coarse for Regina. About 15 minutes out Cpt Ehmann got out of his seat and called back telling Cinci he was coming back to talk. Cini allowed it. Cinci said he wanted to get his parachute on so Ehmann told him he wouldnt interfere. Cini set his shotgun down to pick up his chute and Ehmann grabbed him and they wrestled. A purser ran back with a fire axe and hit Cini over the head. They tied Cini up and headed back for Great Falls ... Cini had previously ordered the "DC-8" to be flown at 3000 ft and the emergency door/window opened - he intended to bail through that. Cini: 5'7", black curly hair, swarthy olive skin complexion. Cini was 27 years old, a delivery truck driver who had previously lived in the USA but had gone up to live with his parents at Calgary five years earlier. All of this on Nov 13th 1971, 11 days before the Cooper hijacking. The whole thing a six hour ordeal -

Will try to add to the Wish List tonight. I will suspend all posts until this nonsense has relented - Knoss, Jo, . . .

In his own words: Was a case like this in Wsc years ago - was solved with sound forensic work once the vehicle was found. Came down to distended filament in the right side headlamp (old sealed beam type) ... at just the right angle from point of impact to victim in the ditch, and amount of distension (force) consistent with a hot filament vs lab tests ... with that party confessed (a lady of the evening - a Minister's wife! They lived on the same road but had been passed over in the original investigation.)

First off, you know I do disapprove of your Tina chase, but I appreciate your reply. I cant place Gaylord. The issue is who tried to use a parachute first in an airline hijacking. If it isnt Cini I dont know who it would be. Moreover Cini's attempt was just before Cooper's on 11-13-71. The name Gaylord just doesnt register - in any search. Thanks. G.

after 9:00pm my time. Busy day tomorrow - Want to talk to you.

Tell George I am laughing. Bullroar... OK. I admit its a weak connection but ... somebody needs to go over the interview notes with a fine toothed comb. Govt conspiracy my ass - Tell George he is missing the BIG PICTURE!

and the FBI did in fact investigate airline employees as potential suspects. of course they did - another blow to Blevinsology.

So did Tina's brother - 35 years. (Bet Bruce will shit his pants over that!)

Nature is more gentle with money than people are! Homo sapiens should take a lesson.

Ask Nuttall this: Does he think the Cooper Hijacking had a Cuban connection? Here is a fact: Three members of the group "Republic of New Afrika" who had killed a New Mexico State Policeman on November 8 hijacked TWA Flight 106 on Nov 24 1971, a Boeing 727 flight from Albuquerque to Havana. They landed at Tampa where passengers were released before flying on to Havana. One of the passangers said there was talk about taking the plane to Mexico City ... Ask Nuttall if he thinks Cooper had a Cuban connection?

And the life time of a $20 dollar bill is 18 t0 24 months.The Banks was given the lists with in a week. Jerry and yet 290 of them turned up at Tina Bar 9 years later albeit in somewhat used condition. Not sure why you are giving me the factoid above?

You do realize that you are about the only person who believes that Norjack was a government conspiracy . Thats not quite true. We have had a few here before, and there is one website I wont name which is dominated by those folks, so much so they dont even discuss Cooper any more - they consider it a proven fact the hijacking was a govt conspiracy.

If you put Duane forward as Cooper then EVERYTHING is open for discussion including his disease and its symptoms. We just wont refer to it by name, as ordered by Jo. We wont use the name(s). But, I am sure I saw what looked like holes and pock marks, and a pink band that moved as the day went forward, albeit this thing the Dutchman has made, is less than perfect. a "telescopium"? And of this other thing, the camera obscura, I am sure I see cells in motion. Tiny little darters which move around. There is no doubt they exist and must be there for some reason? We shall not speak of Hypoxia, platelette count, blood chemistry, platlette production and other things at some high altitude, unpressurised, or primary or secondary polycythemia. THAT IS THE WERK OF THE DEVIL which we must avoid, as ordered by whoever is in charge of the candidate concession. 3 for a shilling and the price is in freefall! Write a book ... about rules and allowances. We have been ordered to suspend in our perfect celestial sphere and say nothing, and so we will. I do not want my forehead branded. Let someone else take the risk. It shall not go forward to alter perfection which we have so much of here, and I shall be in avoidance of the task saying that the hijacker was a walled cellular organism raised to 10,000 feet fore some period and then let drop like a stone, and something must have happened inside his cells? Especially if they had some procognition to form blasto cysts in a genetic dance formed pre birth? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_high_altitude_on_humans The physics and the metaphysics shall not be mentioned, in favour of Alchemy. Or something like that. . . adue Goodfellas. adue Candidate Concession two for a $dollar. Copyright©1066 by Magna Carta

I definately bow to your superior wisdom in this area.

Not feeling well at all so I will sit this out - except to say that I want NO more references to Duane Weber's health in 1971. His physical conditions was great and there are 2 snapshots to attest to that except his hair is very salt and pepper. The pictures are poor quality when it come to facial features - but he has a flat abdomen and is quiet muscular. Was swimming laps everyday during that time period in the apt pool. Please refrain from the remarks about PKC and embecile. He may not have had the FORMAL education, but he could work circles around any 46 yr old even when I first met him at the age of 53. Therefore unless you personally knew Duane during these periods of his life - his recently diagnose PKD (in 1970 or 70)meant nothing regarding his physical abilities. You do KNOW there are football players with PKD in its early stages. It was 18 yrs after the Atlanta diagnosis before Duane needed any intervention other than blood pressure medication. It would be 20 yrs from diagnosis before he would be placed on the kidney machine. So GEORGER - do NOT play that CARD - and I need for you all to omit the PDK from your analysis of Weber. Yes, that upsets me and right now I cannot let myself get upset. Having difficulties breathing and I am on heavy medication. If you guys expect me to be quiet - then don't insult my intelligence nor that of the medical field on this. I lived this life - none of you did. I lived with this man for 17 yrs and I know what he was capable of even in those yrs. Before he turned 65 he was evaluated and accepted as a transplant candidate and he turned it down...cost was not the reason, but he would be taking a kidney that should go to a younger person. In Birmingham they took him thru the diaylisis units and introduced him to individuals of all ages on the machine. The younger patients waiting for a transplant pulled at his heart strings - he made his decision based on that and decided to do NO HARM. Taking a kidney might HARM someone much younger than him because he was a better match. He did NOT take that chance....and did what he had been taught. If none of you understand that now you never will. P.S. I got the "joke' about the Chicken... In the 1960-70s there were two recognised types of PKD. Autosomal dominant and recessive PKD. The recessive form presented early and was usually lethal in childhood without treatment. Duane obviously had the Autosomal dominant form. You married Duane in ____ so did not witness Duane before then. You have never presented Duane's medical records from the period prior to knowing you. Very likely there were medical records for Duane in the various institutions where he was incarcerated, and perhaps it was in that context that he was imformed of his condition (not from his family). Autosomal dominant PKD ususally presents by middle age .... Cooper was supposedly middle age. In the endless dialogue about Duane I am astounded nobody has connected Duane's anti social behavior (manifest early) with an underlying physiological pathology. Sometimes the connection is dismissed because as a rule it is no defense in Court. For you to maintain Duane had not manifest physiological symptoms by middle age is tantamount to saying "Duane was a sweet missunderstood guy with NO criminal history!" Duane was not the exception as you say. Duane followed the same PKD prognosis as anyone else would with that condition. There is no reason to suppose otherwise. We have been over this ground before ... TO NO AVAIL! You dispute everything anyone says. So what is the point of discussing Duane at all! The following social-psychological effects usually present by middle age in varying degre: Anxiety, numbness, dissociation and/or inappropriate calmness coupled with mood swings and periods of Anger and frustration. Anti social behaviors. Periods of intense activity with plateau effect; sudden onset of the need for excessive sleep. Swings in metabolic function. Acute stress disorder (ie, distress, memories, avoidance, nightmares, numbing and forgeting). Depression. Post-traumatic symptoms and/or disorder. Avoidance and public or private anxiety. Inability to keep to a normal routine. Often rejects authority or advice, strong need for personal freedom and control until late stages. Duane displayed all of the traits of a person with underlying pathology ... FROM AN EARLY AGE! Duane clearly had aspirations beyond his capacity to perform ... FROM AN EARLY AGE. It is as clear as the day is long that Duane Weber DID NOT have the capacity to be Cooper. He definately had the capacity to be enamored with Cooper as an icon, but this is light years away from having been Cooper himself.

Ok you can stop - Im laughing.

Guru can tell you. I am positive he has trained less capable and less healthy freefall students. Hey, when you gotta make a plane payment... 377 Show me a chicken in a parachute. Chickens canot pull the chord!

well at least this is germane, in a way - not book binding and social advice from Bruce and Blevins Ltd. So Gaylord is a cat! That figures. Bruce does get his 'gaylords" mixed up. Planned in 68. Peak year for the Cuban connection. 70+ in one year, over 100 if you add in attempts and conspiracies broken. One problem with your scenario is the schedule for 11-24 was a late addition, so how can an op in 68 work if the flight doesnt even exist ... they must have layed in wait. [edit] ooops. They add the flight. Got it! "We were not aware of any jumps from a 727 at that time" ??? That's bogus. You know damned well there had been foreign ops from ______________ and ______________ orn. Let's not mention the planning commitee at Tan Son Nhut. That's common knoweldge! Snow even finally ventured in to confirm a piece of that - as you Snow is never wrong, just always very late and terminally incomplete. "Light Snow with snow thunder". So, your scenario is a bit off, fact-wise. But, let's get to the meat of this. Protocols and mission purpose. Why do you pick a North West location? What does that gain you? You know the CIA and Cuba were already negotiating - they had a draft by the end of '68! Revisions 69, 70, and 71 with a continuing agreement to keep working ont his. Other agreements flowed from this to all countries affected. Why in hell do you pull off an Op staged in Portland? You might as well pull of an op in Nome, or at Thule! Explain to me exactly what this op was supposed to accomplish - outside of upsetting a lot of chickens (to say nothing about those ranchers in Montana!). You say Duane was trained. Baloney. How do you "train" an embecile with PKD? I will await any response you care to invent. Im going to go have a nap and dream about . . . owls? One final question I cant resist asking! Did J Edgar know about this. Yes or No?

Arguing over candidates pulled out of the thin air has accomplished nothing. Let's try a different approach, as follows ... (A) Who was Gaylord as quoted by Bruce below? Ralph re-iterated numerous details of the early extortive skyjackings, with the first being conducted by a fellow named Gaylord aboard an Air Canada flight out of Great Falls, Montana two weeks before Cooper’s caper (B) Which cluster does the Cooper hijacking belong to? (Hint: Cuban hijackings peaked in 1968 but were still an active concern clear up to 1980. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of _Cuba-United_States_aircraft_hijackings) (C) Does Kenny or any other candidate have a Cuban connection. Jo Weber hasc laimed Duane had a Cuban connection? (D) Was there a North Western cluster which emerged by 1970 which includes California, Montana, Indaho ... which was different in some fundamental way from say the Cuban hijacking cluster? (E) Did Cooper manifest traits which could be linked to the Cuban cluster? (F) During what year did the Cuban cluster expand to involve previously un affedted areas of the United States? (G) How is Cooper's hijacking unique from all clustering traits, if it is? Himmelsbach says Cooper was a copy cat (but McCoy was not?).

Maybe Tina actually took the money Cooper offered, went up to the Bar later, buried it herself, had the USGS rename the spot, and then entered the nunnery as cover. Not a bad plan. It could happen, right? Blame the way I am on Mother. It's all her fault, trust me on this. http://adventurebooks.newsvine.com/_news/2008/05/11/1482042-its-mothers-day-and-my-mom-is-cooler-than-your-mom You are saying the USGS named Fazio's beach Tina's Bar/Tena Bar ? Where in hell did you get that?

Ralph re-iterated numerous details of the early extortive skyjackings, with the first being conducted by a fellow named Gaylord aboard an Air Canada flight out of Great Falls, Montana two weeks before Cooper’s caper. Who is Gaylord, above? Could Ralph mean "Paul Cini" ? It was Cinci who hijacked an Air Canada flight which landed at Grt Falls, MT. (The guy Cooper supposedly copied). I find no Gaylord mentioned in any hijacking 1968-85. Anyone else have him? Cinci does appear to be the first parachute related hijacking in the USA proximate to the Cooper case. Many followed Cooper but many preceded him also - more than has been noted here at DZ. Between Jan-April 1971 there were five domestic hijackings (more if you include attempts which didnt get airborn but resulted in an arrest). There were at least seven more HJ's between April and November, and 3 more (excluding attempts) after Cooper, closing out a busy year. There were people in the FBI and elsewhere keeping stats, noting clusters, and clusters within clusters. Which cluster does Cooper fit in? (Which cluster would Kenny fit into had he ever hijacked?) Stats seem to suggest that by November of 71 Seattle, Vancouver, Portland, and the area west to Utah and Montana specifically, was a higher than average risk cluster. So, in what sense is Cooper unique but also common, so far as clustering data is concerned? How would Kenny stack up as viewed from a clustering trait viewpoint? Is Cooper really a copy cat and if so in what sense that has meaning? He's one of the first to use a parachute. I will just leave this open . . .

First, Ralph said that Rataczak told him about the easterly flight path nine years after the skyjacking, in 1980 at Ralph’s retirement party from the FBI, which begs the question why the Cooper case agent in Portland never talked directly with the pilot during the earlier portions of the investigation. “It was the first time I had met Bill,” Ralph added, “and we talked for hours. He flew in just to be at my retirement party.” So, it was Rataczak who flew in for Ralph's retirement party, not Scott. Or did they both fly in? Who broached the topic of the East Path first? Scott, Rataczak, Himms? How did Rataczak know he was over the Washougal basin? Who in this case is a Jesuit? 377 is looking ...